Join the Labour Party and save your country!

mr_goo

bompington wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Middle Class - If one loses their job, in most instances they will have a severance and enough in savings to survive 12-18 months with a few cut backs. By which time they will drop into another well paid job.

How we laughed at Meursault when he suggested that we were (pretty much) all working class.
But, comparing Goo's helpful insights here with my experience of redundancy a couple of years ago, it appears that I'm a long way from middle class. FWIW, my redundancy pay was about 4 months salary (after 17 years in the job), and savings? You've got to be joking.

My 'helpful insight' is merely my opinion. I was made redundant from my last job after being their for 6 years. I walked out with an 'enhanced package' that would have tied me over for 5 months. Fortunately I was able to find something straight away. But if I hadn't I knew full well that I was going to get into financial trouble. And I sincerely believe that for the average Joe and Joanna this will always be the case. BTW I do not believe in any class systems, however we just cannot seem to shake it off.

Interesting article on BBC South last night. A managing director of a Basingstoke firm was being interviewed, after he discovered that one of his employees was sleeping rough in a disused pill box besides the railway line. It shocked him something rotten. He is currently paying for him to stay in a hotel whilst they sort out accommodation for him. Pretty awful state of affairs in this country when even employed people have to sleep rough.

rjsterry

Surrey Commuter wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

But this is a statutory requirement, so it has to be paid for. If the vote goes against, it will be everything else that gets cut.

This is a minefield as very few people will have elderly relatives in the county so will be paying for something they will never benefit from. Corbyn wants it paid centrally which means the "rich" will pay. Problem is that anybody with more than £30k is already resentful that they are self funding.

It does make you wonder: if Surrey CC - which is hardly the most deprived local authority - is that short, how on earth locally funded care is going to be remotely consistent across the country? A quick look at this table https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live-tables-on-local-government-finance#receipts-of-council-taxes-and-national-non-domestic-rates shows wildly varying CT receipts by authority. Obviously the population of LAs varies, but there would seem to be a compelling argument for some central funding to even things out per head.

rick_chasey

Those poor snowflakes who the older generation so despise will be the ones who will be paying for care for the generation who despises them so much.

Ah, the irony of it all.

rick_chasey

On a more topical comment for the thread:

If we take that the Tories have willingly pulled the UK out of the single market, despite having the option not to, and Labour being openly hostile to any firm that is profitable, who is the pro-business party?

Jez mon

The Lib Dems?

surrey_commuter

The problem is that anybody with over £23k is self funding meaning that they or their beneficiaries are paying out £1k a week. They are now going to be asked to pay a shed load more to pay for everybody else. The self-funding can got kicked down the road from 2016 to 2020 but politically I feel they will have to make this one combined decision.

tangled_metal

Middle class coping for 12 months, enhanced redundancy? Hah! Got the maximum state redundancy package when my SME cocked up its prepack arrangement. Bank foreclosed and we got state redundancy. I had 13 years which meant the maximum of 12 years that got counted. I got a week's pay for each year up to 12 years. That was capped at up to £280 per full year measured on a certain date which fortunately for me i was 1 year and 1 day over for the maximum.

So i got 3 months which puts me in working class. Oh but i forgot i only got those months payout a month after my redundancy. Actually with being monthly paid it was over a month between my last pay packet and the redundancy payout. One more thing, i got my jobseekers allowance taken out of that figure too. Of course that worked out at 1 months JSA but due to some mess up and loophole i actually only got 2 weeks jsa over that month.

At least i walked into a job a month after redundancy so i coped. Then 2months or more after that i got my notice period paid which was nice but after the point i needed it.

My point is class isn't quantifiable. You can be working class to mrgoo's standard, my standard puts me at middle class but with the conditions close to working class and Marxist thought as applied by mersault has almost everyone as working class. Truth is a lot of people can cross over between classes depending on your method of determination of class.

