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From 2010 to 2019, UK debt hovered between 84-85% of GDP i.e. despite all the fanfare about austerity, it didn't really improve the nations finances one bit.
New Labour did make a pretty sizable dent in UK debt, reducing from 44% to 34% before turning the spending taps on, and even then it was only 41.5% prior to GFC.
When Starmer takes over, he's going to inherit the economy in a much worse state than either Blair or Cameron did. Probably in the middle of a recession, higher inflation, over 100% of GDP to debt.
I don't think he'll need a lefty magic wand though, there are three reasons that things should get better even without major changes in tax and spending:
1. Some of those problems are cyclical and reaching the end of the cycle.
2. Closer alignment with Europe in a number of key areas will help, plus a general sense of "we're no longer going to be creating fights with you to satisfy our press"
3. Markets lost faith with the Tories through Brexit, the Johnson "F*** business" era and Truss, and a new set of hands will give a feel good factor
I'm a bit disappointed at some of the noises they are making e.g. keeping triple lock, no higher rates of tax; largely because they will tie their hands unnecessarily. However I think they are planning for the long haul - get in - deliver improvements over the current state (which won't be hard) - watch the Tories implode (which is inevitable) - get a new mandate.0 -
I still disagree with you on the cause. You still argue it was QE. I argue it was the monster fiscal splurge.TheBigBean said:
You thought it was unreasonable when I made it at the time.rick_chasey said:
Absolutely. Not an unreasonable argument to suggest all that global stimulus is why we're getting whacked by inflation.pblakeney said:The money tree was found when they were looking for some compliant masks.
Covid days were the complete opposite of austerity as far as I see it.0 -
I argued there would be inflation for a number of reasons including QE. You disagreed entirely.rick_chasey said:
I still disagree with you on the cause. You still argue it was QE. I argue it was the monster fiscal splurge.TheBigBean said:
You thought it was unreasonable when I made it at the time.rick_chasey said:
Absolutely. Not an unreasonable argument to suggest all that global stimulus is why we're getting whacked by inflation.pblakeney said:The money tree was found when they were looking for some compliant masks.
Covid days were the complete opposite of austerity as far as I see it.1 -
Go for it Jezza
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/12/mayor-jeremy-corbyn-he-can-still-destroy-the-labour-party/"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo_666 said:
I think that, on the whole, Starmer would enjoy reading that... it's quite flattering.0 -
Not too flattering about the party though. Even if he is vaguely sensible he will be undone by the leftie sh*t show that is his party. Witness Rayner today promising to unleash the union attack dogs on business if they win.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I think that, on the whole, Starmer would enjoy reading that... it's quite flattering.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo_666 said:
Not too flattering about the party though. Even if he is vaguely sensible he will be undone by the leftie sh*t show that is his party. Witness Rayner today promising to unleash the union attack dogs on business if they win.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I think that, on the whole, Starmer would enjoy reading that... it's quite flattering.
I'm not expecting the Telegraph to be overly flattering, so was surprised by the credit given to Starmer.
If the Tories carry on in their current trajectory, with only empty UKIP-like slogans as policies, Labour won't have to work too hard (though Starmer seems to have shown he's got pretty good control of the party). And there might be a calculation that the disaffected Torbrexit voters might actually return to the Labour fold if they talk about a bit of economic levelling up for those 'left behind' who thought that Brexit was the answer.0 -
As I've said before, be careful what you wish for:
https://telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/12/labours-mask-is-beginning-to-slip/"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I think there's a mountain of evidence in the UK that union laws are too weak currently.Stevo_666 said:As I've said before, be careful what you wish for:
https://telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/12/labours-mask-is-beginning-to-slip/0 -
Sorry, is the Telegraph claiming that the government has been effective in limiting strike action?Stevo_666 said:As I've said before, be careful what you wish for:
https://telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/12/labours-mask-is-beginning-to-slip/
🤣1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I don't think Rayner can be described as a mask. She's there to keep the Left happy and has never been one to hide her views. I'm shocked to see a balanced newspaper like The Telegraph trying to attack Labour though honestly.Stevo_666 said:As I've said before, be careful what you wish for:
https://telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/12/labours-mask-is-beginning-to-slip/0 -
I would have thought the party of fvck business would approve of thatStevo_666 said:
Not too flattering about the party though. Even if he is vaguely sensible he will be undone by the leftie sh*t show that is his party. Witness Rayner today promising to unleash the union attack dogs on business if they win.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I think that, on the whole, Starmer would enjoy reading that... it's quite flattering.0 -
It is very hard to be scared about the potential of left wing loons taking over the Labour party when the people that David Cameron actually called the swivel eyed loons have been running the Tories for the last 8 years.surrey_commuter said:
I would have thought the party of fvck business would approve of thatStevo_666 said:
Not too flattering about the party though. Even if he is vaguely sensible he will be undone by the leftie sh*t show that is his party. Witness Rayner today promising to unleash the union attack dogs on business if they win.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I think that, on the whole, Starmer would enjoy reading that... it's quite flattering.
