Join the Labour Party and save your country!

rjsterry

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

finchy wrote:

So in a 2-horse race between the Tories and Labour, we shouldn't vote Labour because JC laid a wreath at a ceremony to commemorate Palestinian and Tunisian victims of Israeli bombing (his version)/the grave of a Munich hijacker

If only that was Corbyns only failing...never mind the rest of New Old Labour.

To my mind, and the most important reason I probably won't vote Labour at the next GE, JC's biggest failing is promising to leave the single market.

The Tories/"moderate" Labour, on the other hand, now where do we start? The support for unjustified wars? Refusal to properly regulate the lending markets in the 1990s/2000s? P1ssing away billions of £ on pointless reforms in the education system when hordes of experienced teachers quit every year? Support for dictatorships?

So who will you waste your vote on?

Living in a Conservative constituency, I'll probably vote LD, as they might be able to oust the scandal-hit Damian Green at the next election, especially as here in Ashford we're likely to really get hit hard by Brexit.

Having just listened to Chris Grayling being interviewed I'm not sure who has wasted their vote. More seriously, unless you are going to run for office or get heavily involved in campaigning, all you can influence is the choice of your local MP. Your one vote will not decide which party forms a government; the only battle you can 'win' is to have your preferred local candidate elected. The last election showed that the idea of a 'safe seat' is waning, which can only be a good thing. Even if the sitting MP isn't defeated, reducing their majority sends a signal that they need to do better, so I don't think any votes are wasted.

Grayling is widely considered to be one of the dumbest MPs which in a highly competitive field is some accolade. Not only that but he has consistently promoted into the Cabinet.

The turnout in his constituency was 59,468 of which he won 35,313 votes (an absolute majority) with a majority of 20,475. My voting against him would have no impact on the democratic process of this country.

Your one vote on its own never will, nor should it. It would take some organising but if everyone in your constituency take the view that changing the minds of 20,475 is an impossible task then it is certain that nothing will happen.

surrey_commuter

rjsterry wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

finchy wrote:

So in a 2-horse race between the Tories and Labour, we shouldn't vote Labour because JC laid a wreath at a ceremony to commemorate Palestinian and Tunisian victims of Israeli bombing (his version)/the grave of a Munich hijacker

If only that was Corbyns only failing...never mind the rest of New Old Labour.

To my mind, and the most important reason I probably won't vote Labour at the next GE, JC's biggest failing is promising to leave the single market.

The Tories/"moderate" Labour, on the other hand, now where do we start? The support for unjustified wars? Refusal to properly regulate the lending markets in the 1990s/2000s? P1ssing away billions of £ on pointless reforms in the education system when hordes of experienced teachers quit every year? Support for dictatorships?

So who will you waste your vote on?

Living in a Conservative constituency, I'll probably vote LD, as they might be able to oust the scandal-hit Damian Green at the next election, especially as here in Ashford we're likely to really get hit hard by Brexit.

Having just listened to Chris Grayling being interviewed I'm not sure who has wasted their vote. More seriously, unless you are going to run for office or get heavily involved in campaigning, all you can influence is the choice of your local MP. Your one vote will not decide which party forms a government; the only battle you can 'win' is to have your preferred local candidate elected. The last election showed that the idea of a 'safe seat' is waning, which can only be a good thing. Even if the sitting MP isn't defeated, reducing their majority sends a signal that they need to do better, so I don't think any votes are wasted.

Grayling is widely considered to be one of the dumbest MPs which in a highly competitive field is some accolade. Not only that but he has consistently promoted into the Cabinet.

The turnout in his constituency was 59,468 of which he won 35,313 votes (an absolute majority) with a majority of 20,475. My voting against him would have no impact on the democratic process of this country.

Your one vote on its own never will, nor should it. It would take some organising but if everyone in your constituency take the view that changing the minds of 20,475 is an impossible task then it is certain that nothing will happen.

Do you think that is more or less productive than dedicating the same amount of time and effort to changing the electoral system?

rjsterry

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

finchy wrote:

So in a 2-horse race between the Tories and Labour, we shouldn't vote Labour because JC laid a wreath at a ceremony to commemorate Palestinian and Tunisian victims of Israeli bombing (his version)/the grave of a Munich hijacker

If only that was Corbyns only failing...never mind the rest of New Old Labour.