For example, people who meet me assume I'm middle class. I have a good middle class education, i talk a good middle class talk and i view things in a middle class way. Everyone i meet for the first time will assume middle class. My work and pay is working class. My partner sounds and has the outlook of working class. She's educated to a higher level but she's not had a good, middle class education. She's lacking in cultural education i suppose. A marker of this could be general knowledge isn't great. By all tree latest measures I've seen (an online class test developed by an academic institution) has her strongly middle class and me hovering between middle and working class. Yet everyone meeting my partner for the first time would get working class.

BTW that class test was based on earnings, savings, job occupation/role, social links, etc. Basically a wide range of areas considered. Earnings put me working class but in some areas I'm so heavily into the middle class ranking I'm almost going out the other side from working class.

That is why class means nothing these days except to those with ulterior motives to box you in and perhaps control you. Rise up out of the class system/war. Don't let the socialists and class fascists box you in with a label!

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Stop ranting and get that chip off your shoulder about the party you once had the good sense to vote for.

The care given to my parents has on the whole been very good so from personal experience I don't see what problem you are on about.

that sums you up "i'm all right, so fcuk you all" you r completely incapable of looking at anything wider than your own narrow experience.

tory party of the last few years is far to the right compared to that even that of M Thatcher

I don't think you read the first line of my post above.

I was simply saying that based on what I can see of social care it is doing a good job.

Sorry if you think that putting the best interests of my elderly and infirm parents above other peoples makes me a heartless tory. But do let me me know whose else's parents I need to be concerned about to get my little plastic badge that says 'I'm a morally superior lefty who pretends to care for people I have never known and never will know' :roll:

I'm beginning to think that Coopster has a point

mamba80

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Stop ranting and get that chip off your shoulder about the party you once had the good sense to vote for.

The care given to my parents has on the whole been very good so from personal experience I don't see what problem you are on about.

that sums you up "i'm all right, so fcuk you all" you r completely incapable of looking at anything wider than your own narrow experience.

tory party of the last few years is far to the right compared to that even that of M Thatcher

I don't think you read the first line of my post above.

I was simply saying that based on what I can see of social care it is doing a good job.

Sorry if you think that putting the best interests of my elderly and infirm parents above other peoples makes me a heartless tory. But do let me me know whose else's parents I need to be concerned about to get my little plastic badge that says 'I'm a morally superior lefty who pretends to care for people I have never known and never will know' :roll:

I'm beginning to think that Coopster has a point

Its about society, isnt it, i would nt put anyone else family ahead of mine & wouldn't expect you to either, but its being able to show genuine compassion, outrage and hopefully some change in Gov policy towards people who dont have good care, who arent as fortunate as you, such as the employer who found a member of staff was sleeping rough? put him in a hotel, you would have sacked him........time and time again steve0, all you show is a selfish "i'm alright jack" attitude, which is pretty much what recent tory leaders have too, which is why its your party of choice, its got nothing to do with economic competence, May has shown she hasn't any.

As to your last sentence, didnt do C any credit and it doesnt do you any either.
i'll be honest here, the term Mongol is demeaning, to Down syndrome suffers and their families, i at first didn't have a clue what he was on about, it is so offensive, typical that you refer to it, you have no empathy.

Stevo_666

What sort of response did you expect if you called him a f*****g idiot? You just got it back with interest on top. Anyway, sticks and stones.

Feel free to keep reading between the lines and jumping to conclusions based on the stereotypical image in your head of a nasty tory. At least I don't pretend to have a bleeding heart to try and appear morally superior.

I'm doing my bit for the people that matter to me. And funding the NHS while not using it. More than a lot of the bleeding heart brigade do (that's if you don't count self righteous pronouncements on the internet).

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

On a more topical comment for the thread:

If we take that the Tories have willingly pulled the UK out of the single market, despite having the option not to, and Labour being openly hostile to any firm that is profitable, who is the pro-business party of any political signifcance?

That rather relevant additiion narrows it down a fair bit

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

What sort of response did you expect if you called him a f*****g idiot? You just got it back with interest on top. Anyway, sticks and stones.

