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  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,739
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    and a new leader...
    More that, it will effectively be a single issue GE.

    Labour still have to get over the small point that a leadership challenge will have Corbyn as a candidate and effectively the same electoral base for the leadership election as voted him in last year. It may not be the same Labour party that has a new leader if JC continues to dig his heels in.

    The horribly shady backroom way around that is that the PLP only nominates a single candidate so the vote essentially becomes Corbyn or Realism

    Part of the reason he got in was that his opposition vote was split 3 ways. Remove that and you at least lessen the problem
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,293
    mrfpb wrote:
    When does self belief and determination become arrogance. Even Mrs T. wasn't this pig headed over the leadership challenge to her - she never polled less than 50% of her MPs, but knew when the game was up.

    Quietest ever PMQS happening now. DC just told JC "for heaven's sake man, just go".

    She hadn't just got a direct mandate from the party members 9 months before though.

    Nothing has changed in the MPs opinion of him since he was elected leader, they just got organised. What they've learnt from the referendum about the electorate not liking "the establishment" making decisions and ignoring their wishes, I'm not quite sure.

    Keep him and Labour certainly loses the next election. Force him to stand for election and he probably gets back in and Labour loses the next election. Ditch him and don't let him stand and Labour loses the next election, the trust of its members, and goes a bit LibDem at the next election. No good options for them really.

    It's quite an achievement given what the tories are doing to themselves, that Labour has managed to be in a much worse state.
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    Look, I don't for one second think that a traditional socialist government is either realistic or desirable. However, isn't Corbyn actually trying to hold the labour party to it's traditions. Something that the general public / members of the Labour party think is missing from politics.
    Isn't the real issue here the move of the party in a rightward direction to the centre ground and also partly influenced by our FPTP electoral system. A very real number of Labour MPs are far more aligned to Liberal / SDP ideals but, rather than face the challenge of making the 3rd party electable in a system stacked against them, they've moved the Labour party to the right. Consequently, the Labour party doesn't really stand for anything in particular. Corbyn has a clear mandate from the party but not the MP's. If the memebers re-elect him, the Labour party is fundamentally disfunctional as the elected MP's are completely out of sync with the membership and vice versa. UKIP will ultimately be the winners. Go figure!

    Whether Corbyn is dutifully upholding his (and others) principles or failing to move with the times is a matter of personal opinion.
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    Whatever the members think, Corbyn cannot now cobble together a shadow cabinet that has confidence in him as a leader and if he was PM could not deliver a Queens Speech or budget that commanded collective Cabinet consent, let alone Parliamentary consent.

    He was not capable of quashing his own Eurosceptisism in order to reflect the will of the party during the referendum, I doubt he will be able to do the same on Trident, the Middle East peace process or a range of other issues where he gets support from the left of the party members but not from MPs or the general public.

    If he can't see that then it won't matter how he "reconnects" with anyone, the Party will be over.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    The biggest Unions are currently meeting so I believe.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    The biggest threat to the welfare of the less privileged is leaving the EU, brought upon us by the right wing.

    Remain had the support of the party, the unions and 70% of their voters.
  • ukiboy
    ukiboy Posts: 891
    Where is Neil and Glenys? I'm disappointed that since the EU Referendum victory we've not heard from the 'wisdom from the valleys'.
    He was waxing lyrical in the days before and now he's seemingly emigrated to Pluto..
    Outside the rat race and proud of it
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,962
    Almost certain that Eagle will launch a formal leadership challenge tomorrow. Unfortunately with the almost same membership base as last year, Corbyn will be re-elected and the party will have to split if t is going to avoid getting wiped out. In normal circumstances what is happening should give them an open goal, but this is what happens when you give the far left a look in.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 16,017
    mrfpb wrote:
    Whatever the members think, Corbyn cannot now cobble together a shadow cabinet that has confidence in him as a leader and if he was PM could not deliver a Queens Speech or budget that commanded collective Cabinet consent, let alone Parliamentary consent.

    He was not capable of quashing his own Eurosceptisism in order to reflect the will of the party during the referendum, I doubt he will be able to do the same on Trident, the Middle East peace process or a range of other issues where he gets support from the left of the party members but not from MPs or the general public.

    If he can't see that then it won't matter how he "reconnects" with anyone, the Party will be over.

