Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Stevo_666 · January 2017

Rick Chasey wrote:

Having said that, Venezuela has food queues and shortages and that's capitalist too.

Pretty sure its socialist
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ivonaiacob/2016/07/24/venezuelas-failed-socialist-experiment/#70f641a858d4

coopster_the_1st · January 2017

Stevo 666 wrote:

Have a go at this one then:

Stevo_666 · January 2017

I like this one as well:

Nothing like a direct comparison to educate the under 40's

Stevo_666 · January 2017

Also

meursault · January 2017

Some good noodle places in Soho, small queues.

Stevo_666 · January 2017

meursault wrote:

Some good noodle places in Soho, small queues.

Any top tips?

rjsterry · January 2017

Rick Chasey wrote:

I kinda meant more how awful Soho is to eat out in.

I don't live in a communist country so I'll be f*cked if I'm gonna queue for food.

Just reminded me of it.

Would you want to eat somewhere in Soho without a queue? I mean if you can't get more than one person through the door at a time in Soho, it kind of suggests that the food is a bit s***.

meursault · January 2017

Stevo 666 wrote:

meursault wrote:

Some good noodle places in Soho, small queues.

Any top tips?

Tuk Tuk in Old Compton St and Viet Pho in Greek St both good.

Stevo_666 · January 2017

meursault wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

meursault wrote:

Some good noodle places in Soho, small queues.

Any top tips?

Tuk Tuk in Old Compton St and Viet Pho in Greek St both good.

Ta for that

RallyBiker · January 2017

meursault wrote:

RallyBiker wrote:

meursault wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

meursault wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

meursault wrote:

I was alluding to the class of professional politicians, rather than literally a career politician. There's a difference between the likes of Corbyn, active campaigner, rebel and the self serving careerist that typifies todays mp's. Corbyn has never (so far) been bought by the bosses, and has a (reformist) socialist manifesto. That in itself is anti establishment, so a long way from the Tory 2nd XI of Blairs new labour.

Is this Momentum Bingo? We had 'MSM' a few times, so I just need 'metropolitan elite' for a full house.

Outside of the Labour Party, Corbyn's support just isn't that great, so it's no surprise that publications which seek a slightly broader readership are more critical. What Corbyn supporters seem to fail to accept is that individual socialist fervour is not a substitute for actually persuading the majority of people outside the party who wouldn't automatically vote Labour. If austerity is the evil that you say, then to stand any chance of it being changed Labour needs to get a lot more votes than those of the ~600,000 members.

You know you're dealing with the hard left when they use phrases like 'Tory 2nd XI' or 'Tories with red rosettes' when referring to the Blarite wing of Labour

Indeed!

I think the 'swing' (is that a bingo!?) from the LP membership and the wider potential electorate support, is away from neo liberal New Labour, and back to what the party was founded on and for. Originally founded because the Tories and Liberals of the day did not represent working class people. Why would the vast majority of people vote for candidates that support big business and not fight for the needs of ordinary people? Blair's moronic grin worked for a while, but that time is gone.

Indeed it is gone - a bit like the support for Labour
http://www.ukpolitical.info/General_election_polls.htm

Seriously, Corbyn is just too far left to appeal to enough of the electorate to win Labour a general election. Ironically you slag off Blair, but he got Labour into power - three times in a row. The only way they have a hope of getting back into power is to go back towards the centre ground.

That was then, times have changed.

I remember canvassing the door steps for Militant (insert looney left jokes here...) pre Blair. There was massive support for him and LP because of an ingrained ageing loyal base. We explained how the LP was going to sell out to the bosses and the ruling class, but of course, it fell on deaf ears, drowned out by D:Reams sound track, and de-ideologising (my made up term) and a move towards personality politics and the lies of social democracy. Trickle down economics LOL. An Americanisation of politics ensued, which is of course, how the ruling class want it. No real ordinary people involved, leave it to the pro's. Distract by which man or woman is nicer or not.

The point being, that loyal base has evaporated. Leaving millions of working class people unrepresented in government. Corbyn got the leadership in an anomaly of incompetence by the PLP. He slipped through kind of un-noticed. But now that he is here, confidence in a different ideology to the status quo is growing. Hence the working class are not looking back to new labour, but looking now, for a genuine alternative.

My question is, if the Labour party does not purge the blairites and Corbyn is eventually brought down, what is the next step for the working class?

