Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

The paranoid comparison of Corbyn and McDonnell with Mao, Pol Pot, Ceaucescu and Stalin is as risible as comparing Michael Howard or Nigel Lawson with Franco or Pinochet. This is just standard issue reds-under-the-bed rightiebollox.

Tongue in cheek as mentioned. But is the underlying theme that capitalism creates more wealth than socialism something you disagree with?

Stevo_666

ExCyclist wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

ExCyclist wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Interesting letter. Take note, lefties
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/06/letter-to-a-young-corbynista/

Written by a 6th form Economics student.

Unlikely...

Some decent home truths in there. Which bits can you show to be factually incorrect?

I really do not think it is intended as a serious article.

Of course it is tongue in cheek. But as mentioned there are some decent home truths in there.

It certainly got a reaction from a few lefties. One offers no counter evidence and the other tries to steer it back onto his hate the tories/BREXIT hobby horse. Two cracking examples of leftiebollox

Not really - I just leave you to spout your spurious crap and have a laugh at your posts. Thanks for keeping me entertained though. X

Not sure why you're blowing a kiss at me. Especially when you've failed to address any of the points again.

ExCyclist

Stevo 666 wrote:

ExCyclist wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

ExCyclist wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Interesting letter. Take note, lefties
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/06/letter-to-a-young-corbynista/

Written by a 6th form Economics student.

Unlikely...

Some decent home truths in there. Which bits can you show to be factually incorrect?

I really do not think it is intended as a serious article.

Of course it is tongue in cheek. But as mentioned there are some decent home truths in there.

It certainly got a reaction from a few lefties. One offers no counter evidence and the other tries to steer it back onto his hate the tories/BREXIT hobby horse. Two cracking examples of leftiebollox

Not really - I just leave you to spout your spurious crap and have a laugh at your posts. Thanks for keeping me entertained though. X

Not sure why you're blowing a kiss at me. Especially when you've failed to address any of the points again.

Awww I'm glad to see you're that bothered. You're my puppet on a string, you lad. X

Stevo_666

ExCyclist wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

ExCyclist wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

ExCyclist wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Interesting letter. Take note, lefties
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/06/letter-to-a-young-corbynista/

Written by a 6th form Economics student.

Unlikely...

Some decent home truths in there. Which bits can you show to be factually incorrect?

I really do not think it is intended as a serious article.

Of course it is tongue in cheek. But as mentioned there are some decent home truths in there.

It certainly got a reaction from a few lefties. One offers no counter evidence and the other tries to steer it back onto his hate the tories/BREXIT hobby horse. Two cracking examples of leftiebollox

Not really - I just leave you to spout your spurious crap and have a laugh at your posts. Thanks for keeping me entertained though. X

Not sure why you're blowing a kiss at me. Especially when you've failed to address any of the points again.

Awww I'm glad to see you're that bothered. You're my puppet on a string, you lad. X

If the link didnt bother you why did you respond?

Three fails now. I can see why you're a leftie

bompington

Lookyhere wrote:

Its a ridiculous article and not worthy of any counter argument

Not good enough. Part of the problem we have in politics now is the massive superiority complex the left has developed to the extent that it feels itself to be above argument, or for that matter democracy.

rick_chasey

bompington wrote:

Lookyhere wrote:

Its a ridiculous article and not worthy of any counter argument

Not good enough. Part of the problem we have in politics now is the massive superiority complex the left has developed to the extent that it feels itself to be above argument, or for that matter democracy.

Because that statement isn't in itself, superior, of course.

rick_chasey

A Tory MP evaluating the Tory election performance put it quite well with regard to how badly they did with young voters.

"What interest do they have in capitalism if they have very little chance of owning any capital?"

rick_chasey

The advantage of the success of far left govts elsewhere in the world during the middle of the 20th century (ostensibly anyway) was to force capitalists into a social contract with the poorest and most left wing; it made sure the bountiful gains of capitalism were put to use across society.

It's no coincidence we see the wealth gap shrink during this period.

It abruptly stops when capitalists claim victory and even "the end of history".

Now the inequality keeps growing, so what is in it for those at the bottom end to keep supporting it??

rick_chasey

What the right ought to be doing with the young, rather than just condescend them with "OMG you don't understand how bad socialism is, innit. Capitalism is way better obvs", is give them a stake in the capitalist model.

Sneery comparisons of Corbyn to Stalin don't really solve that problem.

Meanwhile, the right needs to own up to the challenge of prejudice within their own ranks. Too many of the problems that unfettered capitalism causes are not dealt with effectively by the right, and instead they take populist and prejudiced positions in a futile attempt to solve them.

It's creating its own rod for the more unsavoury prejudiced people to gain traction. The problem for the right, is that those prejudiced people typically gravitate towards the right end of the spectrum.