If you take the view, as I do, that the extremes of either party should be ushered somewhere far far away without a map, then ask yourself what's more likely;
A Corbyn revival, introducing 80% top rate tax and creating state provided everything including broadband.
Or Braverman/Rees Mogg becoming Tory leader then implementing policies to lock up anyone claiming asylum in a barge for several years; and "supercharging the economy by cutting tax for high earners" funded by stopping NHS treatment and benefits for anyone who's been out of work for more than 6 months?0 -
I don't think sorjsterry said:
Sorry, is the Telegraph claiming that the government has been effective in limiting strike action?Stevo_666 said:As I've said before, be careful what you wish for:
https://telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/12/labours-mask-is-beginning-to-slip/
🤣
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
The real party of fvck business is waiting in the wings...surrey_commuter said:
I would have thought the party of fvck business would approve of thatStevo_666 said:
Not too flattering about the party though. Even if he is vaguely sensible he will be undone by the leftie sh*t show that is his party. Witness Rayner today promising to unleash the union attack dogs on business if they win.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I think that, on the whole, Starmer would enjoy reading that... it's quite flattering."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
In what way?rick_chasey said:
I think there's a mountain of evidence in the UK that union laws are too weak currently.Stevo_666 said:As I've said before, be careful what you wish for:
https://telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/12/labours-mask-is-beginning-to-slip/"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Let's see. Not expecting any immediate repeal of all the extra obligations piled on by the current crowd nor a sudden tax cut but some stability would be a massive improvement. What more do you think they will do than the current lot? Shroud-waving about the unions is a bit meaningless when they are already striking across the board.Stevo_666 said:
The real party of fvck business is waiting in the wings...surrey_commuter said:
I would have thought the party of fvck business would approve of thatStevo_666 said:
Not too flattering about the party though. Even if he is vaguely sensible he will be undone by the leftie sh*t show that is his party. Witness Rayner today promising to unleash the union attack dogs on business if they win.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I think that, on the whole, Starmer would enjoy reading that... it's quite flattering.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
not sure you can get more real than the leader stating it.Stevo_666 said:
The real party of fvck business is waiting in the wings...surrey_commuter said:
I would have thought the party of fvck business would approve of thatStevo_666 said:
Not too flattering about the party though. Even if he is vaguely sensible he will be undone by the leftie sh*t show that is his party. Witness Rayner today promising to unleash the union attack dogs on business if they win.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I think that, on the whole, Starmer would enjoy reading that... it's quite flattering.
To be fair in context he was not saying he wanted to fvck business he was merely saying that he did not care about it.
When you consider the record levels of debt, borrowing, and taxes it is remarkable how far the current iteration of the Tory Party has moved from their traditional values.0 -
I agree that one of them could easily become the next leader and/or the one after but I really don't think they will be implementing any policiessuper_davo said:
It is very hard to be scared about the potential of left wing loons taking over the Labour party when the people that David Cameron actually called the swivel eyed loons have been running the Tories for the last 8 years.surrey_commuter said:
I would have thought the party of fvck business would approve of thatStevo_666 said:
Not too flattering about the party though. Even if he is vaguely sensible he will be undone by the leftie sh*t show that is his party. Witness Rayner today promising to unleash the union attack dogs on business if they win.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I think that, on the whole, Starmer would enjoy reading that... it's quite flattering.
