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kajjal

Stevo 666 wrote:

The Labour anti-semitism row just won't go away - becuase they haven't solved it. Tom Waton's view below is quite realistic:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45073081
Apart from the bit where he says that "his party may "disappear into a vortex of eternal shame" and render itself unfit to lead if it does not tackle anti-Semitism." Does he honestly think they haven't already achieved that?

How would you solve it ?

Stevo_666

Kajjal wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

The Labour anti-semitism row just won't go away - becuase they haven't solved it. Tom Waton's view below is quite realistic:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45073081
Apart from the bit where he says that "his party may "disappear into a vortex of eternal shame" and render itself unfit to lead if it does not tackle anti-Semitism." Does he honestly think they haven't already achieved that?

How would you solve it ?

I don't want to solve Labour's problems so I haven't given it any thought.

morstar

Sad thing is, both major parties have clearly demonstrated they are not fit to govern. And yet, all this accomplishes is further mistrust in both parties and politics in general. Yet both clusterf*cks continue to benefit from an electoral system that favours the status quo.

rjsterry

morstar wrote:

Sad thing is, both major parties have clearly demonstrated they are not fit to govern. And yet, all this accomplishes is further mistrust in both parties and politics in general. Yet both clusterf*cks continue to benefit from an electoral system that favours the status quo.

As if not to be outdone, the Conservative Party continue try to pretend they don't have a problem with Islamophobia.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ia-says-mp

surrey_commuter

To revisit an old topic it is interesting to see that stamp duty receipts on property have declined since penal rates were introduced.

Stevo_666

Surrey Commuter wrote:

To revisit an old topic it is interesting to see that stamp duty receipts on property have declined since penal rates were introduced.

No surprise there and self defeating.

Those new rates have simply slowed a large section of the market down considerably - the drop in stamp duty revenues are evidence enough that the rates are too high.

morstar

rjsterry wrote:

morstar wrote:

Sad thing is, both major parties have clearly demonstrated they are not fit to govern. And yet, all this accomplishes is further mistrust in both parties and politics in general. Yet both clusterf*cks continue to benefit from an electoral system that favours the status quo.

As if not to be outdone, the Conservative Party continue try to pretend they don't have a problem with Islamophobia.

Funny to think that around 10 years ago, I am sure politics was considered very middle of the road with few extreme views to be heard from the big two parties.
Now we have hard left and hard right dominating the headlines with ever more absurd nonsense.

Stevo_666

morstar wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

morstar wrote:

Sad thing is, both major parties have clearly demonstrated they are not fit to govern. And yet, all this accomplishes is further mistrust in both parties and politics in general. Yet both clusterf*cks continue to benefit from an electoral system that favours the status quo.

As if not to be outdone, the Conservative Party continue try to pretend they don't have a problem with Islamophobia.

Funny to think that around 10 years ago, I am sure politics was considered very middle of the road with few extreme views to be heard from the big two parties.
Now we have hard left and hard right dominating the headlines with ever more absurd nonsense.

Relevant word in bold. More extreme views tend to get more air time by their very nature.

rick_chasey

It’s almost like Bojo is worried he’s missing out on airtime so he’s tunnelling his own islamophobia story, in case Labour were hogging all the airtime with their anti-semitism.

kajjal

morstar wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

morstar wrote:

Sad thing is, both major parties have clearly demonstrated they are not fit to govern. And yet, all this accomplishes is further mistrust in both parties and politics in general. Yet both clusterf*cks continue to benefit from an electoral system that favours the status quo.

As if not to be outdone, the Conservative Party continue try to pretend they don't have a problem with Islamophobia.

Funny to think that around 10 years ago, I am sure politics was considered very middle of the road with few extreme views to be heard from the big two parties.
Now we have hard left and hard right dominating the headlines with ever more absurd nonsense.

It’s the politics of polarised extremes. Before brexit for example there were a variety of views on various parts of the EU. Now due to the referendum you are either a remainer or a leaver, which is for most nonsense if they think about it.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

morstar wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

morstar wrote:

Sad thing is, both major parties have clearly demonstrated they are not fit to govern. And yet, all this accomplishes is further mistrust in both parties and politics in general. Yet both clusterf*cks continue to benefit from an electoral system that favours the status quo.

