VW diesel emissions in the US
Comments
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Does anyone know whether these falsified emissions are to do with the diesels with that rely on the bottles of pish as an additive? If so would it be fair to assume that other car marques that use a similar system ie Peugeot are also likely to be investigated?
Only ask as my jalopy could be up to be replaced with a Peugeot 308 (don't ask). I am trying to push for a Toyota Prius, but the fleet manager made the extraordinary claim that Hybrids were unproven technology. Not unusual for my company who only issued mobile phones last year, because they didn't when the right time to buy them was!!!!!
It effects additive vehicles using Urea as well as normal DPF vehicles.
It is a part of the MED17.5 ECU with internal memory on the microprocessor which enables map switching and I would guess more will come out soon.
Hybrids are not the shiny "awesome" planet saving vehicles people would like to think they are.
Get a small engined petrol car if you want the best chance of economy/planet saving.
Something like the VW Up is a superb example. (seriously)
I don't fancy doing 25k miles a year in a VW Up!.
Any recommendation for a mid to large size car that can do that annual mileage and with a budget of a max £24/5k
I would. Absolutely brilliant car. In fact the best I've owned. Steering, body control and handling are like a big car. Reminds me a lot of a 3 series. And mine has 400 watt Fender designed stereo. Which is actually better than my Sonos. And mine's black, which is so totally cool bro. If there were a Tsi 1.2 in it 25k miles would be smile inducing all the time. But, if someone else is paying, yes, get a Golf.
Anyway, on topic, my other car, the Caravelle 180BiTdi is now implicated.......................My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
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I loved my several laguna's, never had issues with them but they were cheap and cheerful second hand motors.
There are some great BMW deals and you can pick up the audi a5 1.8t very cheaply which is a superb car to cover miles comfortably.
Its gonna be a company car and my firm will not contemplate BMWs or Audis. They think it gives the wrong impression! Rep parking up in a Beemer and all that. I think there are more BMW/Audi rep cars than ever on the road. Also my firm pay cash for their cars!!!! Yes you read that correctly. They pay cash for everything. Do not have anything on credit at all. Madness. I was talking to a Ford salesrep who told me that Wayne Rooney finances his cars. This is someone on £300k a week and has the common sense to realise about vehicle depreciation and keeping money in the bank.
I used to buy cars cash until I found out how expensive it was and now lease purchase or lease them all.
I didn't realise just how much as a business I was losing by paying cash.Living MY dream.0 -
Can someone explain to me why buying cars cash isn't the cheapest way?
I haven't looked into it (never bought or owned a car) but it seems contrary to basic common sense.0 -
Cash is cheaper if you buy a car and keep it for many years (even from new). However if you want a new car every few years then buying new each time is not the way to go because the early depreciation kills you.Can someone explain to me why buying cars cash isn't the cheapest way?
I haven't looked into it (never bought or owned a car) but it seems contrary to basic common sense.
I would never consider buying a new car so for me buying cash is the best option.You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.0 -
Does anyone know whether these falsified emissions are to do with the diesels with that rely on the bottles of pish as an additive? If so would it be fair to assume that other car marques that use a similar system ie Peugeot are also likely to be investigated?
Only ask as my jalopy could be up to be replaced with a Peugeot 308 (don't ask). I am trying to push for a Toyota Prius, but the fleet manager made the extraordinary claim that Hybrids were unproven technology. Not unusual for my company who only issued mobile phones last year, because they didn't when the right time to buy them was!!!!!
It effects additive vehicles using Urea as well as normal DPF vehicles.
It is a part of the MED17.5 ECU with internal memory on the microprocessor which enables map switching and I would guess more will come out soon.
Hybrids are not the shiny "awesome" planet saving vehicles people would like to think they are.
Get a small engined petrol car if you want the best chance of economy/planet saving.
Something like the VW Up is a superb example. (seriously)
Hybrids are one of the biggest cheaters on emissions, they are tested warm when the cat converters work, but run on and off giving the converters no time to get to operating temp.