If you take the view, as I do, that the extremes of either party should be ushered somewhere far far away without a map, then ask yourself what's more likely;
A Corbyn revival, introducing 80% top rate tax and creating state provided everything including broadband.
Or Braverman/Rees Mogg becoming Tory leader then implementing policies to lock up anyone claiming asylum in a barge for several years; and "supercharging the economy by cutting tax for high earners" funded by stopping NHS treatment and benefits for anyone who's been out of work for more than 6 months?0 -
Just amazing that the Conservatives saw what one member one vote did to Labour and thought 'that's what we need!'surrey_commuter said:
I agree that one of them could easily become the next leader and/or the one after but I really don't think they will be implementing any policiessuper_davo said:
It is very hard to be scared about the potential of left wing loons taking over the Labour party when the people that David Cameron actually called the swivel eyed loons have been running the Tories for the last 8 years.surrey_commuter said:
I would have thought the party of fvck business would approve of thatStevo_666 said:
Not too flattering about the party though. Even if he is vaguely sensible he will be undone by the leftie sh*t show that is his party. Witness Rayner today promising to unleash the union attack dogs on business if they win.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I think that, on the whole, Starmer would enjoy reading that... it's quite flattering.
If you take the view, as I do, that the extremes of either party should be ushered somewhere far far away without a map, then ask yourself what's more likely;
A Corbyn revival, introducing 80% top rate tax and creating state provided everything including broadband.
Or Braverman/Rees Mogg becoming Tory leader then implementing policies to lock up anyone claiming asylum in a barge for several years; and "supercharging the economy by cutting tax for high earners" funded by stopping NHS treatment and benefits for anyone who's been out of work for more than 6 months?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
A decade and a half of wage stagnation.Stevo_666 said:
In what way?rick_chasey said:
I think there's a mountain of evidence in the UK that union laws are too weak currently.Stevo_666 said:As I've said before, be careful what you wish for:
https://telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/12/labours-mask-is-beginning-to-slip/0 -
Surely stronger unions would have been pushing for higher wages.rick_chasey said:
A decade and a half of wage stagnation.Stevo_666 said:
In what way?rick_chasey said:
I think there's a mountain of evidence in the UK that union laws are too weak currently.Stevo_666 said:As I've said before, be careful what you wish for:
https://telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/12/labours-mask-is-beginning-to-slip/
This indicates the unions laws are either too strong or just right at best.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
So there is a mainstream school of thought that stagnating productivity has a lack of union strength elementpblakeney said:
Surely stronger unions would have been pushing for higher wages.rick_chasey said:
A decade and a half of wage stagnation.Stevo_666 said:
In what way?rick_chasey said:
I think there's a mountain of evidence in the UK that union laws are too weak currently.Stevo_666 said:As I've said before, be careful what you wish for:
https://telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/12/labours-mask-is-beginning-to-slip/
This indicates the unions laws are either too strong or just right at best.0 -
Possibly, but what has that to do with laws being too weak?rick_chasey said:
So there is a mainstream school of thought that stagnating productivity has a lack of union strength elementpblakeney said:
Surely stronger unions would have been pushing for higher wages.rick_chasey said:
A decade and a half of wage stagnation.Stevo_666 said:
In what way?rick_chasey said:
I think there's a mountain of evidence in the UK that union laws are too weak currently.Stevo_666 said:As I've said before, be careful what you wish for:
https://telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/12/labours-mask-is-beginning-to-slip/
This indicates the unions laws are either too strong or just right at best.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
It's the difference between saying and doing...surrey_commuter said:
not sure you can get more real than the leader stating it.Stevo_666 said:
The real party of fvck business is waiting in the wings...surrey_commuter said:
I would have thought the party of fvck business would approve of thatStevo_666 said:
Not too flattering about the party though. Even if he is vaguely sensible he will be undone by the leftie sh*t show that is his party. Witness Rayner today promising to unleash the union attack dogs on business if they win.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I think that, on the whole, Starmer would enjoy reading that... it's quite flattering.
To be fair in context he was not saying he wanted to fvck business he was merely saying that he did not care about it.
