VW diesel emissions in the US
Comments
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Actually, the "lead" in teh LIBRO case got 14 years here in the UK. http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2015/08/03/how-libor-trader-tom-hayess-14-year-jail-term-stacks-up-against-others/[url=http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=19708726#p19708726]Arthur Scrimshaw[/url] wrote:Our government don't act. I've been personally working on a case where a company is massively increasing emissions and when I went to publicise it I had an injunction slapped on me with a 2 year custodial sentence tied to it. Trust me, the system is corrupt.
A couple of people on this forum know what I'm referring to and I would love to publicise it but I can't. These people are protected by the law I thought should protect the average person on the street.
I went to the MP local to the company who can't get me an appointment for 19 months !!
Exactly, the reasons the US tackles this is because no one is above the law in the States, when Enron went down the tubes the CEO was led away in handcuffs, did you see that happening to any Barclay's executives after LIBOR? The CEO of the food company responsible for a Salmonella outbreak in the States just got sentenced to 20 plus years in jail, again wouldn't happen here would it?Fitter....healthier....more productive.....0 -
Difficult for me to see how a manufacturer like VW Audi seems to have to do this to pass the test, but the diesel V8 lumps Ford etc use in the US in the 150 pick ups etc meet the emissions standards.0
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Doesn't surprise me one bit. All manufacturers claimed mpg figures are complete fiction as well, done in a lab and impossible to replicate in the real world. My wife recently bought a brand new car, claimed mpg 57. Real world it's 39, even on a long journey at 55-65mph which should be around optimum it will only do 44mpg.
I guess that doesn't matter though as its only lying to consumers, the emissions scam is costing governments money so it's a whole different ball game. I don't like diesels anyway and have only ever had one, sounded like a bag of nails in the engine bay.0 -
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Cyclists should prefer petrol over diesel given the toxins etc in diesel.
I usually just go with porridge before setting off, but each to their own!www.conjunctivitis.com - a site for sore eyes0 -
I don't get it are people basically stopping buying diesels then?
I've been on the look out for an E350 soft top, maybe time to get the cheque book out and grab a bargain.0 -
If the car is under 6 years old and the original purchaser is still the owner, then they can make a claim under consumer legislation "not as as described". The claim would be refund less benefit of use. Any finance company would be jointly liable.
Its highly unlikely that someone would get two years for contempt of court / breaking an injunction.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/contempt_of_court/
I wouldn't advise it though - even nod, nod, wink wink disclosures could get you in trouble.
I received another notice today informing me that they are making a claim in the high court of me breaching the order 8) I honestly don't mind, I would find it hard for a judge to send me to jail for telling the truth. After all, the injunction they took out was made to allow them to commit crimes which can easily be confirmed.
My point is that in the UK, if you are broke you have no chance, I have spent a small fortune fighting someone trying to hush me up in order for them to commit further crimes which has netted them millions over the past 2 years.Living MY dream.0 -
If you are broke, then get legal aid, if not you soon will be with that approach. If you are being serious then don't leave it for the judge to decide. Some judge granted the order, if you breached it, its contempt, your desire to seek justice for all is admirable, but it won't stop you getting taken to the cleaners. The fact its in high court means its worth many thousands. Costs alone could run to 5 or 6k just for you to get slapped.0
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If you are broke, then get legal aid, if not you soon will be with that approach. If you are being serious then don't leave it for the judge to decide. Some judge granted the order, if you breached it, its contempt, your desire to seek justice for all is admirable, but it won't stop you getting taken to the cleaners. The fact its in high court means its worth many thousands. Costs alone could run to 5 or 6k just for you to get slapped.
Its in the millions.
My point about being broke was aimed at the average man, if you didn't have stacks in the bank you would be ruined and even then you can be ruined. My position is an impossible one and one that has made me laugh on this very forum over the past 2 years as people have judged me as money based when the truth was that I refused more money than most people would make in a lifetime because I wouldn't break the law, that has ended up with me having gagging orders placed on me by the other side to stop me mentioning their name.
It doesn't really matter, the truth is now out there and with the recent VW scandal it will only fuel the fire of these people and hopefully they get their just deserts.Living MY dream.0 -
[quote="Slowmart"
The point the revenue will make is that it's not retrospective claw back and the tax has always been due on vehicles with certain levels of emissions.
