Forum home Road cycling forum The cake stop

VW diesel emissions in the US

arthur_scrimshawarthur_scrimshaw Posts: 2,596
edited May 2016 in The cake stop
Well of all the carmakers to be caught fixing emission data, I'd have put VW at the end of the list. I wonder how widespread this is?
«1345

Posts

  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 16,830
    I would imagine that it is fairly widely spread.

    My initial tangent thought is - Haven't the Americans just found the best way possible to import money. Simply "fine" large foreign multinationals. VW is just the most recent on the list. Who is next? :twisted:
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • It opens a big old can of worms however you look at it, commentators are comparing it to the LIBOR fixing scam and a class action case is being raised to support all the buyers of these cars. Diesels aren't popular in the US and so it could have been much worse however it's been promoted very heavily in Europe and in particular in the UK where the government (under Blair's watch) heavily promoted it, the change to VED favoured diesels as they generally perform better on CO2 emissions while seeming to ignore the other nasties deisels put out.
  • Given that most diesels perform broadly similarly in lab tests I'd imagine this is the tip of the iceberg.
    My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
    https://twitter.com/roubaixcc
    Facebook? No. Just say no.
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    I would imagine that it is fairly widely spread.

    My initial tangent thought is - Haven't the Americans just found the best way possible to import money. Simply "fine" large foreign multinationals. VW is just the most recent on the list. Who is next? :twisted:


    The problem is massive and it's been known about for some time. The internal flash microprocessor was the start of this where several maps could be used for various data readings. When the OBD is plugged into, the map alters lowering emissions which is ideal when testing for MOT emissions but doesn't show true pollutants.

    Expect huge news these coming weeks, it's about time emissions were looked at properly as the damage to health is vast. Too often the police and relevant sectors allow laws to be broken and fail to act because they "don't understand" the technology but this is no excuse.
    When a car is actually producing many hundreds of times the pollutants your told it does, you can begin to imagine the harm its doing.
    Living MY dream.
  • diydiy Posts: 6,680
    From what I read this was a little more fraudulent than tuning the engine map to perform well in the test range. After all there are plenty of devices designed to meet noise and emission controls in the testing sweet spot.

    However, what happened here apparently is that given the car's electronic stability controls would go mental with the wheels spinning on a dyno while the other wheels were stationary etc.. they added software that would detect the car was being tested (ground speed, air pressure, temp etc). This test mode would make the car function normally on the test rig. What they also did, is throttle up all the particulate collectors to max out the cars emissions controls, once the car was moving on a road, the controls would set back to normal which put out 10-40 times more emissions than was allowed.

    They are complaining that the controls where specifically designed to cheat the test.
  • I would imagine that it is fairly widely spread.

    My initial tangent thought is - Haven't the Americans just found the best way possible to import money. Simply "fine" large foreign multinationals. VW is just the most recent on the list. Who is next? :twisted:


    The problem is massive and it's been known about for some time. The internal flash microprocessor was the start of this where several maps could be used for various data readings. When the OBD is plugged into, the map alters lowering emissions which is ideal when testing for MOT emissions but doesn't show true pollutants.

    Expect huge news these coming weeks, it's about time emissions were looked at properly as the damage to health is vast. Too often the police and relevant sectors allow laws to be broken and fail to act because they "don't understand" the technology but this is no excuse.
    When a car is actually producing many hundreds of times the pollutants your told it does, you can begin to imagine the harm its doing.