    He has turned the Labour Party into a protest group.
    For that, I am truly grateful. :wink:
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,445
    /\ I don't think a political system with one credible party and a bunch of protest parties is a good result for anyone.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,962
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    /\ I don't think a political system with one credible party and a bunch of protest parties is a good result for anyone.
    Simple - Labour have to get rid of Corbyn.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,445
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    /\ I don't think a political system with one credible party and a bunch of protest parties is a good result for anyone.
    Simple - Labour have to get rid of Corbyn.

    I agree with that - but it's not like they have loads of great candidates waiting in the wings, to be fair.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    mrfpb wrote:
    When does self belief and determination become arrogance. Even Mrs T. wasn't this pig headed over the leadership challenge to her - she never polled less than 50% of her MPs, but knew when the game was up.

    Quietest ever PMQS happening now. DC just told JC "for heaven's sake man, just go".

    lol - he is using your own argument. He has a mandate from the masses and that overrules the wishes of a few hundred MPs.

    He has never looked like he wants the job. He is a patsy of the hard left who need him to stay in power until they have control of the Party. That is more important to them than winning an election.
  • Frank the tank
    Frank the tank Posts: 6,553
    morstar wrote:
    Look, I don't for one second think that a traditional socialist government is either realistic or desirable. However, isn't Corbyn actually trying to hold the labour party to it's traditions. Something that the general public / members of the Labour party think is missing from politics.
    Isn't the real issue here the move of the party in a rightward direction to the centre ground and also partly influenced by our FPTP electoral system. A very real number of Labour MPs are far more aligned to Liberal / SDP ideals but, rather than face the challenge of making the 3rd party electable in a system stacked against them, they've moved the Labour party to the right. Consequently, the Labour party doesn't really stand for anything in particular. Corbyn has a clear mandate from the party but not the MP's. If the memebers re-elect him, the Labour party is fundamentally disfunctional as the elected MP's are completely out of sync with the membership and vice versa. UKIP will ultimately be the winners. Go figure!

    Whether Corbyn is dutifully upholding his (and others) principles or failing to move with the times is a matter of personal opinion.
    I agree with these sentiments.
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    mrfpb wrote:
    When does self belief and determination become arrogance. Even Mrs T. wasn't this pig headed over the leadership challenge to her - she never polled less than 50% of her MPs, but knew when the game was up.

    Quietest ever PMQS happening now. DC just told JC "for heaven's sake man, just go".

    lol - he is using your own argument. He has a mandate from the masses and that overrules the wishes of a few hundred MPs.

    He has never looked like he wants the job. He is a patsy of the hard left who need him to stay in power until they have control of the Party. That is more important to them than winning an election.

    He has a mandate from the hardcore who signed on as members for £3 just to vote for him. Possibly not a representative of the Labour membership.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Steveo- I see this thread is just over a year old. Is your membership still valid? Could the plotters be banking on a change of membership since the last ballot?
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,962
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Steveo- I see this thread is just over a year old. Is your membership still valid? Could the plotters be banking on a change of membership since the last ballot?
    I'm still a member - it was a £3 one off fee and the best £3 I've spent in a long time :) I'll soon see what my choices are...
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Steveo- I see this thread is just over a year old. Is your membership still valid? Could the plotters be banking on a change of membership since the last ballot?
    I'm still a member - it was a £3 one off fee and the best £3 I've spent in a long time :) I'll soon see what my choices are...

    For £3 they gave you the option to decide the leader of the Labour Party for the rest of your life?

    What financial genius thought that was a good idea?
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 16,017
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Steveo- I see this thread is just over a year old. Is your membership still valid? Could the plotters be banking on a change of membership since the last ballot?
    I'm still a member - it was a £3 one off fee and the best £3 I've spent in a long time :) I'll soon see what my choices are...

    For £3 they gave you the option to decide the leader of the Labour Party for the rest of your life?

    What financial genius thought that was a good idea?

    A Lefty.
  • turpinr
    turpinr Posts: 255
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    /\ I don't think a political system with one credible party and a bunch of protest parties is a good result for anyone.
    Simple - Labour have to get rid of Corbyn.
    quickly as possible.angela eagle is getting my vote
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    turpinr wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    /\ I don't think a political system with one credible party and a bunch of protest parties is a good result for anyone.
    Simple - Labour have to get rid of Corbyn.
    quickly as possible.angela eagle is getting my vote

    Mine too.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 16,017
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Steveo- I see this thread is just over a year old. Is your membership still valid? Could the plotters be banking on a change of membership since the last ballot?
    I'm still a member - it was a £3 one off fee and the best £3 I've spent in a long time :) I'll soon see what my choices are...