To my mind, and the most important reason I probably won't vote Labour at the next GE, JC's biggest failing is promising to leave the single market.

The Tories/"moderate" Labour, on the other hand, now where do we start? The support for unjustified wars? Refusal to properly regulate the lending markets in the 1990s/2000s? P1ssing away billions of £ on pointless reforms in the education system when hordes of experienced teachers quit every year? Support for dictatorships?

So who will you waste your vote on?

Living in a Conservative constituency, I'll probably vote LD, as they might be able to oust the scandal-hit Damian Green at the next election, especially as here in Ashford we're likely to really get hit hard by Brexit.

Having just listened to Chris Grayling being interviewed I'm not sure who has wasted their vote. More seriously, unless you are going to run for office or get heavily involved in campaigning, all you can influence is the choice of your local MP. Your one vote will not decide which party forms a government; the only battle you can 'win' is to have your preferred local candidate elected. The last election showed that the idea of a 'safe seat' is waning, which can only be a good thing. Even if the sitting MP isn't defeated, reducing their majority sends a signal that they need to do better, so I don't think any votes are wasted.

Grayling is widely considered to be one of the dumbest MPs which in a highly competitive field is some accolade. Not only that but he has consistently promoted into the Cabinet.

The turnout in his constituency was 59,468 of which he won 35,313 votes (an absolute majority) with a majority of 20,475. My voting against him would have no impact on the democratic process of this country.

Your one vote on its own never will, nor should it. It would take some organising but if everyone in your constituency take the view that changing the minds of 20,475 is an impossible task then it is certain that nothing will happen.

Do you think that is more or less productive than dedicating the same amount of time and effort to changing the electoral system?

Not sure why you need to choose between them beyond the limitations of how much time you want to devote. The electoral system is only going to change if it can get through parliament, and for that you need to get sympathetic MPs elected under FPTP.

pblakeney

rjsterry wrote:

Not sure why you need to choose between them beyond the limitations of how much time you want to devote. The electoral system is only going to change if it can get through parliament, and for that you need to get sympathetic MPs elected under FPTP.

Turkeys wouldn't vote for Christmas, and elected MPs are not going to change a "winning" system.
Which explains why we are where we are........ self interest.

surrey_commuter

rjsterry wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

finchy wrote:

So in a 2-horse race between the Tories and Labour, we shouldn't vote Labour because JC laid a wreath at a ceremony to commemorate Palestinian and Tunisian victims of Israeli bombing (his version)/the grave of a Munich hijacker

If only that was Corbyns only failing...never mind the rest of New Old Labour.

To my mind, and the most important reason I probably won't vote Labour at the next GE, JC's biggest failing is promising to leave the single market.

The Tories/"moderate" Labour, on the other hand, now where do we start? The support for unjustified wars? Refusal to properly regulate the lending markets in the 1990s/2000s? P1ssing away billions of £ on pointless reforms in the education system when hordes of experienced teachers quit every year? Support for dictatorships?

So who will you waste your vote on?

Living in a Conservative constituency, I'll probably vote LD, as they might be able to oust the scandal-hit Damian Green at the next election, especially as here in Ashford we're likely to really get hit hard by Brexit.

Having just listened to Chris Grayling being interviewed I'm not sure who has wasted their vote. More seriously, unless you are going to run for office or get heavily involved in campaigning, all you can influence is the choice of your local MP. Your one vote will not decide which party forms a government; the only battle you can 'win' is to have your preferred local candidate elected. The last election showed that the idea of a 'safe seat' is waning, which can only be a good thing. Even if the sitting MP isn't defeated, reducing their majority sends a signal that they need to do better, so I don't think any votes are wasted.

Grayling is widely considered to be one of the dumbest MPs which in a highly competitive field is some accolade. Not only that but he has consistently promoted into the Cabinet.

The turnout in his constituency was 59,468 of which he won 35,313 votes (an absolute majority) with a majority of 20,475. My voting against him would have no impact on the democratic process of this country.

Your one vote on its own never will, nor should it. It would take some organising but if everyone in your constituency take the view that changing the minds of 20,475 is an impossible task then it is certain that nothing will happen.

