Join the Labour Party and save your country!

letap73

Stevo 666 wrote:

letap73 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Fuhgettaboutit.

I prefer it if he stays to screw up Labours electability - the original point of the thread really.

So you want no credible opposition to a Tory party who are a pale shadow of the ilk of Churchill and Thatcher?
Good opposition brings the best out of parliament, for example in the 40s and 50s - you had the likes of Atlee and Bevan on one side and Churchill on the other.
In this time of uncertainty do you really want the likes of Johnson and Gove to have a free run?

I don't mind a decent opposition, just don't want them in power...

You come across as pretty intelligent - not someone who would be wedded to partisan politics - so (as it seems likely) you are going to have a very poor Tory government (in comparison to a Thatcher government) running the show with possibly Boris (lets not be hasty now) Johnson who exchanged his ideals for an opportunity at being in power and Gove - who by most accounts performed poorly as education secretary. The chances are they won't deliver - I dislike Norman Tebbit, however, seeing him on TV this morning was a reminder of a Tory politician with gravitas and some balls.

rick_chasey

D'ya regret voting Corbyn in, given how ineffectual he was on helping the UK remain the EU?

pblakeney

Stevo 666 wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Would you really want Corbyn in power without EU rules to stop him selectively subsidising favoured industries or trying to rig certain markets with Venzuela style price controls, for example?

The only person looking like they have the slightest credability at the moment is Sturgeon.

I don't think so.

So no one has credibility?
Name one. Just one.

I was just saying Sturgeon wasn't credible. Not a hard call to make.

So you admit the pool is low. Labour might even win then.

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Ruth Davidson

A fair enough suggestion. I think she would be about as popular in London as Gordon Brown was though.

mrfpb

Rick Chasey wrote:

D'ya regret voting Corbyn in, given how ineffectual he was on helping the UK remain the EU?

Lot's of hand wringing took place over the tone of the campaign following the death of Jo Cox, but the only senior politician offering a balanced and reasonable "stay and reform" argument gets threatened with the sack when that approach fails to get the media coverage given to the "lies, threats and bullying" campaigners.

The media love a controversial character and an outrageous statement. Hence Boris and Trump thrive on publicity and people in authority like Cameron and Osborne come up with ever more daft/scary rhetoric to get a look in on the news.

surrey_commuter

PBlakeney wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Would you really want Corbyn in power without EU rules to stop him selectively subsidising favoured industries or trying to rig certain markets with Venzuela style price controls, for example?

The only person looking like they have the slightest credability at the moment is Sturgeon.

I don't think so.

So no one has credibility?
Name one. Just one.

I was just saying Sturgeon wasn't credible. Not a hard call to make.

So you admit the pool is low. Labour might even win then.

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Ruth Davidson

A fair enough suggestion. I think she would be about as popular in London as Gordon Brown was though.

There is something credible and likeable about her.

What about Sadiq Khan?

But in general agree with the above that when some of the dinosaurs got wheeled out you realised how shallow our current crop of media trained professional politicians are.

Exactly what qualification did Will Straw have to run the Remain campaign. How did the husband of the DAnish prime Minister get one of the safest Labour seats? Nepotism is a powerful tool.

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

D'ya regret voting Corbyn in, given how ineffectual he was on helping the UK remain the EU?

Nope. Do you think one of the alternatives would have swung it?

I'm not of the view that this is an unmitigated disaster that you think it is - I was In 'on balance'. More important is that we deal with the reality positively and make the most of the opportunities.

pblakeney

Surrey Commuter wrote:

There is something credible and likeable about her.

Unfortunately for her, she has had to distance herself from Westminster to gain votes in Scotland.
A good strategy for a Scottish leader, not so good for a potential Westminster leader.

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

D'ya regret voting Corbyn in, given how ineffectual he was on helping the UK remain the EU?

Nope. Do you think one of the alternatives would have swung it?

I'm not of the view that this is an unmitigated disaster that you think it is - I was In 'on balance'. More important is that we deal with the reality positively and make the most of the opportunities.

The latter I agree with (though I am still entitled to feel both totally f@cked off and rather unwelcome by large swathes of the UK).