Feel free to keep reading between the lines and jumping to conclusions based on the stereotypical image in your head of a nasty tory. At least I don't pretend to have a bleeding heart to try and appear morally superior.

I'm doing my bit for the people that matter to me. And funding the NHS while not using it. More than a lot of the bleeding heart brigade do (that's if you don't count self righteous pronouncements on the internet).

It's funny, on the one hand you're saying Mamba's got you all wrong, and then in the next line bragging about not pretending to care. Do you secretly help out at the local hedgehog sanctuary?

Stevo_666

I do give to animal charities actually :shock:

I'm highlighting the differences between banging on about caring and actually doing something or contributing to it.

Going back to the underlying subjects of NHS and social care, do you not find ironic that those who shout loudest about uncaring tories usually contribute less to these services than the people that they are criticising?

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

Going back to the underlying subjects of NHS and social care, do you not find ironic that those who shout loudest about uncaring tories usually contribute less to these services than the people that they are criticising?

Are you suggesting that the level of criticism one is able to make should be proportional to your tax bill?

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Going back to the underlying subjects of NHS and social care, do you not find ironic that those who shout loudest about uncaring tories usually contribute less to these services than the people that they are criticising?

Are you suggesting that the level of criticism one is able to make should be proportional to your tax bill?

It's a free country and you're free to whinge - Cake Stop appears to be the land of the free. But likewise people are free to ignore it, especially if they do more than just moan.

How do you think the whacking great tax rebate I got a week or so back affects this?

rick_chasey

Answer the question straight Stevo.

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Answer the question straight Stevo.

Already have. Just read between the lines like you usually do when you're on one of your PC crusades.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

I do give to animal charities actually :shock:

I'm highlighting the differences between banging on about caring and actually doing something or contributing to it.

Going back to the underlying subjects of NHS and social care, do you not find ironic that those who shout loudest about uncaring tories usually contribute less to these services than the people that they are criticising?

I knew it. Of course actually donating or volunteering is more useful than posting on here, but this is an Internet forum and who knows who is just talking and who really does contribute beyond what they are legally required to. I'm not sure how the amount of tax someone pays or their political allegiance has any relevance to the validity of their views on the health spending. There are plenty of higher rate taxpayer lefties, just as there are plenty of conservatives who are eligible for tax credits, and all shades in between.

ballysmate

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

I do give to animal charities actually :shock:

I'm highlighting the differences between banging on about caring and actually doing something or contributing to it.

Going back to the underlying subjects of NHS and social care, do you not find ironic that those who shout loudest about uncaring tories usually contribute less to these services than the people that they are criticising?

I knew it. Of course actually donating or volunteering is more useful than posting on here, but this is an Internet forum and who knows who is just talking and who really does contribute beyond what they are legally required to. I'm not sure how the amount of tax someone pays or their political allegiance has any relevance to the validity of their views on the health spending. There are plenty of higher rate taxpayer lefties, just as there are plenty of conservatives who are eligible for tax credits, and all shades in between.

Undoubtedly true. But in Mamba's world, and some others' it has to be said, anyone voting Tory is a heartless twunt.

mamba80

Stevo 666 wrote:

What sort of response did you expect if you called him a f*****g idiot? You just got it back with interest on top. Anyway, sticks and stones.

Feel free to keep reading between the lines and jumping to conclusions based on the stereotypical image in your head of a nasty tory. At least I don't pretend to have a bleeding heart to try and appear morally superior.

I'm doing my bit for the people that matter to me. And funding the NHS while not using it. More than a lot of the bleeding heart brigade do (that's if you don't count self righteous pronouncements on the internet).

Its the Gov 's job to fund the NHS/social Care - we arent back in the 19 century, no yet anyway
OR stand up, say they dont believe in a publicly funded NHS and let the voters decide?

i know lots of nice Tories (as i do brexitiers) but the impression you give is that you are on the extreme right of that party, if thats wrong, then maybe you should try a little more compassion or even empathy? your phrase "bleeding hearts" says what you think of anyone who appears "soft" on these sort of social issues.