Well to wheels emissions for hybrids are not as good as for diesel.0 -
Many people fail to look at the negative impacts caused by the making of hybrids, batteries for example are hugely impactive.
I am unable to comment on specifics due to an injunction but this country has some shocking laws and rulings on doing the right thing.Living MY dream.0 -
People don't look at total life cost including manufacture for anything, they only ever see the headline claims. I was told by a large brake manufacturer about the linings they were asked to make by someone. They wanted linings that had completely biodegradable brake dust so they could claim they ran completely green. The brake company said it was possible, but the environmental impact of manufacturing was far higher. The answer was that they didn't care about that as long as they could claim the vehicles were running completely green.Many people fail to look at the negative impacts caused by the making of hybrids, batteries for example are hugely impactive.0 -
When BP had their accidental oil spill Obama was out for British Petroleum's blood despite BP having changed the name to Beyond Petroleum long ago.
Now we find VW has been purposely deceiving people for many years while putting noxious fumes into the air we breath and we haven't heard a peep out of Obama over it.0 -
When BP had their accidental oil spill Obama was out for British Petroleum's blood despite BP having changed the name to Beyond Petroleum long ago.
Now we find VW has been purposely deceiving people for many years while putting noxious fumes into the air we breath and we haven't heard a peep out of Obama over it.
But we know the regulator is likely to fine them many many billions. Whereas, for GM, where that fault actively contributed to people's deaths and was also deliberately withheld, it didn't even reach a billion.My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
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With any luck this scandal will be the beginning of the end of diesel cars. Behind the lies and deceit perpetrated by VW is the even bigger deception- that it's possible to burn a filthy, low grade fuel in an unsuitable application while saving the planet.
Diesel just about makes sense in large applications in ships, railway engines and heavy trucks, as diesel engines work reasonably efficiently at constant speed under heavy load. The clouds of black shite pouring out of the exhausts of even brand new diesel cars explain why air quality isn't improving while cars are supposedly getting cleaner and passing all emissions tests. Governments caved in to pressure from the motor lobby to promote diesel as the slightly better fuel economy supposedly reduced CO2 emissions, ignoring the fact that being marginally more efficient than petrol engines isn't exactly brilliant, and that diesels push out all sorts of other toxic filth.0 -
With any luck this scandal will be the beginning of the end of diesel cars. Behind the lies and deceit perpetrated by VW is the even bigger deception- that it's possible to burn a filthy, low grade fuel in an unsuitable application while saving the planet.
Diesel just about makes sense in large applications in ships, railway engines and heavy trucks, as diesel engines work reasonably efficiently at constant speed under heavy load. The clouds of black shite pouring out of the exhausts of even brand new diesel cars explain why air quality isn't improving while cars are supposedly getting cleaner and passing all emissions tests. Governments caved in to pressure from the motor lobby to promote diesel as the slightly better fuel economy supposedly reduced CO2 emissions, ignoring the fact that being marginally more efficient than petrol engines isn't exactly brilliant, and that diesels push out all sorts of other toxic filth.
It's not really a 'filthy low grade fuel'.
The EN590 diesel standard has been improved dramatically since about 2000. Sulphur levels have been reduced from 2000ppm, to 500, to 350, to 50 to 10 over the last 15 years. Cetane demands have gone up, density and viscosity have come down, to the point where diesel is now quite close to it's next of kin, kerosene or Jet A1.
Today's diesel engines have become very efficient and far, far cleaner than they were even just 10 years ago. Is it clean enough? Seems not.
The market will now change dramatically in a way never seen before. New diesel cars will sit in showrooms and in warehouses, unsold. 2nd hand petrol cars will be snapped up. Demand for new petrol cars may exceed supply.
The French have already announced 2cts on diesel, 2cts off petrol. Car factories will have to retool for petrol. Refineries will have to adjust their crude slate and their equipment to yield more petrol and less diesel. Europe used to export petrol and import diesel. Not anymore.