As if not to be outdone, the Conservative Party continue try to pretend they don't have a problem with Islamophobia.

Funny to think that around 10 years ago, I am sure politics was considered very middle of the road with few extreme views to be heard from the big two parties.
Now we have hard left and hard right dominating the headlines with ever more absurd nonsense.

Relevant word in bold. More extreme views tend to get more air time by their very nature.

Bit worrying that this is how Johnson is pitching himself to the party membership. Mind you it is of a piece with the party's last tilt at London Mayor.

Stevo_666

Kajjal wrote:

morstar wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

morstar wrote:

Sad thing is, both major parties have clearly demonstrated they are not fit to govern. And yet, all this accomplishes is further mistrust in both parties and politics in general. Yet both clusterf*cks continue to benefit from an electoral system that favours the status quo.

As if not to be outdone, the Conservative Party continue try to pretend they don't have a problem with Islamophobia.

Funny to think that around 10 years ago, I am sure politics was considered very middle of the road with few extreme views to be heard from the big two parties.
Now we have hard left and hard right dominating the headlines with ever more absurd nonsense.

It’s the politics of polarised extremes. Before brexit for example there were a variety of views on various parts of the EU. Now due to the referendum you are either a remainer or a leaver, which is for most nonsense if they think about it.

There are still a variety of views IMO.

In the Brexit thread this is also the case. It's just that you do get lumped into one of the remainer or brexiteer 'buckets' these days.

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Bit worrying that this is how Johnson is pitching himself to the party membership. Mind you it is of a piece with the party's last tilt at London Mayor.

I reckon Johnson has shot his bolt.

rolf_f

Stevo 666 wrote:

morstar wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

morstar wrote:

Sad thing is, both major parties have clearly demonstrated they are not fit to govern. And yet, all this accomplishes is further mistrust in both parties and politics in general. Yet both clusterf*cks continue to benefit from an electoral system that favours the status quo.

As if not to be outdone, the Conservative Party continue try to pretend they don't have a problem with Islamophobia.

Funny to think that around 10 years ago, I am sure politics was considered very middle of the road with few extreme views to be heard from the big two parties.
Now we have hard left and hard right dominating the headlines with ever more absurd nonsense.

Relevant word in bold. More extreme views tend to get more air time by their very nature.

Yes, but Morstars point is that in the past there were few extreme views to be heard from the big parties (ie the source of the headlines). The issue is whether there is more focus on extremism in the reporting of politics or if it is now genuinely more extreme. Personally I would say the latter - simply because, as someone middle of the road politically, I am now no longer represented at all by either of the two main parties.

In the long run maybe it makes little difference - one will lead to the other anyway.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Bit worrying that this is how Johnson is pitching himself to the party membership. Mind you it is of a piece with the party's last tilt at London Mayor.

I reckon Johnson has shot his bolt.

I certainly hope so.

surrey_commuter

Rolf F wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

morstar wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

morstar wrote:

Sad thing is, both major parties have clearly demonstrated they are not fit to govern. And yet, all this accomplishes is further mistrust in both parties and politics in general. Yet both clusterf*cks continue to benefit from an electoral system that favours the status quo.

As if not to be outdone, the Conservative Party continue try to pretend they don't have a problem with Islamophobia.

Funny to think that around 10 years ago, I am sure politics was considered very middle of the road with few extreme views to be heard from the big two parties.
Now we have hard left and hard right dominating the headlines with ever more absurd nonsense.

Relevant word in bold. More extreme views tend to get more air time by their very nature.

Yes, but Morstars point is that in the past there were few extreme views to be heard from the big parties (ie the source of the headlines). The issue is whether there is more focus on extremism in the reporting of politics or if it is now genuinely more extreme. Personally I would say the latter - simply because, as someone middle of the road politically, I am now no longer represented at all by either of the two main parties.

