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pblakeney

HaydenM wrote:

To some extent ideology is useless if you never get into power though. I would prefer to vote for a labour party with a chance of getting a majority government than one with no chance of getting in, no matter how admirable the man's principles are. I'm not completely convinced that JC would have been that un- electable if his party had supported him but it's his job to control them, if he can't do it then he was the wrong man for the job

And you end up with Tony Bliar.
Corbyn may well be useless but at least I have a hint of what I am voting against.

DeVlaeminck

mrfpb wrote:

Corbyn has a 40 year habit of rebelling against his party and sticking to his own ideological lines no matter what. The Blairites and Brownites have pursued a path of compromise and bridge builidng in order to get into and maintain power (eg John Smith and Tony Blair both employed John Prescott to build bridges to the unions to get changes such as One Memeber One Vote and Clause 4 through conference). So I think past evidence points to Corbyn as the problem, not the PLP. The sacking of Hilary Benn is a sign of this - minister discusses lack of confidence with leader, leader sacks minister rather than dealing with issues. Tom Watson is elected by the party like Corbyn so Corbyn can't sack him, otherwise he would be long gone by now. However Corbyn is doing his best to ignore him.

Corbyn is either not capable of or not willing to build a united Labour movement to get through the opposition years and present a coherent manifesto to the public.

So he'll continue to get Stevo's vote.

But Hilary Benn held a top post in the shadow cabinet which included others not naturally allied to Corbyn so there is some evidence of compromise there. Tony Blair may given Prescott a post bit it's not known whether he would have kept it had he told Blair he had lost confidence in him as leader.

I'm not a supporter of Corbyn but what the PLP are doing is not helping the party - they may not want Corbyn as leader but they should be winning the arguments with the membership not trying to depose him over the head of the membership.

haydenm

PBlakeney wrote:

HaydenM wrote:

To some extent ideology is useless if you never get into power though. I would prefer to vote for a labour party with a chance of getting a majority government than one with no chance of getting in, no matter how admirable the man's principles are. I'm not completely convinced that JC would have been that un- electable if his party had supported him but it's his job to control them, if he can't do it then he was the wrong man for the job

And you end up with Tony Bliar.
Corbyn may well be useless but at least I have a hint of what I am voting against.

Fair point, but there is a trade off somewhere. I dare say I would vote for Blair over the current Tory bunch...

Stevo_666

Looks like the PLP has run out of patience with Captain Leftiebollox and his union paymasters:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/labour-turmoil-angela-eagle-jeremy-corbyn
Unfortunately given the membership base consists mostly of hard left momentum types and union members, not sure how this will do anything other than prolong the stalemate.

morstar

Stevo 666 wrote:

Looks like the PLP has run out of patience with Captain Leftiebollox and his union paymasters:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/labour-turmoil-angela-eagle-jeremy-corbyn
Unfortunately given the membership base consists mostly of hard left momentum types and union members, not sure how this will do anything other than prolong the stalemate.

The gist of the opening of the article is that the party is close to splitting. Surely it needs to! Labour has a grass roots that wants a socialist party and British politics needs a coherent centre party. The only reason it hasn't split is fear of lack of representation in a FPTP system.
Surely what the current political climate shows us is that people don't feel well served by the parliamentary system. It's exactly this same fear of fracturing from the Conservatives that gave us the referendum vote.
If we want conviction politicians, they need to be empowered to stand for their convictions and not simply squeeze into a party mould.

surrey_commuter

morstar wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Looks like the PLP has run out of patience with Captain Leftiebollox and his union paymasters:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/labour-turmoil-angela-eagle-jeremy-corbyn
Unfortunately given the membership base consists mostly of hard left momentum types and union members, not sure how this will do anything other than prolong the stalemate.

The gist of the opening of the article is that the party is close to splitting. Surely it needs to! Labour has a grass roots that wants a socialist party and British politics needs a coherent centre party. The only reason it hasn't split is fear of lack of representation in a FPTP system.
Surely what the current political climate shows us is that people don't feel well served by the parliamentary system. It's exactly this same fear of fracturing from the Conservatives that gave us the referendum vote.
If we want conviction politicians, they need to be empowered to stand for their convictions and not simply squeeze into a party mould.

Catch 22 - nobody in power is going to vote to change the system

morstar

Agreed!

Stevo_666

morstar wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Looks like the PLP has run out of patience with Captain Leftiebollox and his union paymasters:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/labour-turmoil-angela-eagle-jeremy-corbyn
Unfortunately given the membership base consists mostly of hard left momentum types and union members, not sure how this will do anything other than prolong the stalemate.

The gist of the opening of the article is that the party is close to splitting. Surely it needs to! Labour has a grass roots that wants a socialist party and British politics needs a coherent centre party. The only reason it hasn't split is fear of lack of representation in a FPTP system.
Surely what the current political climate shows us is that people don't feel well served by the parliamentary system. It's exactly this same fear of fracturing from the Conservatives that gave us the referendum vote.
If we want conviction politicians, they need to be empowered to stand for their convictions and not simply squeeze into a party mould.