Heating oil prices will fall, as the excess diesel has to go somewhere.
Big changes, no doubt about it!0 -
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It's not really a 'filthy low grade fuel'.
The EN590 diesel standard has been improved dramatically since about 2000. Sulphur levels have been reduced from 2000ppm, to 500, to 350, to 50 to 10 over the last 15 years. Cetane demands have gone up, density and viscosity have come down, to the point where diesel is now quite close to it's next of kin, kerosene or Jet A1.
Today's diesel engines have become very efficient and far, far cleaner than they were even just 10 years ago. Is it clean enough? Seems not.
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Isn't this the point of the whole VW scandal though, that standards have improved but in real world conditions, diesel vehicles are exceeding them by a factor of 40. It's the inability of diesel engines to achieve those standards that led to VW installing technology to get round them. I still believe the fundamental problem is that diesel is a dirty fuel and you can't burn it cleanly. Attempting to improve emissions just leads to other problems- soot levels from diesel have fallen thanks to particulate filters but those in turn have led to higher nitrogen oxide levels.
If modern diesels are so much better than they were 15 years ago, why are they still pushing out clouds of black filth, and why isn't air quality getting better? Part of the problem is that we're so brainwashed into believing that progress and technology will solve all our problems that we find it hard to believe that sometimes that just isn't the case.0 -
Both are right in reality.
The problem is that our understanding of harmful emissions has changed over recent years, first looking towards Co2 and now understanding NOx and other pollutants.
The truth is, legislation needs to change because although it is illegal to increase emissions on an engine past that of type approval, it isn't policed and no one wants to push on that, even the ministry of transport !!!
Britain is so far behind where we should be, truth is, government, ministers, politicians, social groups etc all are not interested in the matter, the only people interested in it are the media but the crappie way our legal systems work is that as soon as you explain something, the guilty party simply apply for, and get an injunction which for the avoidance of doubt is not really an injunction in these cases, its a legal gagging order.
Hopefully in years to come something will be done about it but right now, people are getting away with crimes our grandchildren will pay for in terms of health and cost.
I hate to say it but if the UK was policed like america on such matters we would not be in the trouble we currently find ourselves in.Living MY dream.0 -
It's not really a 'filthy low grade fuel'.
The EN590 diesel standard has been improved dramatically since about 2000. Sulphur levels have been reduced from 2000ppm, to 500, to 350, to 50 to 10 over the last 15 years. Cetane demands have gone up, density and viscosity have come down, to the point where diesel is now quite close to it's next of kin, kerosene or Jet A1.
Today's diesel engines have become very efficient and far, far cleaner than they were even just 10 years ago. Is it clean enough? Seems not.
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Isn't this the point of the whole VW scandal though, that standards have improved but in real world conditions, diesel vehicles are exceeding them by a factor of 40. It's the inability of diesel engines to achieve those standards that led to VW installing technology to get round them. I still believe the fundamental problem is that diesel is a dirty fuel and you can't burn it cleanly. Attempting to improve emissions just leads to other problems- soot levels from diesel have fallen thanks to particulate filters but those in turn have led to higher nitrogen oxide levels.
If modern diesels are so much better than they were 15 years ago, why are they still pushing out clouds of black filth, and why isn't air quality getting better? Part of the problem is that we're so brainwashed into believing that progress and technology will solve all our problems that we find it hard to believe that sometimes that just isn't the case.[/quote]
I've had a few. The last one that pushed out any smoke was a P reg Audi A4 Avant 110 Tdi. Since then I don't recall one where I've ever seen black smoke come out of the back. Well, save for a Touran 140 Tdi. There was a reason for that mind. Faulty engine. Someone forgot to build it properly so, on a trip to France, oil was making its way into the system resulting in a Batmobile level of smoke whilst stationary. Made tolls and the Eurotunnel a bit embarrassing. Fixed no issue.