    They want £3.97 a month now. I may wait til he resigns and join for the month.
    If he goes, I may start a campaign to get Diane Abbott on the ballot.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,962
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Steveo- I see this thread is just over a year old. Is your membership still valid? Could the plotters be banking on a change of membership since the last ballot?
    I'm still a member - it was a £3 one off fee and the best £3 I've spent in a long time :) I'll soon see what my choices are...

    For £3 they gave you the option to decide the leader of the Labour Party for the rest of your life?

    What financial genius thought that was a good idea?
    Come on, this is the Labour party you're talking about. You expect them to have a clue about their own finances given what they did to the country's during the last two stretches they were in power? :lol:
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,962
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Steveo- I see this thread is just over a year old. Is your membership still valid? Could the plotters be banking on a change of membership since the last ballot?
    I'm still a member - it was a £3 one off fee and the best £3 I've spent in a long time :) I'll soon see what my choices are...


    They want £3.97 a month now. I may wait til he resigns and join for the month.
    If he goes, I may start a campaign to get Diane Abbott on the ballot.
    Get in now Bally, before they read this and put the price up even more!
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 16,017
    Will sign my mother up instead - only £1.92 :lol:
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Steveo- I see this thread is just over a year old. Is your membership still valid? Could the plotters be banking on a change of membership since the last ballot?
    I'm still a member - it was a £3 one off fee and the best £3 I've spent in a long time :) I'll soon see what my choices are...

    For £3 they gave you the option to decide the leader of the Labour Party for the rest of your life?

    What financial genius thought that was a good idea?
    Come on, this is the Labour party you're talking about. You expect them to have a clue about their own finances given what they did to the country's during the last two stretches they were in power? :lol:

    They lose contact with the crusties as they move from bedsit to bedsit... in 2 years time you and the other "fake" members will be in the majority
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    So the Tories give us the great unwashed a vote which no one aside from 'kippers and the right wing wanted.
    somehow we vote out, the economy nose dives, DC resigns, Gove stabs Boris, labour and Tories in melt down, BoE rise spectre of lower interest rates, sterling in free fall, lose coveted AAA ratings, growth forecasts in negative territory, no one has a plan apart from the guy down the Pub AND you lot were worried what Corbyn and Labour could do..... FFS
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,962
    mamba80 wrote:
    So the Tories give us the great unwashed a vote which no one aside from 'kippers and the right wing wanted.
    somehow we vote out, the economy nose dives, DC resigns, Gove stabs Boris, labour and Tories in melt down, BoE rise spectre of lower interest rates, sterling in free fall, lose coveted AAA ratings, growth forecasts in negative territory, no one has a plan apart from the guy down the Pub AND you lot were worried what Corbyn and Labour could do..... FFS
    Labour should have an open goal here, which they have totally failed capitalise on. Why? Because they are so utterly useless.

    PS: what's this 'spectre' of lower interest rates?
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 16,017
    mamba80 wrote:
    So the Tories give us the great unwashed a vote which no one aside from 'kippers and the right wing wanted.
    somehow we vote out, the economy nose dives, DC resigns, Gove stabs Boris, labour and Tories in melt down, BoE rise spectre of lower interest rates, sterling in free fall, lose coveted AAA ratings, growth forecasts in negative territory, no one has a plan apart from the guy down the Pub AND you lot were worried what Corbyn and Labour could do..... FFS

    17 million plus seemed to relish the opportunity.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    So the Tories give us the great unwashed a vote which no one aside from 'kippers and the right wing wanted.
    somehow we vote out, the economy nose dives, DC resigns, Gove stabs Boris, labour and Tories in melt down, BoE rise spectre of lower interest rates, sterling in free fall, lose coveted AAA ratings, growth forecasts in negative territory, no one has a plan apart from the guy down the Pub AND you lot were worried what Corbyn and Labour could do..... FFS
    Labour should have an open goal here, which they have totally failed capitalise on. Why? Because they are so utterly useless.

    PS: what's this 'spectre' of lower interest rates?

    totally agree, though whether even an effective opposition should be helping to destroy what is left of this Government, is another issue though.
    Heseltines demolition of Boris and what he has gone and done was fascinating, maybe he should stand against Corbyn? or even Gove/May :shock:

    but do you think the country is better off now than it was 6 months or 6 weeks ago? would you be so sanguine if Labour had presided over this completely self made disaster?

    i do not hold to the sacred principles of democracy as you do Bally, we should never have been given this vote, the Government has a duty to protect the nation - the National socialists got voted into power in the 1930's, was that a victory for Democracy?

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