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  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,538
    rick_chasey said:

    In what way is it whaterboutery?

    Brexit has a much bigger impact on UK finances than changing the top rate of income tax from 50 to 45.

    'What about Brexit, it's much worse' - said Rick.

    Comparing a single tax policy change to a major shift in a nation's situation doesn't really make a great point.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,734
    edited November 2019
    I just find your position on it inconsistent. Brexit for you is something to get over with, but the top rate of tax is something to bang on about for 5 years; on the premise that it's advantageous to the tax man.
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    Stevo_666 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    Saw something recently that Labour’s tax plans will raise £6bn and that is assuming behavioural changes reducing it from a potential £11bn.

    Compared to how much planned spending?
    You will have to expand on that as I really don’t see the relevance

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,688
    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    So if I have that right: raising it didn't change receipts beyond background variation and lowering the rate only created one bumper year because of one-off deferrals from the previous year. Hmm.

    So why bother? In the end it was an act of political spite as KG mentioned.

    Longer term we need to stay competitive in attracting investment and entrepreneurs.
    Most entrepreneurs already live here. They don't need to be attracted from anywhere. Maybe we should prioritise them.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    So if I have that right: raising it didn't change receipts beyond background variation and lowering the rate only created one bumper year because of one-off deferrals from the previous year. Hmm.

    So why bother? In the end it was an act of political spite as KG mentioned.

    Longer term we need to stay competitive in attracting investment and entrepreneurs.
    Most entrepreneurs already live here. They don't need to be attracted from anywhere. Maybe we should prioritise them.
    A lot of the top entrepreneurs in the USA are immigrants or 2nd generation. Their previously open economy has often been stated as one of the reasons behind it's long period of economic out-performance
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,688
    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    So if I have that right: raising it didn't change receipts beyond background variation and lowering the rate only created one bumper year because of one-off deferrals from the previous year. Hmm.

    So why bother? In the end it was an act of political spite as KG mentioned.

    Longer term we need to stay competitive in attracting investment and entrepreneurs.
    Most entrepreneurs already live here. They don't need to be attracted from anywhere. Maybe we should prioritise them.
    A lot of the top entrepreneurs in the USA are immigrants or 2nd generation. Their previously open economy has often been stated as one of the reasons behind it's long period of economic out-performance
    It was more a comment on Stevo's apparently rather narrow definition of entrepreneur.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,538
    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    So if I have that right: raising it didn't change receipts beyond background variation and lowering the rate only created one bumper year because of one-off deferrals from the previous year. Hmm.

    So why bother? In the end it was an act of political spite as KG mentioned.

    Longer term we need to stay competitive in attracting investment and entrepreneurs.
    Most entrepreneurs already live here. They don't need to be attracted from anywhere. Maybe we should prioritise them.
    If that's your view, I don't think you really get this international economy business.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,538
    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    So if I have that right: raising it didn't change receipts beyond background variation and lowering the rate only created one bumper year because of one-off deferrals from the previous year. Hmm.

    So why bother? In the end it was an act of political spite as KG mentioned.

    Longer term we need to stay competitive in attracting investment and entrepreneurs.
    Most entrepreneurs already live here. They don't need to be attracted from anywhere. Maybe we should prioritise them.
    A lot of the top entrepreneurs in the USA are immigrants or 2nd generation. Their previously open economy has often been stated as one of the reasons behind it's long period of economic out-performance
    It was more a comment on Stevo's apparently rather narrow definition of entrepreneur.
    What definition was that?
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,538
    surrey_commuter said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    Saw something recently that Labour’s tax plans will raise £6bn and that is assuming behavioural changes reducing it from a potential £11bn.

    Compared to how much planned spending?
    You will have to expand on that as I really don’t see the relevance

    Just trying to see what they say they will raise compared with what they say they will spend.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,734
    Stevo_666 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    Saw something recently that Labour’s tax plans will raise £6bn and that is assuming behavioural changes reducing it from a potential £11bn.

    Compared to how much planned spending?
    You will have to expand on that as I really don’t see the relevance

    Just trying to see what they say they will raise compared with what they say they will spend.
    After the proposed Tory brexit the hole in the finances will be bigger than what labour are proposing sans Brexit #justsaying.
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    Stevo_666 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    Saw something recently that Labour’s tax plans will raise £6bn and that is assuming behavioural changes reducing it from a potential £11bn.

    Compared to how much planned spending?
    You will have to expand on that as I really don’t see the relevance

    Just trying to see what they say they will raise compared with what they say they will spend.
    My point was that it put a cost on behavioural changes
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,688
    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    So if I have that right: raising it didn't change receipts beyond background variation and lowering the rate only created one bumper year because of one-off deferrals from the previous year. Hmm.

    So why bother? In the end it was an act of political spite as KG mentioned.