Coopsters use of the word Mongol, doesnt bother me at all, its offensive to anyone with a downs child perhaps? thats why he should have withdrawn it (not to spare my feelings) he was asked to by SC and refused, which shows his lack of character.
you referred to his comment, you didnt need to did you? for no other reason than to join in with him, says a lot about you too.

edit... sorry, i thought you were happy with the care you receive for your ill parents but you dont use the NHS? your kids havent had any vaccinations have? ah you went private for them too and you went private for your childrens births too?

mr_goo

I see that this thread is descending into the usual Cake Shop mud slinging. I'll hold my hands up and admit I've done it. But it's tiring, boring and it is offensive.
Come on guys, most of you hold down some pretty responsible jobs which surely require you to be diplomatic. Get back on track.

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

What sort of response did you expect if you called him a f*****g idiot? You just got it back with interest on top. Anyway, sticks and stones.

Feel free to keep reading between the lines and jumping to conclusions based on the stereotypical image in your head of a nasty tory. At least I don't pretend to have a bleeding heart to try and appear morally superior.

I'm doing my bit for the people that matter to me. And funding the NHS while not using it. More than a lot of the bleeding heart brigade do (that's if you don't count self righteous pronouncements on the internet).

Its the Gov 's job to fund the NHS/social Care - we arent back in the 19 century, no yet anyway
OR stand up, say they dont believe in a publicly funded NHS and let the voters decide?

i know lots of nice Tories (as i do brexitiers) but the impression you give is that you are on the extreme right of that party, if thats wrong, then maybe you should try a little more compassion or even empathy? your phrase "bleeding hearts" says what you think of anyone who appears "soft" on these sort of social issues.

Coopsters use of the word Mongol, doesnt bother me at all, its offensive to anyone with a downs child perhaps? thats why he should have withdrawn it (not to spare my feelings) he was asked to by SC and refused, which shows his lack of character.
you referred to his comment, you didnt need to did you? for no other reason than to join in with him, says a lot about you too.

edit... sorry, i thought you were happy with the care you receive for your ill parents but you dont use the NHS? your kids havent had any vaccinations have? ah you went private for them too and you went private for your childrens births too?

If he had called you that without provocation then I would have said something. I've done it before to someone else on the same thread. But you provoked and he reacted so I didn't feel the need. He was probably particularly aggrieved given who the insult came from so I can understand the angry reaction.

Think what you like about where I sit on the political spectrum. But the difference between words and deeds is pretty relevant. You can show your compassion by doing something rather than just telling everyone how much you care. I prefer deeds as mentioned above.

Btw have not used the NHS for years, not a case of never. And I pay tax on my company BUPA....win win for the NHS.

Stevo_666

Mr Goo wrote:

I see that this thread is descending into the usual Cake Shop mud slinging. I'll hold my hands up and admit I've done it. But it's tiring, boring and it is offensive.
Come on guys, most of you hold down some pretty responsible jobs which surely require you to be diplomatic. Get back on track.

Goo for moderator...

I spend too long being diplomatic at work.

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

I do give to animal charities actually :shock:

I'm highlighting the differences between banging on about caring and actually doing something or contributing to it.

Going back to the underlying subjects of NHS and social care, do you not find ironic that those who shout loudest about uncaring tories usually contribute less to these services than the people that they are criticising?

I knew it. Of course actually donating or volunteering is more useful than posting on here, but this is an Internet forum and who knows who is just talking and who really does contribute beyond what they are legally required to. I'm not sure how the amount of tax someone pays or their political allegiance has any relevance to the validity of their views on the health spending. There are plenty of higher rate taxpayer lefties, just as there are plenty of conservatives who are eligible for tax credits, and all shades in between.

I know I'm generalising but there is a certain amount of truth in the above

I don't mind mind being a bit of a pantomime villain on some subjects in here, but its not really in my nature to spout about doing good/caring etc. I just get on with it where I feel the need.

mamba80

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

What sort of response did you expect if you called him a f*****g idiot? You just got it back with interest on top. Anyway, sticks and stones.