    I really hope you're right and this isn't buried or some whitewash investigation carried out. As you say the risk to public health is vast.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 16,830
    VW = Audi, Skoda and Seat. Possibly also Porsche.
    Then I'd look at the direct competition. If you can compete with a cheat then chances are........
    Then I'd look at the rest.
    Tip of the iceberg as has been said.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    Everyone is doing it (or at least every diesel test I have done over the years proves a definite difference between advertised and actual)

    The problem with VW is that the coding exists within their scope. It isn't as simple as a single drive wheel as this would cause faults with the drivetrain. The issue was that during a test which takes chassis off the OBD port and then enters the test mode for emissions the mapping changed, this was a deliberate attempt to defraud which is as mentioned above by DIY. This isn't out of the norm though, manufacturers do run "dyno mode" which adds fuel for when the car is on the dyno to make the engines run rich, this is to avoid them running lean and detonating which isn't the same thing as deliberately trying to scam emissions results.
    The reason VW are first picked is because theirs is the opposite, theirs run lean during these tests so as to make them look cleaner but truth is they are not.
    For obvious reasons I can post manufacturers here but I am directly involved in a huge legal case at the moment where emissions as in question and to a massive level yet so far, the UK court system have failed to assist and allowed the laws to be broken, we have been giving this information to the courts for 18 months now !!!!!

    I think now the media is behind it, people will act but I have personally been involved with the driving agencies, environmental control and emissions law bodies and as of todays date, the only people interested have been a TV show and 2 newspapers.
    Living MY dream.
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 24,676 Lives Here
    They are all at it in some way shape or form, I would be far more surprised if a manufacturer wasn't fiddling and cheating test results. As Vtech said it's been known about for some time, I'm surprised something like this hasn't come out before.

    As I was writing Vtech has posted again. I suspect there will be more interest now as he says.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 23,215
    It opens a big old can of worms however you look at it, commentators are comparing it to the LIBOR fixing scam

    The Armstrong comparison has already been made but I'd say it compares much closer to the 50% heamatocrit rule. i.e as long as you can get the level low enough for the test (using software or a saline drip) it doesnt matter what it is the rest of the time
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Wow, scandalous, and very un-German!

    We have a recent VW Caddy diesel, and I'm wondering if there could be a class action against VW, given that the car was sold under fraudulent terms.

    In any case, I guess they will be recalling almost all diesels worldwide for a re-chip/map, but that's just a PitA for me to take the car in, and get no benefit in return.

    For years, we have all known that consumption figures have been highly suspect - extremely difficult if not impossible to achieve in the real world. Have they been fiddling those too?
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 7,674
    In any case, I guess they will be recalling almost all diesels worldwide for a re-chip/map, but that's just a PitA for me to take the car in, and get no benefit in return.
    Worse than that - it will inevitably mean reduced performance, and I wouldn't be surprised at worse fuel consumption too.
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 24,676 Lives Here
    For years, we have all known that consumption figures have been highly suspect - extremely difficult if not impossible to achieve in the real world. Have they been fiddling those too?
    I would expect everything that can be fiddled to give the consumer the impression of an advantage is being fiddled. Anything other than that would be a surprise to me. The best a consumer can hope for is that everyone is doping to the same extent so it's a level playing field as it were.
  • nicklousenicklouse Posts: 81,520 Lives Here

    In any case, I guess they will be recalling almost all diesels worldwide for a re-chip/map, but that's just a PitA for me to take the car in, and get no benefit in return.
    why? it only effects the lower US NOX numbers not the higher EU ones.
    "Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
    Parktools :?:SheldonBrown

  • In any case, I guess they will be recalling almost all diesels worldwide for a re-chip/map, but that's just a PitA for me to take the car in, and get no benefit in return.
    why? it only effects the lower US NOX numbers not the higher EU ones.

    Are you certain that there's been no malpractice in Europe too? If they've done it in the US, then why not in Europe? Not necessarily just for Nox, but could be for other emissions, or consumption.
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    In any case, I guess they will be recalling almost all diesels worldwide for a re-chip/map, but that's just a PitA for me to take the car in, and get no benefit in return.
    Worse than that - it will inevitably mean reduced performance, and I wouldn't be surprised at worse fuel consumption too.

    You are smack on, it will of course result in worse performance as the only way to reduce the Nox Sox would be to reduce rail pressure which kills power.