In the long run maybe it makes little difference - one will lead to the other anyway.

previously to win elections they were chasing the middle ground and there was enough party discipline to sideline the nutters and those on the fringes. Now the two main parties are locked in mortal internal combat for control of their own organisations and need to appeal to a membership/electorate that is dominated by fringe nutters

rolf_f

Surrey Commuter wrote:

previously to win elections they were chasing the middle ground and there was enough party discipline to sideline the nutters and those on the fringes. Now the two main parties are locked in mortal internal combat for control of their own organisations and need to appeal to a membership/electorate that is dominated by fringe nutters

Ultimately it is a shift from the vaguely positive to the extremely negative that (for me) is the distinction between extremist politics and middle of the road. Extremism just seems to be about blindly blaming someone else for all that is wrong and, in the unlikely event that Brexit does happen, I wonder (and worry) who will be blamed for our future woes - because we can't really blame Europe for them. If we end up poorer outside of Europe than within (as we will) then obviously that will show that for all the writing on the side of buses, Europe did make us wealthier. So who will become the target for all the hatred about how crap everything is in future when Europe is out of the frame?

rjsterry

What on earth makes you think people won't blame Europe for "punishing" us for leaving, regardless of what deal is made? These people define themselves by being against something and nursing a grievance. Without someone to blame who are they?

rolf_f

rjsterry wrote:

What on earth makes you think people won't blame Europe for "punishing" us for leaving, regardless of what deal is made? These people define themselves by being against something and nursing a grievance. Without someone to blame who are they?

Well logic obviously! Surely the whole point is that we don't "need" Europe; how can they punish us in any meaningful way? Without being under the shackles of Europe we will be able to make all the trade deals we like (the first of which will be selling a bus); whatever Europe does is an irrelevance.

rjsterry

Rolf F wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

What on earth makes you think people won't blame Europe for "punishing" us for leaving, regardless of what deal is made? These people define themselves by being against something and nursing a grievance. Without someone to blame who are they?

Well logic obviously! Surely the whole point is that we don't "need" Europe; how can they punish us in any meaningful way? Without being under the shackles of Europe we will be able to make all the trade deals we like (the first of which will be selling a bus); whatever Europe does is an irrelevance.

I fear hopes of a sudden outbreak of logic are unfounded. On the left and right these are people who have been railing against their perceived enemy for decades. I'm not sure they could stop if they wanted to.

Stevo_666

Rolf F wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

morstar wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

morstar wrote:

Sad thing is, both major parties have clearly demonstrated they are not fit to govern. And yet, all this accomplishes is further mistrust in both parties and politics in general. Yet both clusterf*cks continue to benefit from an electoral system that favours the status quo.

As if not to be outdone, the Conservative Party continue try to pretend they don't have a problem with Islamophobia.

Funny to think that around 10 years ago, I am sure politics was considered very middle of the road with few extreme views to be heard from the big two parties.
Now we have hard left and hard right dominating the headlines with ever more absurd nonsense.

Relevant word in bold. More extreme views tend to get more air time by their very nature.

Yes, but Morstars point is that in the past there were few extreme views to be heard from the big parties (ie the source of the headlines). The issue is whether there is more focus on extremism in the reporting of politics or if it is now genuinely more extreme. Personally I would say the latter - simply because, as someone middle of the road politically, I am now no longer represented at all by either of the two main parties.

In the long run maybe it makes little difference - one will lead to the other anyway.

We'll have to disagree there. As far as I can see those views were always there, they either didn't get the air time or were smart enough to keep their mouth shut. For example, it's unlikely that hoardes of mainstream Labour supporters woke up around the time of Corbyns election as Labour leader and suddenly decided to become loony lefties.

Stevo_666

Rolf F wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

What on earth makes you think people won't blame Europe for "punishing" us for leaving, regardless of what deal is made? These people define themselves by being against something and nursing a grievance. Without someone to blame who are they?

Well logic obviously! Surely the whole point is that we don't "need" Europe; how can they punish us in any meaningful way? Without being under the shackles of Europe we will be able to make all the trade deals we like (the first of which will be selling a bus); whatever Europe does is an irrelevance.

I think there's a separate thread where that can be debated, not sure if you're seen it?

rolf_f

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

morstar wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

morstar wrote:

Sad thing is, both major parties have clearly demonstrated they are not fit to govern. And yet, all this accomplishes is further mistrust in both parties and politics in general. Yet both clusterf*cks continue to benefit from an electoral system that favours the status quo.