Feel free to keep reading between the lines and jumping to conclusions based on the stereotypical image in your head of a nasty tory. At least I don't pretend to have a bleeding heart to try and appear morally superior.

I'm doing my bit for the people that matter to me. And funding the NHS while not using it. More than a lot of the bleeding heart brigade do (that's if you don't count self righteous pronouncements on the internet).

Its the Gov 's job to fund the NHS/social Care - we arent back in the 19 century, no yet anyway
OR stand up, say they dont believe in a publicly funded NHS and let the voters decide?

i know lots of nice Tories (as i do brexitiers) but the impression you give is that you are on the extreme right of that party, if thats wrong, then maybe you should try a little more compassion or even empathy? your phrase "bleeding hearts" says what you think of anyone who appears "soft" on these sort of social issues.

Coopsters use of the word Mongol, doesnt bother me at all, its offensive to anyone with a downs child perhaps? thats why he should have withdrawn it (not to spare my feelings) he was asked to by SC and refused, which shows his lack of character.
you referred to his comment, you didnt need to did you? for no other reason than to join in with him, says a lot about you too.

edit... sorry, i thought you were happy with the care you receive for your ill parents but you dont use the NHS? your kids havent had any vaccinations have? ah you went private for them too and you went private for your childrens births too?

If he had called you that without provocation then I would have said something. I've done it before to someone else on the same thread. But you provoked and he reacted so I didn't feel the need. He was probably particularly aggrieved given who the insult came from so I can understand the angry reaction.

Think what you like about where I sit on the political spectrum. But the difference between words and deeds is pretty relevant. You can show your compassion by doing something rather than just telling everyone how much you care. I prefer deeds as mentioned above.

Btw have not used the NHS for years, not a case of never. And I pay tax on my company BUPA....win win for the NHS.

its got nothing to do with you though, has it? and i didnt reply to him or mention it until you dragged it up!!! neither has what anyone gives or doesnt to charity etc, it would be unproven anyway, how you vote has far more relevance, Governments can change society not a few pounds to an animal sanctuary, an argument could be made that charitable giving gets the Gov off the hook for what they are responsible for?

Getting back to social care, you said you ve no complaints about the care your elderly parents have received and that you/family are at least are part caring for them? then you say you dont use the NHS..... at some point or other we ll all need the NHS, even if its in part, chances are your bupa Dr's/nurses also were nhs trained, at tax payers expense.

i see the BBC have been caught out asking Corbyn a question on shoot to kill referencing the Paris attacks but then giving his asnswer to a different question on a general policy of shoot to kill..... no wonder he gets a bad press.

rjsterry

Ballysmate wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

I do give to animal charities actually :shock:

I'm highlighting the differences between banging on about caring and actually doing something or contributing to it.

Going back to the underlying subjects of NHS and social care, do you not find ironic that those who shout loudest about uncaring tories usually contribute less to these services than the people that they are criticising?

I knew it. Of course actually donating or volunteering is more useful than posting on here, but this is an Internet forum and who knows who is just talking and who really does contribute beyond what they are legally required to. I'm not sure how the amount of tax someone pays or their political allegiance has any relevance to the validity of their views on the health spending. There are plenty of higher rate taxpayer lefties, just as there are plenty of conservatives who are eligible for tax credits, and all shades in between.

Undoubtedly true. But in Mamba's world, and some others' it has to be said, anyone voting Tory is a heartless twunt.

Agreed: the heartless Tory is a lazy stereotype, just as much as the bleeding heart liberal snowflake, and every other cliché. They're all easy ways to dismiss what someone is saying without having to come up with a real counter argument and as Mr Goo has pointed out, it's an easy trap to fall into and doesn't take the discussion forward.

mamba80

Ballysmate wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

I do give to animal charities actually :shock:

I'm highlighting the differences between banging on about caring and actually doing something or contributing to it.