I currently have a Caravelle. 180 Bhp BiTurbo. I've never seen any black smoke from it at all. It's also unaffected by the recall. Which makes you think. If VW could make a Euro 5 engine at 180 bhp to power a 2 1/2 tonne van why was it fitting software to measly 1.6 Tdi's?
My theory is they got lazy. Fitted them to the US stuff to pass. Need not have fitted them to the others, but did, just so that they didn't have loads of different software types out there.My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
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bendertherobot, it isn't as simple as that. New software updates will be done via sim card so software types doesnt really matter in terms of work etc.
They wanted to be the best, better than the rest and so they faked results even though they were at the top of the tree, they just wanted the lions share of the market due to sales based off emissions and company fleet sales.
I would still buy a VW, they are brilliant but I am not sure I will buy another diesel, the same to others and yourself when stuck in traffic is vast, in years to come it will be bigger than asbestos damage ever was.Living MY dream.0 -
Isn't this the point of the whole VW scandal though, that standards have improved but in real world conditions, diesel vehicles are exceeding them by a factor of 40. It's the inability of diesel engines to achieve those standards that led to VW installing technology to get round them. I still believe the fundamental problem is that diesel is a dirty fuel and you can't burn it cleanly. Attempting to improve emissions just leads to other problems- soot levels from diesel have fallen thanks to particulate filters but those in turn have led to higher nitrogen oxide levels.
If modern diesels are so much better than they were 15 years ago, why are they still pushing out clouds of black filth, and why isn't air quality getting better? Part of the problem is that we're so brainwashed into believing that progress and technology will solve all our problems that we find it hard to believe that sometimes that just isn't the case.
The target is a moving one.
First it was sulphur due to acid rain. So they got rid of that.
Then it's CO2 'cos of global warming - so engine efficiency improves dramatically - lower consumption.
Then it's particulates, which have reduced alot due to better fuel and better engines.
Now it's Nox, which is a tricky one, as it's incompatible with above, (efficiency) as higher combustion temperatures = higher Nox.
Modern diesels ARE WAY better than 15 years ago - they do not emit black smoke any more. Air quality struggles to improve as we are all simply driving more.
And don't think petrol engines are all light and love. A component, benzene is highly carcinogenic, they emit CO2 just like other engines, and also have particulates, albeit lower. Volatile hydrocarbons (what you smell when you fill up) are not good for you either.
There will now be a massive move away from diesels. But is seems a shame when they have become so good. I am no health expert, so I cannot say how bad Nox's are, but don't think that by us all going to petrol, 'we're all alright now'.0 -
As the owner of a brand new Skoda Octavia Vrs I'm pretty annoyed with the whole thing. I've not checked my vin yet so not 100% affected. Luckily I got it on lease hire so couldn't care less about the resale value! Dodged a bullet.
Still an amazing car though even with the issues around the diesel engine.0 -
Ironically it may be the ideal time to buy a diesel.There will now be a massive move away from diesels. But is seems a shame when they have become so good. I am no health expert, so I cannot say how bad Nox's are, but don't think that by us all going to petrol, 'we're all alright now'.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
VTEC am I right in saying that with the ever increasing pressure on reducing CO2 that there is a move towards direct port injection for petrol engines which in turn result in increased particulate matter and the resultant need for GPF,s?0
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VTEC am I right in saying that with the ever increasing pressure on reducing CO2 that there is a move towards direct port injection for petrol engines which in turn result in increased particulate matter and the resultant need for GPF,s?
Direct injection is the method of choice on modern engines but it is costly hence why many prefer multi point etc.
GDI for petrol does lower emissions but I am unsure if we know enough about the dangers of other pollutants.
DPDI (CRDI) for diesel as with gasoline plumbs directly into the head but injectors are more costly, run higher pressures but cooling is aided but again, pollutants that are harmful are IMO not tested enough to see the true dangers.
Basically the common theory is that you change the fuel from a liquid into to spray.