[/quoute]
but the emissions duty/"tax" has always been due on vehicles with certain levels of CO2 emissions, not NOX emissions, so they cant do anything about it.0 -
So it's solely the Nox output thats been coded to run in a lean way when under test?
Tell me more please as I have a lay persons understanding of the emissions and didn't consider that the code modelling was chemical specific.“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”
Desmond Tutu0 -
So it's solely the Nox output thats been coded to run in a lean way when under test?
Tell me more please as I have a lay persons understanding of the emissions and didn't consider that the code modelling was chemical specific.
The factual reporting isn't great on this issue. There seems to be no clear analysis of what it means for the UK. My gut instinct is that these were Euro 5 cars (where sold in the EU) and had to meet a level of 180 Nox (compared to the level of 31 in the US). That's an enormous difference. I cannot see that a EU car, properly tested, will fail it certification. But we'll see.
As to CO2. It's a by product of engine use. I'd be surprised if Co2 levels weren't decreased when running in safe mode.My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
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This probably explains why a 6.7L V10 Triton can pass.0
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The Americans use throttle limiting also. I will post some data later for anyone interested.Living MY dream.0
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The rumour is that the original piece of software for detecting the test condition was written because the ESC would go on the fritz if the car were on rollers. My bet is that some engine calibration engineer has heard about this by the coffee machine and had a chat with the chassis cal guy to get him/her to let the ECU know when the stability control has gone into this test state.
The test conditions are well defined, so as far as the actual injection strategy in the ECU is concerned I'd imagine a bit of fiddling with rail pressures and injection timing would be enough to achieve the desired effect. So far as I know the affected engines do not have a urea tank so the fuel injection would be the simplest way to achieve it.
I could easily imagine a scenario where none of the members of the senior management team responsible for signing off the ECU/chassis control code would be aware that this was happening. The engine cal team would have been tasked with achieving the emissions standard; if the driveability was OK and the standard had been met in-house and during homologation no-one would ask many questions.- - - - - - - - - -
On Strava.{/url}0 -
The Americans use throttle limiting also. I will post some data later for anyone interested.
Yes would like to see.
Fuel injection limiting? My engine experience is limited (I worked for a number of years on OE fuel injection testing for trucks) but do diesels not run with excess air at all times?- - - - - - - - - -
On Strava.{/url}0 -
This probably explains why a 6.7L V10 Triton can pass.
that runs on "gas" so the 3 way cat converter looks after it. The V8 7.2l lump used as an alternate is diesel, but it is not a car subject to the same rules, it is a truck, and I think that means it has to meet a NOx limit based on output per BHP, not mileage!0 -
So it's solely the Nox output thats been coded to run in a lean way when under test?
Tell me more please as I have a lay persons understanding of the emissions and didn't consider that the code modelling was chemical specific.
The use of emission to cover so many different things does confuse - in Europe it is shorthand for CO2 as far as cars go, in the US the EPA has yet to define CO2 as a pollutant and emissions are therefore solely the other factors such as NOx, CO, unburnt hydrocarbons and SOx. The emissions pressure i Europe has largely been green house gas and carbon led, in the US smog led.
Generally all petrol engines in the US fool the tests by using oxygenates in the gasoline, a fuel additive that enables the EPA tests to be passed under test conditions, but are thought to lead to increased emissions as a whole. The whole oxygenates thing is a circle between what fuels result in best emissions during tests and then mandating that fuel. Hence oxygenates are mandated despite studies showing that they do not produce the same benefit in every day driving as the test procedures, but no settings to the cars are changed.
The other aspect of this is that petrol engines are far from clean too - both sides of the pond they meet the emissions tests because the tests are done with engines already warmed up and hot, and therefore the cat converters at running temperature. When in the UK it is said that the decrease in NOx in city air does not track down with tighter diesel standards, they overlook the massive contribution made by cold petrol engines doing short trips where the NOx removal is not functioning.
It is all smoke and mirrors. If you want cleaner air, use less fuel. Get a bike
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Car makers fudge test figures to get better results shock.
But European governments also gaming it? Is that the sound of falling cards I hear?
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/24/uk-france-and-germany-lobbied-for-flawed-car-emissions-tests-documents-reveal?CMP=fb_gu0 -
I've seen a couple of references to urea in this thread. Last night on the TV there was an 'expert' and he was asked...
"why can't the cars always run at the test conditions, if they are so good at this point?"
His reply...