We're seeing the fractured sides of leave come out now and admit that the "other leave" campaign was being duplicitous. Farage said that about the £350m to the NHS, the Tories have said they're backing free movement of labour as part of the EU negotiations. This does not fill me with confidence, nor has their constant rejection of experts.

I think Corbyn is an embodiment of the failure of the left to consider the genuine grievances of the actual working class man, and that was reflected in the ultimate rejection of the "labour in" and broader in campaign. I've heard a lot of people angry at the "Islington elite" who think voting Boris and Gove is a way to get back at them.

That there is no irony or hypocrisy seen in that illustrates how badly labour have failed.

What has happened as a result is the even more duplicitous far right, with their Nazi posters and populist nativist policies have picked up their votes instead for their own more nefarious bigoted means. That in turn legitimises some of the darker more worrying politics that only lead a country down the path towards rack & ruin. It's not for nothing you see the BNP, the EDL, and Britain first saying "we won".

Labour's failure therefore has fuelled the growth of the far right. I hold Corbyn in some way responsible for that, though the issues go back further then that. And I slightly hold that against you and people like you, who never really saw the value in healthy competition in politics.

Stevo_666

Don't blame me, blame the EU.

If they hadn't pushed the integration and central rule agenda so much this would never have happened. In the longer term if BREXIT causes a reshaping of the EU back into what it originally was and IMO always should have been - a free trade bloc - then that will be a good thing, even if getting there will be painful.

And blame Labour and the Lib Dems for the lack of healthy competition in politics, It's hardly my fault that they are useless.

morstar

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

D'ya regret voting Corbyn in, given how ineffectual he was on helping the UK remain the EU?

Nope. Do you think one of the alternatives would have swung it?

I'm not of the view that this is an unmitigated disaster that you think it is - I was In 'on balance'. More important is that we deal with the reality positively and make the most of the opportunities.

The latter I agree with (though I am still entitled to feel both totally f@cked off and rather unwelcome by large swathes of the UK).

We're seeing the fractured sides of leave come out now and admit that the "other leave" campaign was being duplicitous. Farage said that about the £350m to the NHS, the Tories have said they're backing free movement of labour as part of the EU negotiations. This does not fill me with confidence, nor has their constant rejection of experts.

I think Corbyn is an embodiment of the failure of the left to consider the genuine grievances of the actual working class man, and that was reflected in the ultimate rejection of the "labour in" and broader in campaign. I've heard a lot of people angry at the "Islington elite" who think voting Boris and Gove is a way to get back at them.

That there is no irony or hypocrisy seen in that illustrates how badly labour have failed.

What has happened as a result is the even more duplicitous far right, with their Nazi posters and populist nativist policies have picked up their votes instead for their own more nefarious bigoted means. That in turn legitimises some of the darker more worrying politics that only lead a country down the path towards rack & ruin. It's not for nothing you see the BNP, the EDL, and Britain first saying "we won".

Labour's failure therefore has fuelled the growth of the far right. I hold Corbyn in some way responsible for that, though the issues go back further then that. And I slightly hold that against you and people like you, who never really saw the value in healthy competition in politics.

Rick, I largely agree with what you have said. The only thing that hasn't really been discussed is the measurable impact of the press. Liverpool voted remain unlike most other major cities. Why is that significant? Because they don't buy the Sun in Liverpool.

rick_chasey

Presumably because there will be a whole bunch of people who live in downtown liverpool probably do alright, so they don't feel the need for a nihilistic vote. Or maybe Liverpool's strong irish links persuaded them to vote remain.

mrfpb

Stevo 666 wrote:

Don't blame me, blame the EU.

If they hadn't pushed the integration and central rule agenda so much this would never have happened. In the longer term if BREXIT causes a reshaping of the EU back into what it originally was and IMO always should have been - a free trade bloc - then that will be a good thing, even if getting there will be painful.

And blame Labour and the Lib Dems for the lack of healthy competition in politics, It's hardly my fault that they are useless.