The dialogue on what shape capitalism people want is being lost, in populist grabs. The right blames immigrants for their own failure to share the wealth of capitalism effectively, and the left castigate them for hating on minorities, but don't offer a particularly constructive alternative to the current model.

In fairness to the left, rightist policies have been in ascendancy since the '80s, and the best stab at a crude attempt at wealth sharing by Labour was undone by their own 'unfettered capitalist' approach to regulation of financial markets, and so, if we take a broader long 20th Century view of it, labour was still relatively rightist, just with an attempt at sharing the wealth.

I think when it comes to social issues around minorities, the right has a lot of work to do.

When it comes to economic issues, both sides have a lot of work to do.

The burden difference is the result of he right has had 30 years in ascendancy to do something about it.

tangled_metal

I thought Brexit was voted for most strongly in labour areas. Unless I'm mistaken labour voters tend to be left of centre's. So if Brexit is about immigration and prejudice then doesn't that mean labour supporting Lefties are also prejudiced? Also IIRC labour was supportive of Brexit once the results were in. That's Corbyn's labour voting with the prejudiced right wing for Brexit.

I was always under the impression that the further from the center of politics the more prejudiced you get. That's left and right. I think posts on this thread tend to support that theory.

rick_chasey

Given the fluidity of votes between UKIP and Labour in those seats suggests their voting labour is as much about being anti Tory, for whatever reason, rather than where they sit on the ideological spectrum.

But then I'm of the view that FPTP doesn't produce representative govts or votes.

Lookyhere

bompington wrote:

Lookyhere wrote:

Its a ridiculous article and not worthy of any counter argument

Not good enough. Part of the problem we have in politics now is the massive superiority complex the left has developed to the extent that it feels itself to be above argument, or for that matter democracy.

You cant argue with a sick mind, that article IS ridiculous and offers nothing that Steve0 hasnt spouted on about before.

Capitalism GOOD, Socialism BAD, that is all steve0 ever posts, ignoring that capitalism bought us Grenfell, no social housing and a private rent sector that is subsidised by the tax payer, there is good and bad on both sides, Steve0 cannot recognise this at all.

From what i ve seen and heard of Labour, they are trying a more balanced view, their musings on Brexit, as they say no one voted to become poorer (Coopster aside) but still accepting the vote, ideas on education, directors pay, worker representation - hardly communism is it? policies that are common across europe.

tangled_metal

Rick Chasey wrote:

Given the fluidity of votes between UKIP and Labour in those seats suggests their voting labour is as much about being anti Tory, for whatever reason, rather than where they sit on the ideological spectrum.

But then I'm of the view that FPTP doesn't produce representative govts or votes.

So labour votes are votes for anyone but Tories? You know what, tory votes are really votes for anyone but labour!

rick_chasey

Tangled Metal wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Given the fluidity of votes between UKIP and Labour in those seats suggests their voting labour is as much about being anti Tory, for whatever reason, rather than where they sit on the ideological spectrum.

But then I'm of the view that FPTP doesn't produce representative govts or votes.

So labour votes are votes for anyone but Tories? You know what, tory votes are really votes for anyone but labour!

Sure.

I do think generally the polarisation of the spectrum has been, in part, because neither side in what is a 2 sided conversation has had the talent or ambition to really address the challenges I pose above.

Capitalism is tolerated by the poor if they feel they have enough opportunity to make money and own a bit of capital.

If it's not, you get anti-capitalists, and get enough of them and you end up with some approximation of marxism, which, as most people were would say, is not an ideal outcome.

So capitalist politicians need to work harder than they are now to keep people happy. Blaming immigrants or the EU for failing to address the ills of capitalism properly won't solve anything, and will instead cause more problems.

ExCyclist

Stevo 666 wrote:

ExCyclist wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

ExCyclist wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

ExCyclist wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Interesting letter. Take note, lefties
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/06/letter-to-a-young-corbynista/

Written by a 6th form Economics student.

Unlikely...

Some decent home truths in there. Which bits can you show to be factually incorrect?

I really do not think it is intended as a serious article.

Of course it is tongue in cheek. But as mentioned there are some decent home truths in there.

It certainly got a reaction from a few lefties. One offers no counter evidence and the other tries to steer it back onto his hate the tories/BREXIT hobby horse. Two cracking examples of leftiebollox

Not really - I just leave you to spout your spurious crap and have a laugh at your posts. Thanks for keeping me entertained though. X

Not sure why you're blowing a kiss at me. Especially when you've failed to address any of the points again.

Awww I'm glad to see you're that bothered. You're my puppet on a string, you lad. X

If the link didnt bother you why did you respond?

Three fails now. I can see why you're a leftie

Nothing bothers me - especially an internet forum. Thanks for the laughs though, son. You're a treat. X

orraloon

ExC, you do realise TaxDodgerBoy666 is a wind up merchant, yes?