    In any case, I guess they will be recalling almost all diesels worldwide for a re-chip/map, but that's just a PitA for me to take the car in, and get no benefit in return.
    why? it only effects the lower US NOX numbers not the higher EU ones.

    Are you certain that there's been no malpractice in Europe too? If they've done it in the US, then why not in Europe? Not necessarily just for Nox, but could be for other emissions, or consumption.

    There is a huge amount more in this, think about "type approval" where car makers submit engines results which in turn result in certain categories of emissions which gives them a tax bracket. Now think of the results of those cars being in the wrong bracket, in effect the government could charge for past years of a car being in the wrong bracket (they won't do this btw) but there is far more in this story than meets the eye.
    Implications will be rife, god help companies who mess with emissions is all I can say.
    Living MY dream.

  • In any case, I guess they will be recalling almost all diesels worldwide for a re-chip/map, but that's just a PitA for me to take the car in, and get no benefit in return.
    why? it only effects the lower US NOX numbers not the higher EU ones.

    Are you certain that there's been no malpractice in Europe too? If they've done it in the US, then why not in Europe? Not necessarily just for Nox, but could be for other emissions, or consumption.

    Not certain, but the level in the US is 31 and the Euro level about 81. They don't have to do much to meet the Euro target it appears.
    My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
    https://twitter.com/roubaixcc
    Facebook? No. Just say no.
  • Turns out I can answer my own question.........(iceberg).

    BMW and Mercedes were fitting (essentially) adblue engines (Urea adding injection thingy). Had that in my Sharan.

    VW weren't. But getting similar readings.
    My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
    https://twitter.com/roubaixcc
    Facebook? No. Just say no.
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,678
    I think the main question here is, do we think the guys (there must have been quite a few involved) are evil bstards, or respectable guys in well paid jobs (the kind of guys we would like to be neighbours and friends with (that maybe could get us a good deal on a flash car :wink: )).

    Most people would probably do what these guys have done.
    The ones wanting to sue them for having done it DEFINITELY would lol.
  • mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,765
    Whilst this revelation is still in its early stages and more manufacturers are likely to be outed. My concern as a company car driver is whether the IR will look at re-assessing the tax implications for me and thousands of others. I'm not saying they can do a retrospective claw back. But for future years drivers of company diesel cars might get clobbered.
    Time to get a Prius.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    You just beat me to that!
    but its not just company car drivers is it ?
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 79,678
    I doubt any drivers will be penalised for the incorrect emissions data, even going forward.
    Owners first worry may be when they come to sell the car/s.

    If people were miss sold, they should be able to get a full refund though. Unless it says otherwise in the small print perhaps.
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    Your safe. They won't and can't get money back as that would if possible come from the manufacturer.
    It will implicate future cars though and I see a decrease in allowances as the cars just don't meet targets.
    I have been a diesel fan in the past but they really are a danger to everyone.
    Living MY dream.
  • slowmartslowmart Posts: 4,137
    Your safe. They won't and can't get money back as that would if possible come from the manufacturer.
    It will implicate future cars though and I see a decrease in allowances as the cars just don't meet targets.
    I have been a diesel fan in the past but they really are a danger to everyone.[/quote


    The point the revenue will make is that it's not retrospective claw back and the tax has always been due on vehicles with certain levels of emissions.

    The revenue has more powers and less public scrutiny than the police and they have some heavy lifting to do to hit their income targets.

    In legal terms, the revenue make a tax demand, you pay and then challenge the validity of the claim. The question is more of political will to push this agenda.

    Personally I'd rule nothing out at this point and the reflex from VW was reactive rather than measured in announcing the figure for remedial action as no one yet knows the full implications. The majority of senior VW execs will go as they shift to repair the damage to their brand. Shares in other vehicle manufacturers have been mullered today and you can hear the collective sigh from the banking industry as scrutiny shifts away to another industry with odious and corrupt practices.