    Longer term we need to stay competitive in attracting investment and entrepreneurs.
    Most entrepreneurs already live here. They don't need to be attracted from anywhere. Maybe we should prioritise them.
    A lot of the top entrepreneurs in the USA are immigrants or 2nd generation. Their previously open economy has often been stated as one of the reasons behind it's long period of economic out-performance
    It was more a comment on Stevo's apparently rather narrow definition of entrepreneur.
    What definition was that?
    To read some of your posts you'd think the only investors in new or growing businesses are from outside the UK. Obviously they are part of it, but a guy starting up a small business with his life savings and a small bank loan secured on his house is also an entrepreneur.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,538
    edited November 2019
    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    So if I have that right: raising it didn't change receipts beyond background variation and lowering the rate only created one bumper year because of one-off deferrals from the previous year. Hmm.

    So why bother? In the end it was an act of political spite as KG mentioned.

    Longer term we need to stay competitive in attracting investment and entrepreneurs.
    Most entrepreneurs already live here. They don't need to be attracted from anywhere. Maybe we should prioritise them.
    A lot of the top entrepreneurs in the USA are immigrants or 2nd generation. Their previously open economy has often been stated as one of the reasons behind it's long period of economic out-performance
    It was more a comment on Stevo's apparently rather narrow definition of entrepreneur.
    What definition was that?
    To read some of your posts you'd think the only investors in new or growing businesses are from outside the UK. Obviously they are part of it, but a guy starting up a small business with his life savings and a small bank loan secured on his house is also an entrepreneur.
    Clearly the home grown ones dont need attracting here (although the more successful ones should not be scared off or disincentivised). However attracting internationally mobile capital is important - similar to the situation where most UK trade is domestic, but nobody is saying that overseas trade doesnt matter.

    I also include the internationally mobile corporate capital here rather than your rather narrow definition ;) I have commented on this point before including what are the motivations and how there is a choice in many cases, hence the reality of tax competition.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,262
    What cost has the Tory party attached to their plan for a Brexit with no trade deal? It can't be tax neutral over the length of a parliament, surely?
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,688
    kingstongraham said:

    What cost has the Tory party attached to their plan for a Brexit with no trade deal? It can't be tax neutral over the length of a parliament, surely?

    Perhaps they are banking on having to extend the transition period for the duration of the Parliament.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,262
    rjsterry said:

    kingstongraham said:

    What cost has the Tory party attached to their plan for a Brexit with no trade deal? It can't be tax neutral over the length of a parliament, surely?

    Perhaps they are banking on having to extend the transition period for the duration of the Parliament.
    In bold, in the manifesto "we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020".

    If ever there was another reason needed to vote them out.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,688
    kingstongraham said:

    rjsterry said:

    kingstongraham said:

    What cost has the Tory party attached to their plan for a Brexit with no trade deal? It can't be tax neutral over the length of a parliament, surely?

    Perhaps they are banking on having to extend the transition period for the duration of the Parliament.
    In bold, in the manifesto "we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020".

    If ever there was another reason needed to vote them out.
    Either he'll concede as he did in October and we'll take whatever time it takes to agree a trade deal. Or we'll terminate the transition period and negotiate the trade agreement from an even weaker position over a comparable period of time.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,262
    But as that is the stated position, it's dishonest not to include its impact in forecast costings of policies.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,538
    kingstongraham said:



    If ever there was another reason needed to vote them out.

    Best of luck with that.

    Give Jo Swinson more air time I say, that should kill off any chances.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    rjsterry said:

    kingstongraham said:

    rjsterry said:

    kingstongraham said:

    What cost has the Tory party attached to their plan for a Brexit with no trade deal? It can't be tax neutral over the length of a parliament, surely?

    Perhaps they are banking on having to extend the transition period for the duration of the Parliament.
    In bold, in the manifesto "we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020".

    If ever there was another reason needed to vote them out.
    Either he'll concede as he did in October and we'll take whatever time it takes to agree a trade deal. Or we'll terminate the transition period and negotiate the trade agreement from an even weaker position over a comparable period of time.
    Setting yourself a hard deadline is a very effective way of weakening your bargaining position. The genius of BoJo is that nobody knows whether he is a moron or a liar
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,688
    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    kingstongraham said:

    rjsterry said:

    kingstongraham said:

    What cost has the Tory party attached to their plan for a Brexit with no trade deal? It can't be tax neutral over the length of a parliament, surely?

    Perhaps they are banking on having to extend the transition period for the duration of the Parliament.
    In bold, in the manifesto "we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020".

    If ever there was another reason needed to vote them out.
    Either he'll concede as he did in October and we'll take whatever time it takes to agree a trade deal. Or we'll terminate the transition period and negotiate the trade agreement from an even weaker position over a comparable period of time.
    Setting yourself a hard deadline is a very effective way of weakening your bargaining position. The genius of BoJo is that nobody knows whether he is a moron or a liar
    Nobody knows? It's been endlessly demonstrated that he is the latter.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,734
    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    So if I have that right: raising it didn't change receipts beyond background variation and lowering the rate only created one bumper year because of one-off deferrals from the previous year. Hmm.

    So why bother? In the end it was an act of political spite as KG mentioned.