Don't disagree with a lot of that. I've said before on here that a Labour split looks likely.

As for conviction politicians, fair enough, although it could be argued that the best examples of these in UK politics were/are Thatcher and Corbyn.

Stevo_666

Ding ding round one...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36756975

Good to see Len McCluskey showing everyone who's the boss...

Stevo_666

Stevo_666

cycleclinic

While labour tears itself apart the toriesmove to the centre gorumd and dominate it. That is good for no one. The country os not as left wing or as pacifist are corbyn or many party members. Corbyn does not see this. I really dont see why the plp are trying to fight for the labour brand. It is tainted more than the tory brand is in scotland. They need to have the balls to split. They could draw in many oib dem suporters greens e.t,c and try to build a more centre left party.

Even leadsom knowns when to quit and she seemed to be a true believer in the cause. Corbyn could learn alot by looking at the benches opposite.

. Unless the party splits they are going to get hammered come a general election and may says she wont hold one but she may have to get a mandate for the norvegian option we will end up with. The labour brand is broken i am not sure many really trust it anymore. Remember in 1997 the landslide that lanour got that what the tories will next time and that scares me.

Stevo_666

thecycleclinic wrote:

Remember in 1997 the landslide that lanour got that what the tories will next time and that scares me.

Would the thought of Corbyns Labour party getting a landslide not scare you more?

awavey

thecycleclinic wrote:

While labour tears itself apart the toriesmove to the centre gorumd and dominate it. That is good for no one. The country os not as left wing or as pacifist are corbyn or many party members. Corbyn does not see this. I really dont see why the plp are trying to fight for the labour brand. It is tainted more than the tory brand is in scotland. They need to have the balls to split. They could draw in many oib dem suporters greens e.t,c and try to build a more centre left party.

Even leadsom knowns when to quit and she seemed to be a true believer in the cause. Corbyn could learn alot by looking at the benches opposite.

. Unless the party splits they are going to get hammered come a general election and may says she wont hold one but she may have to get a mandate for the norvegian option we will end up with. The labour brand is broken i am not sure many really trust it anymore. Remember in 1997 the landslide that lanour got that what the tories will next time and that scares me.

because theyll need the machinery of the plp to go with them if they split,if you start a new party you are starting completely from scratch, no setup, no rules about anything let alone party leadership selections, no back office running the thing and no party members, and elections are all about party members on the ground delivering leaflets knocking on doors not westminster bubble MPs coming up with stupid launch events that they forget to invite half the media to. :roll:

cycleclinic

Well they if they split they might find supporters in the public and a new machinary. Maybe many labour members will switch too. Not all are corbynites.

It requires balls and it could flop but right now labour is heading for oblivion anyway so there is nothing to loose.

DeVlaeminck

thecycleclinic wrote:

Well they if they split they might find supporters in the public and a new machinary. Maybe many labour members will switch too. Not all are corbynites.

It requires balls and it could flop but right now labour is heading for oblivion anyway so there is nothing to loose.

They are desperate to remain the "official" Labour Party. Without the machinery and the name they have very little.

How many would get elected standing as say Democratic Centrists or whatever up against even a leftist Labour under Corbyn? They would be wiped out, they'd pretty much all lose their jobs. You say they have nothing to lose but I would bet their electoral prospects would be better under a Corbyn led Labour than an offshoot. If Corbyn is on the ballot watch a lot of the PLP suddenly back away from the Eagle/Benn clique - maybe the majority would prefer Eagle as leader but they aren't going to commit political suicide for her.

TheBigBean

DeVlaeminck wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

Well they if they split they might find supporters in the public and a new machinary. Maybe many labour members will switch too. Not all are corbynites.

It requires balls and it could flop but right now labour is heading for oblivion anyway so there is nothing to loose.

They are desperate to remain the "official" Labour Party. Without the machinery and the name they have very little.

How many would get elected standing as say Democratic Centrists or whatever up against even a leftist Labour under Corbyn? They would be wiped out, they'd pretty much all lose their jobs. You say they have nothing to lose but I would bet their electoral prospects would be better under a Corbyn led Labour than an offshoot. If Corbyn is on the ballot watch a lot of the PLP suddenly back away from the Eagle/Benn clique - maybe the majority would prefer Eagle as leader but they aren't going to commit political suicide for her.

Do you think if Corbyn survives he will invite local party members to review their selections for the next election? He has hitherto declined to do this, but if he does the New Labour clique will find life even more uncomfortable.

surrey_commuter

TheBigBean wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

Well they if they split they might find supporters in the public and a new machinary. Maybe many labour members will switch too. Not all are corbynites.

It requires balls and it could flop but right now labour is heading for oblivion anyway so there is nothing to loose.

They are desperate to remain the "official" Labour Party. Without the machinery and the name they have very little.