ExCyclist

orraloon wrote:

ExC, you do realise TaxDodgerBoy666 is a wind up merchant, yes?

Completely. I'm amazed that someone would spend the amount of time he/she/troll does on the subject. It is rather funny though - hence I like to mess about and keep the troll coming back when I'm not on duty (which I'm not tonight).

I'll leave the multi personality moron to it though - it's all they have in their lives.

Stevo_666

ExCyclist wrote:

orraloon wrote:

ExC, you do realise TaxDodgerBoy666 is a wind up merchant, yes?

Completely. I'm amazed that someone would spend the amount of time he/she/troll does on the subject. It is rather funny though - hence I like to mess about and keep the troll coming back when I'm not on duty (which I'm not tonight).

I'll leave the multi personality moron to it though - it's all they have in their lives.

You still can't argue a case to save your life, as demonstrated above

4 fails now, you're not getting any more chances.

orraloon

C'mon toryboy666, shurely you can do better than that. Expected much better. Sad.

Stevo_666

orraloon wrote:

C'mon toryboy666, shurely you can do better than that. Expected much better. Sad.

Says the man who was also incapable of arguing the point, or felt it was beneath you. It appears that lefties have something in common

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

orraloon wrote:

C'mon toryboy666, shurely you can do better than that. Expected much better. Sad.

Says the man who was also incapable of arguing the point, or felt it was beneath you. It appears that lefties have something in common

A bit rich coming from someone who just reposted a longwinded piece that boils down to "anything leftwing is bad because, y'know, communist dictatorships".
It's not as if you aren't spoilt for choice for real things to criticise in Corbyn's Labour - the witch hunts for Blairites; the attempts to sideline the PLP; the incoherent approach to Brexit. Still I suppose it deflects attention from the vacuum on the other side of the House.

surrey_commuter

And nobody noticed that he effectively seized control of the NEC

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

orraloon wrote:

C'mon toryboy666, shurely you can do better than that. Expected much better. Sad.

Says the man who was also incapable of arguing the point, or felt it was beneath you. It appears that lefties have something in common

A bit rich coming from someone who just reposted a longwinded piece that boils down to "anything leftwing is bad because, y'know, communist dictatorships".
It's not as if you aren't spoilt for choice for real things to criticise in Corbyn's Labour - the witch hunts for Blairites; the attempts to sideline the PLP; the incoherent approach to Brexit. Still I suppose it deflects attention from the vacuum on the other side of the House.

That's not exactly the point but anyway.

I'll get on to those others in due course. It's still the holiday season in the news.

Stevo_666

Surrey Commuter wrote:

And nobody noticed that he effectively seized control of the NEC

Good point, didn't see anything on it but wasn't that something that was a known part of the far left plan to sieze control of the levers of power within New Old Labour?

rick_chasey

As per my posts above; what effective arguments do the Tories have to get the young to buy into them?

This is quite embarassing to the rational Tory



4% on housing particularly made me chuckle/should worry Tories.

surrey_commuter

I won't quote Rick's chart.

But what is to stop the Tories just making a load old sh1te up promising young people anything they might want?

This is a serious question as it worked for Brexit/Trump and there really does not seem to be any downside. It worked for Corbyn on the youth vote but did not get in a position to not deliver on his promises.

BelgianBeerGeek

Surrey Commuter wrote:

I won't quote Rick's chart.

But what is to stop the Tories just making a load old sh1te up promising young people anything they might want?

This is a serious question as it worked for Brexit/Trump and there really does not seem to be any downside. It worked for Corbyn on the youth vote but did not get in a position to not deliver on his promises.

No-one will have to make any promises/load of sh1te for 5 years anyway, so who cares what a bunch of kids think now.

surrey_commuter

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

I won't quote Rick's chart.

But what is to stop the Tories just making a load old sh1te up promising young people anything they might want?

This is a serious question as it worked for Brexit/Trump and there really does not seem to be any downside. It worked for Corbyn on the youth vote but did not get in a position to not deliver on his promises.

No-one will have to make any promises/load of sh1te for 5 years anyway, so who cares what a bunch of kids think now.

just promise them free education and a free house and a job building it. Throw in a taxpayer funded Gap Year and they will win a crushing majority.

tangled_metal

In 5 years time most 18-24 year olds will be out of that demographic. Whether it will be the same with their replacements will depend on what Lefties lala land policies Corbyn's got to entice them.

BTW turnout was still lowest in this demographic. Turnout increases with age group as does the tory vote. Whilst significant demographic this election is probably the first that the youth vote has increased and the cynic in me wonders when it'll collapse. It willi reckon. Hey Stevo, why don't you offer a bet on that. You're a betting man, I'm not, so would you bet on the youth vote holding out?

BelgianBeerGeek

If current population trends continue, there will be more old gits than ever in 2022. If Stevo's theory holds true, and the elderly are natural Tories, Labour are screwed. Maybe forever.