Have to agree with everything stevo says - though on balance I voted out. I would credit Jean Claude Junker with pushing me over the edge. His contempt for the Eastern Europeans who don't want a federal Europe convinced me that at heart the EU won't be changed by anything other than a state leaving. Junker is a shining example of what happens when you give a president power without the need to face a democratic vote or even the possibility of a vote of no confidence. He reminds me of Sepp Blatter in his sense of autocratic entitlement.

I decided I would accept UK democracy with all it's flaws over the EU model.

mrfpb

ROLL UP! ROLL UP! PLACE YOUR BETS!*

Here we go again.

2:1 Hillary Benn

5:1 Alan Johnson

20:1 Diane Abbot

50:1 Jeremy Corbyn

10:1 David Milliband to stand in Jo Cox's seat and take leadership

*All odds are for illustrative purposes only. Please do not to make any actual bets with me, I am not a licensed bookie.

Stevo_666

mrfpb wrote:

ROLL UP! ROLL UP! PLACE YOUR BETS!*

Here we go again.

2:1 Hillary Benn

5:1 Alan Johnson

20:1 Diane Abbot

50:1 Jeremy Corbyn

10:1 David Milliband to stand in Jo Cox's seat and take leadership

*All odds are for illustrative purposes only. Please do not to make any actual bets with me, I am not a licensed bookie.

This could be fun, looks like I get to vote again

Stevo_666

Although you needed to change the list. Just watched Hilary Benn on the Beeb 24 channel saying that he had lost confidence in Corbyn's leadership (shock, horror) but would not be standing as a candidate himself.

Also there is the small point that half the shadow cabinet have resigned, or are about to resign.

Should be interesting nonetheless as this one has momentum (excuse the pun )

mrfpb

There may be a campaign to persuade Benn to stand, so I'll leave it up as an example. I think that if Labour want to have a hope they need to find someone positive and clear about what the party want from Brexit negotiations - if we don't get going quickly, we will still be negotiating Brexit at the next GE.

They also need a candidate that understands/appeals to the grassroots, as if Corbyn refuses to step aside they will be going to Party members and affiliates that voted him in a year ago.

surrey_commuter

mrfpb wrote:

There may be a campaign to persuade Benn to stand, so I'll leave it up as an example. I think that if Labour want to have a hope they need to find someone positive and clear about what the party want from Brexit negotiations - if we don't get going quickly, we will still be negotiating Brexit at the next GE.

They also need a candidate that understands/appeals to the grassroots, as if Corbyn refuses to step aside they will be going to Party members and affiliates that voted him in a year ago.

A cursory Google suggests that the Labour Party rules on challenging an existing leader read like a lawyers wet dream. As they need to keep Corbyn off the ballot it could end up in the high court.

This of course assumes that he still wants the job

bompington

morstar wrote:

Rick, I largely agree with what you have said. The only thing that hasn't really been discussed is the measurable impact of the press. Liverpool voted remain unlike most other major cities. Why is that significant? Because they don't buy the Sun in Liverpool.

Case proven! There can be no other explanation!

First.Aspect

Stevo 666 wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Would you really want Corbyn in power without EU rules to stop him selectively subsidising favoured industries or trying to rig certain markets with Venzuela style price controls, for example?

The only person looking like they have the slightest credability at the moment is Sturgeon.

I don't think so.

So no one has credibility?
Name one. Just one.

I was just saying Sturgeon wasn't credible. Not a hard call to make.

Look, I'm a "no" and "remain" voter in Scotland, and I generally regard the SNP as a bunch of zealots.

But. She had a 20 min interview on BBC1 Scotland today which you won't have seen and I can assure you that she's credible. You might not agree with her, but she's credible.

Not only did she say, "I don't know" several times, which is more honest than anyone claiming otherwise at the moment, but she (says she is going to) put Scotland's needs ahead of Indyref2 and her responsibility as a national leader ahead of her party leader responsibilities.

She even ackowledged that this might not be popular.

Why don't you watch it on iPlayer.

Lookyhere

Stevo 666 wrote:

Don't blame me, blame the EU.