Do you think that is more or less productive than dedicating the same amount of time and effort to changing the electoral system?

Not sure why you need to choose between them beyond the limitations of how much time you want to devote. The electoral system is only going to change if it can get through parliament, and for that you need to get sympathetic MPs elected under FPTP.

Maybe my time is best spent by wasting his, so limiting his ability to harvest more votes

rjsterry

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

finchy wrote:

So in a 2-horse race between the Tories and Labour, we shouldn't vote Labour because JC laid a wreath at a ceremony to commemorate Palestinian and Tunisian victims of Israeli bombing (his version)/the grave of a Munich hijacker

If only that was Corbyns only failing...never mind the rest of New Old Labour.

To my mind, and the most important reason I probably won't vote Labour at the next GE, JC's biggest failing is promising to leave the single market.

The Tories/"moderate" Labour, on the other hand, now where do we start? The support for unjustified wars? Refusal to properly regulate the lending markets in the 1990s/2000s? P1ssing away billions of £ on pointless reforms in the education system when hordes of experienced teachers quit every year? Support for dictatorships?

So who will you waste your vote on?

Living in a Conservative constituency, I'll probably vote LD, as they might be able to oust the scandal-hit Damian Green at the next election, especially as here in Ashford we're likely to really get hit hard by Brexit.

Having just listened to Chris Grayling being interviewed I'm not sure who has wasted their vote. More seriously, unless you are going to run for office or get heavily involved in campaigning, all you can influence is the choice of your local MP. Your one vote will not decide which party forms a government; the only battle you can 'win' is to have your preferred local candidate elected. The last election showed that the idea of a 'safe seat' is waning, which can only be a good thing. Even if the sitting MP isn't defeated, reducing their majority sends a signal that they need to do better, so I don't think any votes are wasted.

Grayling is widely considered to be one of the dumbest MPs which in a highly competitive field is some accolade. Not only that but he has consistently promoted into the Cabinet.

The turnout in his constituency was 59,468 of which he won 35,313 votes (an absolute majority) with a majority of 20,475. My voting against him would have no impact on the democratic process of this country.

Your one vote on its own never will, nor should it. It would take some organising but if everyone in your constituency take the view that changing the minds of 20,475 is an impossible task then it is certain that nothing will happen.

Do you think that is more or less productive than dedicating the same amount of time and effort to changing the electoral system?

Not sure why you need to choose between them beyond the limitations of how much time you want to devote. The electoral system is only going to change if it can get through parliament, and for that you need to get sympathetic MPs elected under FPTP.

Maybe my time is best spent by wasting his, so limiting his ability to harvest more votes

I may be asking too much, but isn't a clandestine affair the preferred way to get a Conservative minister to resign? Maybe get him to send you some mucky WhatsApp messages.

Stevo_666

Even the Guardian is reporting that he was pictured at a wreath laying ceremony at the graves of the 'Black September' terrorists:
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/15/jeremy-corbyn-honesty-labour-wreath-mess

Quote: "But there are two problems with the “1985-only” line. For one thing, the photographs clearly show two distinct wreath-laying moments: one at the 1985 memorial, with Jeremy Corbyn hovering at the back, and another at a visibly different location, by the graves of senior PLO leaders reputedly involved in the 1970s with the Black September faction, which organised the massacre and torture of Israeli Olympic athletes in Munich in 1972. The men buried there had no connection with 1985, and it’s in that location that Corbyn is pictured holding a wreath.

What’s more, Corbyn himself explicitly wrote, in the Morning Star after the Tunis trip, that 1985 was not the sole focus of the ceremonies: “Wreaths were laid at the graves of those who died on that day and on the graves of others killed by Mossad agents in Paris in 1991.” So the photographs and Corbyn’s own words make the 1985-only line unsustainable."

Pretty damning evidence IMO.

mr_goo

Jezzas mates in Hezbollah and Hamas are going to be none to pleased that he is about to u-turn and make Labour party adopt the IHRA definition of anti-semitism.

ballysmate

He certainly remembered laying a wreath when he wrote his column in the Morning Star

After wreaths were laid at the graves of those who died on that day and on the graves of others killed by Mossad agents in Paris in 1991, we moved to the poignant statue in the main avenue of the coastal town of Ben Arous, which was festooned with Palestinian and Tunisian flags.