When you consider the record levels of debt, borrowing, and taxes it is remarkable how far the current iteration of the Tory Party has moved from their traditional values."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Tax-wise we shall have to see but they need to find some way of funding their plans which has not yet been disclosed. However letting the hard left union bosses off the leash is somewhat anti-business for starters, hence my link above about Rayner pandering to the TUC.rjsterry said:
Let's see. Not expecting any immediate repeal of all the extra obligations piled on by the current crowd nor a sudden tax cut but some stability would be a massive improvement. What more do you think they will do than the current lot? Shroud-waving about the unions is a bit meaningless when they are already striking across the board.Stevo_666 said:
The real party of fvck business is waiting in the wings...surrey_commuter said:
I would have thought the party of fvck business would approve of thatStevo_666 said:
Not too flattering about the party though. Even if he is vaguely sensible he will be undone by the leftie sh*t show that is his party. Witness Rayner today promising to unleash the union attack dogs on business if they win.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I think that, on the whole, Starmer would enjoy reading that... it's quite flattering."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
It's not panto season yet, but my reply is 'oh yes it is'...super_davo said:
It is very hard to be scared about the potential of left wing loons taking over the Labour partysurrey_commuter said:
I would have thought the party of fvck business would approve of thatStevo_666 said:
Not too flattering about the party though. Even if he is vaguely sensible he will be undone by the leftie sh*t show that is his party. Witness Rayner today promising to unleash the union attack dogs on business if they win.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I think that, on the whole, Starmer would enjoy reading that... it's quite flattering.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
can you talk us through thatrick_chasey said:
So there is a mainstream school of thought that stagnating productivity has a lack of union strength elementpblakeney said:
Surely stronger unions would have been pushing for higher wages.rick_chasey said:
A decade and a half of wage stagnation.Stevo_666 said:
In what way?rick_chasey said:
I think there's a mountain of evidence in the UK that union laws are too weak currently.Stevo_666 said:As I've said before, be careful what you wish for:
https://telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2023/09/12/labours-mask-is-beginning-to-slip/
This indicates the unions laws are either too strong or just right at best.0 -
I pretty sure that Labour have not said they are going to do any of those things.Stevo_666 said:
It's the difference between saying and doing...surrey_commuter said:
not sure you can get more real than the leader stating it.Stevo_666 said:
The real party of fvck business is waiting in the wings...surrey_commuter said:
I would have thought the party of fvck business would approve of thatStevo_666 said:
Not too flattering about the party though. Even if he is vaguely sensible he will be undone by the leftie sh*t show that is his party. Witness Rayner today promising to unleash the union attack dogs on business if they win.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I think that, on the whole, Starmer would enjoy reading that... it's quite flattering.
To be fair in context he was not saying he wanted to fvck business he was merely saying that he did not care about it.
When you consider the record levels of debt, borrowing, and taxes it is remarkable how far the current iteration of the Tory Party has moved from their traditional values.0 -
Tax and regulation-wise the anti-business bar has been set pretty high. Likewise with unfunded spending plans.Stevo_666 said:
Tax-wise we shall have to see but they need to find some way of funding their plans which has not yet been disclosed. However letting the hard left union bosses off the leash is somewhat anti-business for starters, hence my link above about Rayner pandering to the TUC.rjsterry said:
Let's see. Not expecting any immediate repeal of all the extra obligations piled on by the current crowd nor a sudden tax cut but some stability would be a massive improvement. What more do you think they will do than the current lot? Shroud-waving about the unions is a bit meaningless when they are already striking across the board.Stevo_666 said:
The real party of fvck business is waiting in the wings...surrey_commuter said:
I would have thought the party of fvck business would approve of thatStevo_666 said:
Not too flattering about the party though. Even if he is vaguely sensible he will be undone by the leftie sh*t show that is his party. Witness Rayner today promising to unleash the union attack dogs on business if they win.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I think that, on the whole, Starmer would enjoy reading that... it's quite flattering.
We don't really do unions in the construction industry. Struggling to think how 'letting the union bosses off the leash' - if they are even on a leash to start with - would make things worse than the current set up.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0