Imagine it like a can of hairspray, if you put a match to the end whilst pressing the top you get a huge burn, the reason is that the particles spread and so burn easier with the better fuel/air mixture.
We do have alternatives, hydrogen fuel cells (proton exchange membrane) but how would we tax the system ? without tax how would governments operate ?
I really do no think that this issue is about saving the planet, it is IMO about feeding the coffers which in reality does need to happen.
It is just that we won't see an end to gasoline/diesel until we find a taxable service to replace it.Living MY dream.0 -
VTEC am I right in saying that with the ever increasing pressure on reducing CO2 that there is a move towards direct port injection for petrol engines which in turn result in increased particulate matter and the resultant need for GPF,s?
Yes, seems DI is not all a bed of roses. From what I can gather, DI can 'splash' fine droplets of fuel onto the piston head or cylinder wall and not burn perfectly, thereby creating soot and particulates.
Indirect injection (in the intake manifold) has the advantage of more time to correctly vaporise and mix with the air.
However, DI does have many advantages, such as better control of fuel volumes, etc.
So once again, petrol engines also emit particulates, finer and less than diesel, but no less dangerous.0 -
Bernie's got it -VOCs are going to be the NOx. They are not such a problem today because of....all that diesel. VOCs are something else the US has regulated differently to the UK.
As for refineries restructuring - they have just finished a 25 year cycle of doing that in reaction to the decline of gasoline and increase in diesel. As for crudes - well I wonder why the interest in Libya and Syria all of a sudden.0 -
Does all this really matter when the Australian Government has given permission for the world's biggest coal mine to be created? This will produce 128.4 million tonnes of CO2 (carbon dioxide) a year by selling the vast majority of the coal produced to India - a country not renowned for its green credentials. China is wanting to increase its limits on CO2 production too. If you look at the global picture there are far more worrying trends out there.
So what if a few cars globally produce a 'bit more' NOx and CO2 than they said. We feign horror when we learn that a multinational company has been lying to us. It's nothing new. Get a grip people, our leaders and politicians lie to us every single day and we mostly put up with it. Yes, so VW should get their knuckles rapped for this but for the US to bring spurious law suits against VW for manslaughter and the rest is ridiculous.
Yes, I'm a VW fan. I've had many over the last 30 years. Now on a diesel Skoda. Would I buy another VW based car. Yes, I probably would. They are well made. Economical. Cheap to fix. Last for years and years. I'd rather have a slightly dirty car I'd keep for 15 years than a cleaner one that would need changing after 5 or 6. Just look at the total carbon footprint for each scenario to see what has less impact.
Petrol is probably the way forward. Small 1.2 liter Ultraboost engines putting out 160bhp and doing 50+ mpg. Tech is not quite there yet but given time it will be.Sometimes. Maybe. Possibly.
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I remember doing a design for a gas fired power plant some years ago - basically an aero jet engine in a power plant. No end of kit to get NOx compliant, none of which seem to be fitted under wing.0
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Does all this really matter when the Australian Government has given permission for the world's biggest coal mine to be created? This will produce 128.4 million tonnes of CO2 (carbon dioxide) a year by selling the vast majority of the coal produced to India - a country not renowned for its green credentials. China is wanting to increase its limits on CO2 production too. If you look at the global picture there are far more worrying trends out there.
So what if a few cars globally produce a 'bit more' NOx and CO2 than they said. We feign horror when we learn that a multinational company has been lying to us. It's nothing new. Get a grip people, our leaders and politicians lie to us every single day and we mostly put up with it. Yes, so VW should get their knuckles rapped for this but for the US to bring spurious law suits against VW for manslaughter and the rest is ridiculous.
Yes, I'm a VW fan. I've had many over the last 30 years. Now on a diesel Skoda. Would I buy another VW based car. Yes, I probably would. They are well made. Economical. Cheap to fix. Last for years and years. I'd rather have a slightly dirty car I'd keep for 15 years than a cleaner one that would need changing after 5 or 6. Just look at the total carbon footprint for each scenario to see what has less impact.