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/a-98de- ... e-united-1

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

Even the Guardian is reporting that he was pictured at a wreath laying ceremony at the graves of the 'Black September' terrorists:
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/15/jeremy-corbyn-honesty-labour-wreath-mess

Quote: "But there are two problems with the “1985-only” line. For one thing, the photographs clearly show two distinct wreath-laying moments: one at the 1985 memorial, with Jeremy Corbyn hovering at the back, and another at a visibly different location, by the graves of senior PLO leaders reputedly involved in the 1970s with the Black September faction, which organised the massacre and torture of Israeli Olympic athletes in Munich in 1972. The men buried there had no connection with 1985, and it’s in that location that Corbyn is pictured holding a wreath.

What’s more, Corbyn himself explicitly wrote, in the Morning Star after the Tunis trip, that 1985 was not the sole focus of the ceremonies: “Wreaths were laid at the graves of those who died on that day and on the graves of others killed by Mossad agents in Paris in 1991.” So the photographs and Corbyn’s own words make the 1985-only line unsustainable."

Pretty damning evidence IMO.

Was going to post the same article. I think like the author, I'd have more respect for Corbyn if he did come out and say "yes, I did lay a wreath on the graves of X and Y because Z". Everyone knows that he holds pro-Palestinian views, so why all the vagueness and obfuscation.

ballysmate

Ballysmate wrote:

He certainly remembered laying a wreath when he wrote his column in the Morning Star

After wreaths were laid at the graves of those who died on that day and on the graves of others killed by Mossad agents in Paris in 1991, we moved to the poignant statue in the main avenue of the coastal town of Ben Arous, which was festooned with Palestinian and Tunisian flags.

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/a-98de- ... e-united-1

Ooops. Hadn't seen Stevo's post. :oops:

laurentian

rjsterry wrote:

Was going to post the same article. I think like the author, I'd have more respect for Corbyn if he did come out and say "yes, I did lay a wreath on the graves of X and Y because Z". Everyone knows that he holds pro-Palestinian views, so why all the vagueness and obfuscation.

Sadly, I think it is expecting too much of any politician these days to give a straight answer to any question.

Stevo_666

Ballysmate wrote:

He certainly remembered laying a wreath when he wrote his column in the Morning Star

After wreaths were laid at the graves of those who died on that day and on the graves of others killed by Mossad agents in Paris in 1991, we moved to the poignant statue in the main avenue of the coastal town of Ben Arous, which was festooned with Palestinian and Tunisian flags.

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/a-98de- ... e-united-1

Someone in the mainstream press should ask him to comment on this.

It will do wonders for his stance on anti-Semitism.

surrey_commuter

is this any worse than his support for the IRA
http://uk.businessinsider.com/jeremy-co ... ra-2015-10

I also have a vague memory of him supporting terrorists in Latin America and opposing every bit of terror legislation.

This is all a bit like Trump. Each new bit of info (or rehashed old info) either confirms peoples belief that he is an odious carnt of the highest order or just gets shrugged off as irrelevant by his supporters

Stevo_666

Surrey Commuter wrote:

is this any worse than his support for the IRA
http://uk.businessinsider.com/jeremy-co ... ra-2015-10

I also have a vague memory of him supporting terrorists in Latin America and opposing every bit of terror legislation.

This is all a bit like Trump. Each new bit of info (or rehashed old info) either confirms peoples belief that he is an odious carnt of the highest order or just gets shrugged off as irrelevant by his supporters

Not really, no. But this latest one is news as was previously unreported in the mainstream media.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

is this any worse than his support for the IRA
http://uk.businessinsider.com/jeremy-co ... ra-2015-10

I also have a vague memory of him supporting terrorists in Latin America and opposing every bit of terror legislation.

This is all a bit like Trump. Each new bit of info (or rehashed old info) either confirms peoples belief that he is an odious carnt of the highest order or just gets shrugged off as irrelevant by his supporters

Not really, no. But this latest one is news as was previously unreported in the mainstream media.