    It does make you wonder why again the yanks get a grip. FIFA and now VW. Makes you wonder how clean our governing bodies are
    “Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”

    Desmond Tutu
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 16,830
    It does make you wonder why again the yanks get a grip. FIFA and now VW. Makes you wonder how clean our governing bodies are
    The Yanks want the cash from the "fines".
    £18 billion I read. Not insignificant.
    Or, am I being too cynical?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • VTechVTech Posts: 4,736
    Our government don't act. I've been personally working on a case where a company is massively increasing emissions and when I went to publicise it I had an injunction slapped on me with a 2 year custodial sentence tied to it. Trust me, the system is corrupt.
    A couple of people on this forum know what I'm referring to and I would love to publicise it but I can't. These people are protected by the law I thought should protect the average person on the street.
    I went to the MP local to the company who can't get me an appointment for 19 months !!
    Living MY dream.
  • Our government don't act. I've been personally working on a case where a company is massively increasing emissions and when I went to publicise it I had an injunction slapped on me with a 2 year custodial sentence tied to it. Trust me, the system is corrupt.
    A couple of people on this forum know what I'm referring to and I would love to publicise it but I can't. These people are protected by the law I thought should protect the average person on the street.
    I went to the MP local to the company who can't get me an appointment for 19 months !!

    Exactly, the reasons the US tackles this is because no one is above the law in the States, when Enron went down the tubes the CEO was led away in handcuffs, did you see that happening to any Barclay's executives after LIBOR? The CEO of the food company responsible for a Salmonella outbreak in the States just got sentenced to 20 plus years in jail, again wouldn't happen here would it?
  • slowmartslowmart Posts: 4,137
    Our government don't act. I've been personally working on a case where a company is massively increasing emissions and when I went to publicise it I had an injunction slapped on me with a 2 year custodial sentence tied to it. Trust me, the system is corrupt.
    A couple of people on this forum know what I'm referring to and I would love to publicise it but I can't. These people are protected by the law I thought should protect the average person on the street.
    I went to the MP local to the company who can't get me an appointment for 19 months !!

    Exactly, the reasons the US tackles this is because no one is above the law in the States, when Enron went down the tubes the CEO was led away in handcuffs, did you see that happening to any Barclay's executives after LIBOR? The CEO of the food company responsible for a Salmonella outbreak in the States just got sentenced to 20 plus years in jail, again wouldn't happen here would it?

    The mechanics of the American system is also a massive driver as well as their mindset of being the worlds policeman. Prosecutors can launch their political careers by cracking down on high profile targets GIuliani case in point by taking on the New York mafia before seeking office of Mayor. The US Attorney General sent a memo earlier this month to their Federal Presecuters pushing for individual indictments from the banking scandals. It's people who commit the corporate crimes, not the company which was the gist of the comms and a reaction from public pressure. Any crime which touches their shores triggers the involvement and scrutiny of their law enforcement agencies. Even use of the dollar or American own servers is enough. No wonder certain members of FIFA have curtailed their jet setting. Instilling fear in criminals. I love that concept but feel we fall short on appititude and attitude and are more content to view events from the sidelines.

    It's not often I look across the Atlantic and wish for a similar appetite for jailing odious gits.
    “Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”

    Desmond Tutu
  • diydiy Posts: 6,680
    If the car is under 6 years old and the original purchaser is still the owner, then they can make a claim under consumer legislation "not as as described". The claim would be refund less benefit of use. Any finance company would be jointly liable.

    Its highly unlikely that someone would get two years for contempt of court / breaking an injunction.
    http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/contempt_of_court/

    I wouldn't advise it though - even nod, nod, wink wink disclosures could get you in trouble.
  • I've recently made a huge career change (hence me not being on here in a while). I now work in the motor trade, and in our groups dealerships people are now very suspect of the cars, and there have been very few sales over the past few days since these bits of information have come out.

    Unfortunately, not only does this affect sales of new vehicles, but also used vehicles too, as people are going to hold out purchasing a new vehicle unless they have no other choice, to see what happens with this.

    Let's just hope it gets better quick.
Sign In or Register to comment.