If they hadn't pushed the integration and central rule agenda so much this would never have happened. In the longer term if BREXIT causes a reshaping of the EU back into what it originally was and IMO always should have been - a free trade bloc - then that will be a good thing, even if getting there will be painful.

And blame Labour and the Lib Dems for the lack of healthy competition in politics, It's hardly my fault that they are useless.

......and what good will that do us? we wont be in it anymore, with zero chance of rejoining.

Yep Corbyn should step down, though the majority of Labour did support their leader, unlike those treacherous tories, who deserted their leader in droves.

Stevo_666

First Aspect wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Would you really want Corbyn in power without EU rules to stop him selectively subsidising favoured industries or trying to rig certain markets with Venzuela style price controls, for example?

The only person looking like they have the slightest credability at the moment is Sturgeon.

I don't think so.

So no one has credibility?
Name one. Just one.

I was just saying Sturgeon wasn't credible. Not a hard call to make.

Look, I'm a "no" and "remain" voter in Scotland, and I generally regard the SNP as a bunch of zealots.

But. She had a 20 min interview on BBC1 Scotland today which you won't have seen and I can assure you that she's credible. You might not agree with her, but she's credible.

Not only did she say, "I don't know" several times, which is more honest than anyone claiming otherwise at the moment, but she (says she is going to) put Scotland's needs ahead of Indyref2 and her responsibility as a national leader ahead of her party leader responsibilities.

She even ackowledged that this might not be popular.

Why don't you watch it on iPlayer.

We were talking about credibility in terms of governing this country. Surgeon has zero credibility in that respect because she only gives a s**t about Scotland.

Apart from that, she was quite happy to back the first Scottish referendum even though at the time it would have taken Scotland out of the EU. She now says Scotland needs a second referendum because its essential that Scotland stays in the EU :roll: She is an opportunist but not much more.

Stevo_666

Lookyhere wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Don't blame me, blame the EU.

If they hadn't pushed the integration and central rule agenda so much this would never have happened. In the longer term if BREXIT causes a reshaping of the EU back into what it originally was and IMO always should have been - a free trade bloc - then that will be a good thing, even if getting there will be painful.

And blame Labour and the Lib Dems for the lack of healthy competition in politics, It's hardly my fault that they are useless.

......and what good will that do us? we wont be in it anymore, with zero chance of rejoining.

Yep Corbyn should step down, though the majority of Labour did support their leader, unlike those treacherous tories, who deserted their leader in droves.

Not a lot but Rick was somehow blamimg me for the current political turmoil

Oh yeah, those loyal Labour shadow cabinet members who have just resigned en masse to trigger a leadership contest

Garry H

Phew! We've nothing to worry about, Jezza will stand again!

Stevo_666

Garry H wrote:

Phew! We've nothing to worry about, Jezza will stand again!

I'll vote for him again

tangled_metal

Someone pages back said that the non sun reading Liverpool voted in. Can I just point out that like Manchester, Liverpool voted remain because the centre of those cities actually have a more metropolitan, well paid set of residents who tend to be more pro Europe. It's a pattern that was seen elsewhere in similar with similar demographics.

Of course it's a good southerner's view to see Liverpool as a socialist haven full of working classes to the left of Corbyn. There's areas like that but in the part of Liverpool and Manchester who voted remain, they're no different from the remain voting areas of London, that is they have money, education and good jobs that possibly deal with Europe. Boris was sent to apologise to Liverpool for dodgy comments in the past. Sun is read in Liverpool just not in all areas. I'm sure there's other stereotypes about Liverpool that's only true to southerners who've never been there.

PS I'm one generation away from Liverpool born and bred so my chip is still on my shoulder about Liverpool.

pblakeney

Wasn't their point that Liverpool voted Remain?
Excellent rant none the less.

Stevo_666

Keep an eye on the news, could be a JEXIT today.

bobmcstuff

Corbyn told to leave by deputy labour leader - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36638041 10 minutes ago

joelsim

Corbyn has to go.

Plenty of voters ripe for picking up, never been a better chance for the Labour Party to hugely increase their base. Corbyn is too left wing to achieve that.

joelsim

Eagle has flown the nest too.