How many would get elected standing as say Democratic Centrists or whatever up against even a leftist Labour under Corbyn? They would be wiped out, they'd pretty much all lose their jobs. You say they have nothing to lose but I would bet their electoral prospects would be better under a Corbyn led Labour than an offshoot. If Corbyn is on the ballot watch a lot of the PLP suddenly back away from the Eagle/Benn clique - maybe the majority would prefer Eagle as leader but they aren't going to commit political suicide for her.

Do you think if Corbyn survives he will invite local party members to review their selections for the next election? He has hitherto declined to do this, but if he does the New Labour clique will find life even more uncomfortable.

Corbyn is a puppet. Momentum need to seize control of the constituency parties. The boundary changes in two years give them the time and the opportunity. Don't forget these people see it as a long-term project, they do not care about the next election.

Stevo_666

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Corbyn is a puppet. Momentum need to seize control of the constituency parties. The boundary changes in two years give them the time and the opportunity. Don't forget these people see it as a long-term project, they do not care about the next election.

Let them. It will either force a split that will produce a more moderate 'New New Labour' or maintain the current unelectable situation for the existing party.

surrey_commuter

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Corbyn is a puppet. Momentum need to seize control of the constituency parties. The boundary changes in two years give them the time and the opportunity. Don't forget these people see it as a long-term project, they do not care about the next election.

Let them. It will either force a split that will produce a more moderate 'New New Labour' or maintain the current unelectable situation for the existing party.

A crucial few hours for Comrade Corbyn.

Splitting off is pointless with FPTP - could try a reverse takeover of the LibDems

bendertherobot

Corbyn on the ballot. That was inevitable given "contrary legal opinion."

surrey_commuter

bendertherobot wrote:

Corbyn on the ballot. That was inevitable given "contrary legal opinion."

Can we park that until Conference?

Stevo_666

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Corbyn is a puppet. Momentum need to seize control of the constituency parties. The boundary changes in two years give them the time and the opportunity. Don't forget these people see it as a long-term project, they do not care about the next election.

Let them. It will either force a split that will produce a more moderate 'New New Labour' or maintain the current unelectable situation for the existing party.

A crucial few hours for Comrade Corbyn.

Splitting off is pointless with FPTP - could try a reverse takeover of the LibDems

Could work. Not sure what the downside would be for the Lib Dems.

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Corbyn is a puppet. Momentum need to seize control of the constituency parties. The boundary changes in two years give them the time and the opportunity. Don't forget these people see it as a long-term project, they do not care about the next election.

Let them. It will either force a split that will produce a more moderate 'New New Labour' or maintain the current unelectable situation for the existing party.

A crucial few hours for Comrade Corbyn.

Splitting off is pointless with FPTP - could try a reverse takeover of the LibDems

Could work. Not sure what the downside would be for the Lib Dems.

Ideological differneces.

Are a bunch of Labour MPs I wouldn't want in my party.

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Corbyn is a puppet. Momentum need to seize control of the constituency parties. The boundary changes in two years give them the time and the opportunity. Don't forget these people see it as a long-term project, they do not care about the next election.

Let them. It will either force a split that will produce a more moderate 'New New Labour' or maintain the current unelectable situation for the existing party.

A crucial few hours for Comrade Corbyn.

Splitting off is pointless with FPTP - could try a reverse takeover of the LibDems

Could work. Not sure what the downside would be for the Lib Dems.

Ideological differneces.

Are a bunch of Labour MPs I wouldn't want in my party.

Surely the prospect of more seats and maybe holding the balance of power would be too much to resist in the situation the Lib Dems find themselves in?

Stevo_666

bendertherobot wrote:

Corbyn on the ballot. That was inevitable given "contrary legal opinion."

Looks like Ill be voting again soon.

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Corbyn is a puppet. Momentum need to seize control of the constituency parties. The boundary changes in two years give them the time and the opportunity. Don't forget these people see it as a long-term project, they do not care about the next election.

Let them. It will either force a split that will produce a more moderate 'New New Labour' or maintain the current unelectable situation for the existing party.

A crucial few hours for Comrade Corbyn.

Splitting off is pointless with FPTP - could try a reverse takeover of the LibDems

Could work. Not sure what the downside would be for the Lib Dems.

Ideological differneces.

Are a bunch of Labour MPs I wouldn't want in my party.

Surely the prospect of more seats and maybe holding the balance of power would be too much to resist in the situation the Lib Dems find themselves in?

It's the perpetual dilemma of party politics.

There are some irreconcilable differences between most labour MPs and Lib Dems already; otherwise they'd already have been in a party together.

pblakeney

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surely the prospect of power would be too much to resist in the situation the M.P.s find themselves in?

FTFY

Stevo_666

Now that Corbyn is on the ballot paper he is highly likely to win. If so, a split is on the cards unless the PLP is prepared to resign themselves to electoral oblivion at the next GE.

A merger like the one suggested above may soon be a very real choice.

Giraffoto

I'm frankly amazed at the voting restriction that's been added - if I'd just heard that "a political party" was only letting people vote on the leader if they stumped up £25, Labour wouldn't have been my first guess.