"because it was done by adding urea, and the car would be filling up with it all the time the same as the fuel"
(this was the gist, as far as I recall).
I'm interested to know.
Urea is a solid, how does it get into the engine, how much and where it's kept. Someone mentioned above that these cars didn't use urea, someone else mentioned 'adblue'(?) which is on other makes. Can someone explain it please?
The older I get, the better I was.0 -
I've seen a couple of references to urea in this thread. Last night on the TV there was an 'expert' and he was asked...
"why can't the cars always run at the test conditions, if they are so good at this point?"
His reply...
"because it was done by adding urea, and the car would be filling up with it all the time the same as the fuel"
(this was the gist, as far as I recall).
I'm interested to know.
Urea is a solid, how does it get into the engine, how much and where it's kept. Someone mentioned above that these cars didn't use urea, someone else mentioned 'adblue'(?) which is on other makes. Can someone explain it please?
It's a liquid in adblue form. You put it in a 10 litre (ish) tank in the boot. It sprays into the exhaust and neutralises Nox particles. Lasts about 10k miles. Then you refill. Most lorries have it now. Have a look in motorway service stations for the big adblue pumps.
The Mercs and BMW's (? juries out) had this in the US. It works. That's what caused them to look at VW. The scientists couldn't understand how VW had the same emissions without the urea system.
Adblue is a pain mind. The pump nozzles don't quite fit a car. Pump switches off quickly. I used to sit there putting 5p in, pump clicks, 5p in etc. A tank was about £11 per 10k miles. You can get it in bottle form but it's corrosive so you need to take care. OR your dealer will do it for about 70 quid.............
Anyway, the UK press (and Slater Gordon solicitors) still aren't presenting the facts properly. The US decided to target Nox and not Co2. The US don't see Co2 as a pollutant. The EU decided to target Co2 as a pollutant (with lip service to Nox).
So, in relation to the affected engines in the UK the question will be, without the software, would they have met Euro 4 or Euro 5 (depending on year) emissions. Given that the Nox levels are (removed decimal points) 180 and 250 respectively compared to the US level of 31, the answer is likely to be yes. No issue with the cars being illegal to drive.
Next question is would the software device have had an effect on CO2. Answer, probably, so would that result in a recategorisation of them for VED purposes. Answer? Maybe. But very hard to do retrospectively now.
In the EU we now have Euro 6. One of the only ways to meet that on larger engines is ablue. So they are all getting it.My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
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i ve peugeot hire car with adblue, whilst waiting for my new company car skoda greenline, the skoda matches the peugeot WITHOUT adblue.... same size engines and pretty much emmisions too.
i think this cover up will be across all the veedub range and probably across all euro 6 cars without adblue.
fwiw peugeot will refill the 10l adblue tank for 9.99 whilst you wait.0 -
i ve peugeot hire car with adblue, whilst waiting for my new company car skoda greenline, the skoda matches the peugeot WITHOUT adblue.... same size engines and pretty much emmisions too.
i think this cover up will be across all the veedub range and probably across all euro 6 cars without adblue.
fwiw peugeot will refill the 10l adblue tank for 9.99 whilst you wait.
Engine size? Nox or co2 matching?My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
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i ve peugeot hire car with adblue, whilst waiting for my new company car skoda greenline, the skoda matches the peugeot WITHOUT adblue.... same size engines and pretty much emmisions too.
i think this cover up will be across all the veedub range and probably across all euro 6 cars without adblue.
fwiw peugeot will refill the 10l adblue tank for 9.99 whilst you wait.
Engine size? Nox or co2 matching?
nox/particulates 0.062 / 0.000 g/km Peugeot 1.6 120bhp CO2 90 g/km c/w adblue
nox/particulates 0.054 / 0.000 g/km Skoda 1.6 110bhp CO2 82 g/km no adblue
So how can VW group vehicles do this without adblue ?
i think they did this fiddle whilst waiting for their adblue range to come on line and i dont think this was a bunch of engineers tucked away somewhere making their own decisions either.0 -
i ve peugeot hire car with adblue, whilst waiting for my new company car skoda greenline, the skoda matches the peugeot WITHOUT adblue.... same size engines and pretty much emmisions too.
i think this cover up will be across all the veedub range and probably across all euro 6 cars without adblue.
fwiw peugeot will refill the 10l adblue tank for 9.99 whilst you wait.