Well, sort of. He's hardly hidden his pro-Palestinian views. Agree that people on either side hear/see what they want and ignore what doesn't fit with their view.

bompington

On a totally different Labour party point (applies to Tories and others too, but Labour is worse):

- out of the 258 Labour MPs, how many have a degree in Engineering?

surrey_commuter

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

is this any worse than his support for the IRA
http://uk.businessinsider.com/jeremy-co ... ra-2015-10

I also have a vague memory of him supporting terrorists in Latin America and opposing every bit of terror legislation.

This is all a bit like Trump. Each new bit of info (or rehashed old info) either confirms peoples belief that he is an odious carnt of the highest order or just gets shrugged off as irrelevant by his supporters

Not really, no. But this latest one is news as was previously unreported in the mainstream media.

Well, sort of. He's hardly hidden his pro-Palestinian views. Agree that people on either side hear/see what they want and ignore what doesn't fit with their view.

It really feels like I already knew this and my opinion of him is no lower

rjsterry

bompington wrote:

On a totally different Labour party point (applies to Tories and others too, but Labour is worse):

- out of the 258 Labour MPs, how many have a degree in Engineering?

Possibly engineering graduates are more in demand from in Industry.

Stevo_666

bompington wrote:

On a totally different Labour party point (applies to Tories and others too, but Labour is worse):

- out of the 258 Labour MPs, how many have a degree in Engineering?

None?

Stevo_666

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

is this any worse than his support for the IRA
http://uk.businessinsider.com/jeremy-co ... ra-2015-10

I also have a vague memory of him supporting terrorists in Latin America and opposing every bit of terror legislation.

This is all a bit like Trump. Each new bit of info (or rehashed old info) either confirms peoples belief that he is an odious carnt of the highest order or just gets shrugged off as irrelevant by his supporters

Not really, no. But this latest one is news as was previously unreported in the mainstream media.

Well, sort of. He's hardly hidden his pro-Palestinian views. Agree that people on either side hear/see what they want and ignore what doesn't fit with their view.

It really feels like I already knew this and my opinion of him is no lower

OK, but it's not your opinion that needs to be swayed.

Stevo_666

Maybe we need a poll on this?
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/jeremy-corbyn-is-either-deeply-sinister-or-a-total-idiot/amp/

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

is this any worse than his support for the IRA
http://uk.businessinsider.com/jeremy-co ... ra-2015-10

I also have a vague memory of him supporting terrorists in Latin America and opposing every bit of terror legislation.

This is all a bit like Trump. Each new bit of info (or rehashed old info) either confirms peoples belief that he is an odious carnt of the highest order or just gets shrugged off as irrelevant by his supporters

Not really, no. But this latest one is news as was previously unreported in the mainstream media.

Well, sort of. He's hardly hidden his pro-Palestinian views. Agree that people on either side hear/see what they want and ignore what doesn't fit with their view.

It really feels like I already knew this and my opinion of him is no lower

OK, but it's not your opinion that needs to be swayed.

Just read that Robert Halfon and Zac Goldsmith want Lord Sheikh thrown out of the Conservative party for attending the same Tunis conference as Corbyn (but not laying any wreaths).Are they trolling their own party?

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

Maybe we need a poll on this?
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/jeremy-corbyn-is-either-deeply-sinister-or-a-total-idiot/amp/

Dunno, but clearly not cut out for anything other than being an opposition backbencher, which is effectively what he was even during the Blair Brown years.

TheBigBean

Labour complains to the regulator.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... tery-visit

Stevo_666

TheBigBean wrote:

Labour complains to the regulator.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... tery-visit

Beats giving an honest account of the events I guess.

ballysmate

Leila Khaled, another friend of Jezza.
Perhaps he has developed amnesia again about other events he atteded.

https://order-order.com/2017/05/30/corb ... -hijacker/

tailwindhome

DUP - "Hold my blackcurrant cordial"

http://www.irishnews.com/news/northerni ... y-1408991/

surrey_commuter

TailWindHome wrote:

DUP - "Hold my blackcurrant cordial"

http://www.irishnews.com/news/northerni ... y-1408991/

I thought Jezza was an IRA man?

rjsterry

Surrey Commuter wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

DUP - "Hold my blackcurrant cordial"

http://www.irishnews.com/news/northerni ... y-1408991/

I thought Jezza was an IRA man?

I think the point is that the DUP are propping up the very party that is attacking Corbyn for his cozying up to terrorists.