As if not to be outdone, the Conservative Party continue try to pretend they don't have a problem with Islamophobia.

Funny to think that around 10 years ago, I am sure politics was considered very middle of the road with few extreme views to be heard from the big two parties.
Now we have hard left and hard right dominating the headlines with ever more absurd nonsense.

Relevant word in bold. More extreme views tend to get more air time by their very nature.

Yes, but Morstars point is that in the past there were few extreme views to be heard from the big parties (ie the source of the headlines). The issue is whether there is more focus on extremism in the reporting of politics or if it is now genuinely more extreme. Personally I would say the latter - simply because, as someone middle of the road politically, I am now no longer represented at all by either of the two main parties.

In the long run maybe it makes little difference - one will lead to the other anyway.

We'll have to disagree there. As far as I can see those views were always there, they either didn't get the air time or were smart enough to keep their mouth shut. For example, it's unlikely that hoardes of mainstream Labour supporters woke up around the time of Corbyns election as Labour leader and suddenly decided to become loony lefties.

You don't think that the mainstreaming of extremism tends to generate more extreme extremism? It's pretty much the sum total of how Trump works ie normalising offensive behaviour. It's just Trumps bad luck that Me Too came along or pussy grabbing would be a socially acceptable norm by now.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

morstar wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

morstar wrote:

Sad thing is, both major parties have clearly demonstrated they are not fit to govern. And yet, all this accomplishes is further mistrust in both parties and politics in general. Yet both clusterf*cks continue to benefit from an electoral system that favours the status quo.

As if not to be outdone, the Conservative Party continue try to pretend they don't have a problem with Islamophobia.

Funny to think that around 10 years ago, I am sure politics was considered very middle of the road with few extreme views to be heard from the big two parties.
Now we have hard left and hard right dominating the headlines with ever more absurd nonsense.

Relevant word in bold. More extreme views tend to get more air time by their very nature.

Yes, but Morstars point is that in the past there were few extreme views to be heard from the big parties (ie the source of the headlines). The issue is whether there is more focus on extremism in the reporting of politics or if it is now genuinely more extreme. Personally I would say the latter - simply because, as someone middle of the road politically, I am now no longer represented at all by either of the two main parties.

In the long run maybe it makes little difference - one will lead to the other anyway.

We'll have to disagree there. As far as I can see those views were always there, they either didn't get the air time or were smart enough to keep their mouth shut. For example, it's unlikely that hoardes of mainstream Labour supporters woke up around the time of Corbyns election as Labour leader and suddenly decided to become loony lefties.

I tend to agree. Labour had a showdown with its leftwingers before (from which the Tories benefitted), and likewise, Major had a showdown with the Eurosceptics, from which Blair benefitted. Plus ça change. I think the fringes are better organised now, more media savvy and making use of social media to magnify their impact.

FocusZing

Everybody's forgotten the financial crisis now, it's time for New Labour V2. (extra new and improved).

robert88

New New Labour washes whiter? No, maybe not, UKIP can have that one.

kajjal

FocusZing wrote:

Everybody's forgotten the financial crisis now, it's time for New Labour V2. (extra new and improved).

New labour in its current forum is a political disaster waiting to happen. If they can’t even beat Corbyn in a leadership contest with endless smear campaigns, staged coups/ resignations, the full support of the media, legal challenges and spending millions how do they expect to beat the conservatives ?

We have new labour to thank for the surge in UKIP as they left traditional labour voters behind, the rise of the snp and many traditional labours voters just stopped voting.

Stevo_666

Robert88 wrote:

New New Labour washes whiter? No, maybe not, UKIP can have that one.

It's probably more accurate to call them New Old Labour.

Stevo_666

Rolf F wrote:

You don't think that the mainstreaming of extremism tends to generate more extreme extremism?

To be honest I had not thought about that angle. Not sure.

Stevo_666

FocusZing wrote:

Everybody's forgotten the financial crisis now, it's time for New Labour V2. (extra new and improved).

If we want another one, we know who to vote for.