Going back to the underlying subjects of NHS and social care, do you not find ironic that those who shout loudest about uncaring tories usually contribute less to these services than the people that they are criticising?

I knew it. Of course actually donating or volunteering is more useful than posting on here, but this is an Internet forum and who knows who is just talking and who really does contribute beyond what they are legally required to. I'm not sure how the amount of tax someone pays or their political allegiance has any relevance to the validity of their views on the health spending. There are plenty of higher rate taxpayer lefties, just as there are plenty of conservatives who are eligible for tax credits, and all shades in between.

Undoubtedly true. But in Mamba's world, and some others' it has to be said, anyone voting Tory is a heartless twunt.

Would that be in my Downs syndrome world....... ?
Bally, i know plenty of nice tories (as i said) including my Mum, who was the most caring person you could hope to meet, she didnt agree with all tory policies, esp those to do with the NHS (she was a former nurse) but she felt on balance, the tories were better at managing the economy..... had she lived no doubt she d have come to a different conclusion.
Just as not all Labour party members are communists, not all tories are fascists.
But the tory party has moved more to the right, as no doubt the nation has too, i happen to think thats a bad thing, which is why i dont vote Tory anymore.

fwiw you dont come across as heartless but some others do.

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

I do give to animal charities actually :shock:

I'm highlighting the differences between banging on about caring and actually doing something or contributing to it.

Going back to the underlying subjects of NHS and social care, do you not find ironic that those who shout loudest about uncaring tories usually contribute less to these services than the people that they are criticising?

I knew it. Of course actually donating or volunteering is more useful than posting on here, but this is an Internet forum and who knows who is just talking and who really does contribute beyond what they are legally required to. I'm not sure how the amount of tax someone pays or their political allegiance has any relevance to the validity of their views on the health spending. There are plenty of higher rate taxpayer lefties, just as there are plenty of conservatives who are eligible for tax credits, and all shades in between.

I know I'm generalising but there is a certain amount of truth in the above

I don't mind mind being a bit of a pantomime villain on some subjects in here, but its not really in my nature to spout about doing good/caring etc. .

Only your 'uuuge tax rebates.

coopster_the_1st

As so few understand taxes and the tax system on this thread, here is an analogy explained in language they should understand

Explaining how tax works to the simpletons wrote:

There are 10 drinkers in a bar who decide to settle their £100 weekly beer bill roughly the same way we pay our taxes. So, the first four men (the poorest) paid nothing; the fifth paid £1; the sixth £3; the seventh £7; the eighth £12; the ninth £18; and the 10th man, the richest, paid £59.

Then the barman decided to give them a £20 discount for being good customers. The group wanted to continue to pay the new £80 bill the same way as before. While the first four men still drank for free, the other six divided up the £20 windfall by following the progressive principle of the tax system. So the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing, making a 100 per cent saving; the sixth man paid £2 instead of £3 (a 33 per cent saving); the seventh man paid £5 instead of £7 (a 28 per cent saving); the eighth £9 instead of £12 (a 25 per cent saving); and the ninth £14 instead of £18 (a 22 per cent saving). The 10th man paid £49 instead of £59 (a 16 per cent saving).

The men then began to compare their savings. “I only got £1 out of the £20,” declared the sixth man. He pointed to the 10th man, “but he got £10 – the wealthy get all the breaks!” “Wait a minute,” said the first four men, “we didn’t get anything at all. This new system exploits the poor.” So the other nine men surrounded the 10th and beat him up. The next week he didn’t show for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when they came to pay, they discovered they didn’t have enough money between them to pay even half the bill.

When you keep expecting the 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th men to pay more it ends up with less for those at the bottom...

Stevo_666

Rick, of successive governments offer tax deductions for things like investing in small businesses and making sensible pension provisions to minimise reliance on the state in future, then what do you expect.

What I am doing is helping snowflakes now and in years to come so a tax rebate is your share of the contribution. After all, we're in all this together. As you can see from this