Petrol is probably the way forward. Small 1.2 liter Ultraboost engines putting out 160bhp and doing 50+ mpg. Tech is not quite there yet but given time it will be.
A lot of sense in that, but the thing with vehicle emissions is that they're very close to us, every day. You are often just feet away from a car's tailpipe, and the nasties have no time to dissipate. You therefore breathe them in.
Power stations, coal mines, etc. (and Britain has several dirty ones of both) are polluters, but at least it's a lot further from your lungs.
All this reminds me of when I used to commute from Richmond to Oxford Circus by bike every day, about 8 miles each way I think. Was from 1992 to 2000. I would get home with a film of black filth over my face that I could literally scrape off with my fingernails. God only knows how much crap I breathed in in those 8 years.0 -
My understanding is that's where the NOx is killing people and causing breathing difficulties in the short term whilst CO2 and greenhouse gases are more of a long term problem. Vast oversimplification I know.A lot of sense in that, but the thing with vehicle emissions is that they're very close to us, every day. You are often just feet away from a car's tailpipe, and the nasties have no time to dissipate. You therefore breathe them in.0 -
My understanding is that's where the NOx is killing people and causing breathing difficulties in the short term whilst CO2 and greenhouse gases are more of a long term problem. Vast oversimplification I know.A lot of sense in that, but the thing with vehicle emissions is that they're very close to us, every day. You are often just feet away from a car's tailpipe, and the nasties have no time to dissipate. You therefore breathe them in.
NOx causes a slight haze over Los Angeles for wealthy Americans, big problem for the Americans. CO2 leads to millions of poor Asians displaced due to rising sea water, no problem for the Americans. Is that a simplification too?
Emissions are not just emissions...0 -
The diesel scandal can only be a good thing regardless of whether diesel can be made clean or not. It will either push manufacturers to work harder at reducing another emission from fossil fuels and if they can't another fuel will come forward.
It looks like VW have lost the US market for decades and in China, the other growth market, sales are on the retreat. Bad news for VW but good news for other manufacturers like Toyota. They are backing hydrogen powered vehicles. Elon Musk might not like them but the problem with his electric cars are the energy losses through sending power through the power grid.
http://electrical-engineering-portal.com/total-losses-in-power-distribution-and-transmission-lines-1
About 22.5%.
If you make hydrogen at the power station though electrolysis you don't loose so much energy. you just have to transport it via tanker as liquid fuels are currently transported so the infrastructure is here already. And the only emission is water - from which the hydrogen came.
My sympathies are with the other manufacturers who have invested in diesel and are now going to struggle to sell any. I think they should be looking at compensation claims.0 -
The diesel scandal can only be a good thing regardless of whether diesel can be made clean or not. It will either push manufacturers to work harder at reducing another emission from fossil fuels and if they can't another fuel will come forward.
It looks like VW have lost the US market for decades and in China, the other growth market, sales are on the retreat. Bad news for VW but good news for other manufacturers like Toyota. They are backing hydrogen powered vehicles. Elon Musk might not like them but the problem with his electric cars are the energy losses through sending power through the power grid.
http://electrical-engineering-portal.com/total-losses-in-power-distribution-and-transmission-lines-1
About 22.5%.
If you make hydrogen at the power station though electrolysis you don't loose so much energy. you just have to transport it via tanker as liquid fuels are currently transported so the infrastructure is here already. And the only emission is water - from which the hydrogen came.
My sympathies are with the other manufacturers who have invested in diesel and are now going to struggle to sell any. I think they should be looking at compensation claims.[/quote]
Good luck with that
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Good luck with that
Might be a difficult one to win but you would start by pointing out those 11M cars were not fit for sale and would have been sold if VW had not cheated. Therefore the market would have been open to other manufacturers. You would expect them to get roughly their market share of those sales where they had a competing product.0