Engine size? Nox or co2 matching?
nox/particulates 0.062 / 0.000 g/km Peugeot 1.6 120bhp CO2 90 g/km c/w adblue
nox/particulates 0.054 / 0.000 g/km Skoda 1.6 110bhp CO2 82 g/km no adblue
So how can VW group vehicles do this without adblue ?
i think they did this fiddle whilst waiting for their adblue range to come on line and i dont think this was a bunch of engineers tucked away somewhere making their own decisions either.
Well, they can do it with greater efficiency, different software etc. The Skoda has less power. So the processing of Nox might be related to that. Or they cheated. It can be done remember. And the 1.6 diesel is only nominally in the frame at the moment. Bear in mind that, if the Skoda has cheated, it still has 0.026 leeway before it fails Euro 6.My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
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i ve peugeot hire car with adblue, whilst waiting for my new company car skoda greenline, the skoda matches the peugeot WITHOUT adblue.... same size engines and pretty much emmisions too.
i think this cover up will be across all the veedub range and probably across all euro 6 cars without adblue.
fwiw peugeot will refill the 10l adblue tank for 9.99 whilst you wait.
Engine size? Nox or co2 matching?
nox/particulates 0.062 / 0.000 g/km Peugeot 1.6 120bhp CO2 90 g/km c/w adblue
nox/particulates 0.054 / 0.000 g/km Skoda 1.6 110bhp CO2 82 g/km no adblue
So how can VW group vehicles do this without adblue ?
i think they did this fiddle whilst waiting for their adblue range to come on line and i dont think this was a bunch of engineers tucked away somewhere making their own decisions either.
Well, they can do it with greater efficiency, different software etc. The Skoda has less power. So the processing of Nox might be related to that. Or they cheated. It can be done remember. And the 1.6 diesel is only nominally in the frame at the moment. Bear in mind that, if the Skoda has cheated, it still has 0.026 leeway before it fails Euro 6.
yeah well, its more than likely that without adblue they ll fail miserably, why else are they introducing adblue models right now?
i think the testing either/and the EU or UK do will be the acid test... so to speak.0 -
mamba80 wrote:why else are they introducing adblue models right now?
i think the testing either/and the EU or UK do will be the acid test... so to speak.
They're introducing it because it makes it easier to pass. Indeed, without it may make it impossible to pass.
It's not being introduced either. Some models have had it for years already.
There's some other stuff going on as well. Adblue gets added to the exhaust gas to lower emissions. However, depending on where the DPF is, some cars achieve a burn off of particulates with higher temps. So there's a lot of complexity to the situation. The absence of adblue doesn't' neccesarily mean that there's cheating.My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
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mamba80 wrote:why else are they introducing adblue models right now?
i think the testing either/and the EU or UK do will be the acid test... so to speak.
They're introducing it because it makes it easier to pass. Indeed, without it may make it impossible to pass.
thats my point, imho they cheated with the s/w (the skoda being one example) whilst new adblue or similar methods come on stream, basically in a lot of cases the new regs came out a year or 2 early, for at least VW.0 -
mamba80 wrote:why else are they introducing adblue models right now?
i think the testing either/and the EU or UK do will be the acid test... so to speak.
They're introducing it because it makes it easier to pass. Indeed, without it may make it impossible to pass.
thats my point, imho they cheated with the s/w (the skoda being one example) whilst new adblue or similar methods come on stream, basically in a lot of cases the new regs came out a year or 2 early, for at least VW.
They may have cheated. They may not. There are other ways of passing. Also remember that, if a car was type approved as Euro 6 then, if it is not, depending on a series of dates, it may just get reclassified as Euro 5. Euro 6 only applies to sales from 1st September 2015 though, of course, type certification would have been carried out earlier. This is very different to the US where those cars are legally undriveable. Here it may just be that they are either more polluting but same category, or more polluting and a different one. There are likely to be very few cheaty Euro 6 cars.My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
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Urea is a solid, how does it get into the engine, how much and where it's kept. Someone mentioned above that these cars didn't use urea, someone else mentioned 'adblue'(?) which is on other makes. Can someone explain it please?
It's a liquid in adblue form. You put it in a 10 litre (ish) tank in the boot. It sprays into the exhaust and neutralises Nox particles. Lasts about 10k miles. Then you refill. Most lorries have it now. Have a look in motorway service stations for the big adblue pumps.
Thanks Bender, very interesting.
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