    Longer term we need to stay competitive in attracting investment and entrepreneurs.
    Most entrepreneurs already live here. They don't need to be attracted from anywhere. Maybe we should prioritise them.
    A lot of the top entrepreneurs in the USA are immigrants or 2nd generation. Their previously open economy has often been stated as one of the reasons behind it's long period of economic out-performance
    It was more a comment on Stevo's apparently rather narrow definition of entrepreneur.
    What definition was that?
    To read some of your posts you'd think the only investors in new or growing businesses are from outside the UK. Obviously they are part of it, but a guy starting up a small business with his life savings and a small bank loan secured on his house is also an entrepreneur.
    Clearly the home grown ones dont need attracting here (although the more successful ones should not be scared off or disincentivised). However attracting internationally mobile capital is important - similar to the situation where most UK trade is domestic, but nobody is saying that overseas trade doesnt matter.

    I also include the internationally mobile corporate capital here rather than your rather narrow definition ;) I have commented on this point before including what are the motivations and how there is a choice in many cases, hence the reality of tax competition.
    You'd be more convincing if you were arguing for encouraging competition by assisting start ups specifically, especially in industries which are oligpolistic.

    Unfortunately what you propose ends up benefiting big business much more than their smaller rivals (as they have the economies of scale to maximise their position) and ends up reducing competition.
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    kingstongraham said:

    rjsterry said:

    kingstongraham said:

    What cost has the Tory party attached to their plan for a Brexit with no trade deal? It can't be tax neutral over the length of a parliament, surely?

    Perhaps they are banking on having to extend the transition period for the duration of the Parliament.
    In bold, in the manifesto "we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020".

    If ever there was another reason needed to vote them out.
    Either he'll concede as he did in October and we'll take whatever time it takes to agree a trade deal. Or we'll terminate the transition period and negotiate the trade agreement from an even weaker position over a comparable period of time.
    Setting yourself a hard deadline is a very effective way of weakening your bargaining position. The genius of BoJo is that nobody knows whether he is a moron or a liar
    Nobody knows? It's been endlessly demonstrated that he is the latter.
    Probably should have said “being moronic or lying”

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,688
    edited November 2019
    They're hardly mutually exclusive. But based on October it's very much the latter. He doesn't actually want to be the PM that brought about a recession.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/26/british-jews-corbyn-emigrate
    Keith Kahn-Harris said:

    Some also worry about the possibility of kosher slaughter being banned, funding for Jewish communal security being cut, and an atmosphere of tolerance for certain kinds of antisemitic abuse. Yet there are no hard policy proposals that would suggest any of this is planned. The fear is ultimately a more generalised sense of “existential threat”.

    "Some also worry..." is just "I read it on Twitter..."

    I've lost complete track of this whole thing now, but forgive me for suggesting that the Jewish community is being used as a pawn in this most recent political battle.
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
    Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/143173475@N05/
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,734
    ben6899 said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/26/british-jews-corbyn-emigrate

    Keith Kahn-Harris said:

    Some also worry about the possibility of kosher slaughter being banned, funding for Jewish communal security being cut, and an atmosphere of tolerance for certain kinds of antisemitic abuse. Yet there are no hard policy proposals that would suggest any of this is planned. The fear is ultimately a more generalised sense of “existential threat”.

    "Some also worry..." is just "I read it on Twitter..."

    I've lost complete track of this whole thing now, but forgive me for suggesting that the Jewish community is being used as a pawn in this most recent political battle.
    JC's inteview wasn't quite a car crash of royal proportions, but it was pretty f*cking awful.

    There's a bit where Neil is picking him up on his rothschild conspiracy nonsense and it takes about 5 pushes by Neil to get a strangled answer out of JC.
    _
  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686
    But where is all this nonsense about banning kosher slaughter etc coming from? The things which would actively worsen a Jewish person's life, here in the UK.

    Who's pushing that? It's all very clearly made up nonsense. And it's scaring people.
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
    Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/143173475@N05/
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    ben6899 said:

    But where is all this nonsense about banning kosher slaughter etc coming from? The things which would actively worsen a Jewish person's life, here in the UK.

    Who's pushing that? It's all very clearly made up nonsense. And it's scaring people.

    The RSPCA for a start.
  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686
    bompington said:

    ben6899 said:

    But where is all this nonsense about banning kosher slaughter etc coming from? The things which would actively worsen a Jewish person's life, here in the UK.

    Who's pushing that? It's all very clearly made up nonsense. And it's scaring people.

    The RSPCA for a start.
    No. Who's telling people that Labour will implement it?

    You know when the Daily Mail has an article like "all meat in supermarkets will be Halal from 2020" and we find ourselves explaining to less-enlightened family members that it's scare tactics to influence people's political allegiances.

    This is the same kind of propaganda. No one is forcing Halal on people who don't want it. No one is banning Halal slaughter and no one is banning Kosher slaughter.

    Regardless of what some bodies would like.

    It's all complete nonsense and people fall for it.

    I despair.
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
    Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/143173475@N05/
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,734
    The bigger issue is why Corbyn loves the anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, tbh.
    _

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