A new workers party?

Who do you actually class as the working class? Anyone who has a job would vote Conservative or UKIP. Students, luvvies and the rich celebs all vote "Labour". "Labour" needs to find itself a new name, cos they sure as hell don't represent me and my kind!

Your class is defined by your relationship to the means of production.

Earning a wage, but not owning your business makes you working class.
Working in and owning your own small business is middle class.
owning the means of production ruling class.

There are some grey areas. A teacher for example earns wages, but doesn't directly add value to a business, so bordering on middle class.

I don't know what you do, but working class consciousness is discovered by the realisation that we are exploited. That the distractions the ruling class convey, like racism and other discriminations are not the problem, but the ruling class themselves.

What utter bollix. There's no such thing as class any more, only size of personal wealth FACT

rjsterry · January 2017

RallyBiker wrote:

...

What utter bollix. There's no such thing as class any more, only size of personal wealth FACT

Ah, well, if it's written in block capitals then it must be true.

briantrumpet · January 2017

rjsterry wrote:

RallyBiker wrote:

...

What utter bollix. There's no such thing as class any more, only size of personal wealth FACT

Ah, well, if it's written in block capitals then it must be true.

I have the tendency to assume any claim to a 'fact' to be anything but, whether in minuscule or majuscule, and whatever the size of font.

joelsim · January 2017

Labour are pretty much done for. Unless Corbyn goes and someone like Starmer takes over they are dead.

They appear to have no strategy, more than willing to worry about losing a few people to ukip than keeping the vast majority happy. A shame, I'm not a Labour voter but always good to have an opposition to stop the worst excesses of the Tories which is needed now more than ever.

I guess Stoke will be the final nail in the coffin, Labour since 1950, never anything else. If they lose it it'll be somewhat challenging, although Corbyn seems to cling on come what may.

mamba80 · January 2017

Derided here but the public seem to support it.... even amongst Tory voters, time for change? should we have a referendum? lol!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 27381.html

ballysmate · January 2017

mamba80 wrote:

Derided here but the public seem to support it.... even amongst Tory voters, time for change? should we have a referendum? lol!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 27381.html

Lets see it in a manifesto then.

mamba80 · January 2017

Ballysmate wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Derided here but the public seem to support it.... even amongst Tory voters, time for change? should we have a referendum? lol!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 27381.html

Lets see it in a manifesto then.

tory, liberal or labour???? ...it ll happen, in one form or another, the 1:20 ratio is far too low, just needs time, People are p1ssed off and want new ideas.
for the majority on 8 or £10 per hour struggling to make ends meet and in debt, a director earning £5m per year is hard to justify, if you cant see that......

with a falling £/$ and euro and increased import costs, the Tories may well find themselves on the back foot with the economy, just as they are on the NHS.

Jez mon · January 2017

Ah lovely capitalism

bompington · January 2017

mamba80 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Derided here but the public seem to support it.... even amongst Tory voters, time for change? should we have a referendum? lol!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 27381.html

Lets see it in a manifesto then.

tory, liberal or labour???? ...it ll happen, in one form or another, the 1:20 ratio is far too low, just needs time, People are p1ssed off and want new ideas.
for the majority on 8 or £10 per hour struggling to make ends meet and in debt, a director earning £5m per year is hard to justify, if you cant see that......

with a falling £/$ and euro and increased import costs, the Tories may well find themselves on the back foot with the economy, just as they are on the NHS.

I think we should trial it on football players first, and then see how popular the policy is once not just the big stars but probably just about every premier league player has left the country. It would be like - well, the closest existing example would probably be Scottish football...

rolf_f · January 2017

Stevo 666 wrote:

I like this one as well:

Nothing like a direct comparison to educate the under 40's

That certainly is a powerful reminder of how, for all its good points, capitalism does have some severe problems.

mamba80 · January 2017

bompington wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Derided here but the public seem to support it.... even amongst Tory voters, time for change? should we have a referendum? lol!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 27381.html

Lets see it in a manifesto then.

tory, liberal or labour???? ...it ll happen, in one form or another, the 1:20 ratio is far too low, just needs time, People are p1ssed off and want new ideas.
for the majority on 8 or £10 per hour struggling to make ends meet and in debt, a director earning £5m per year is hard to justify, if you cant see that......

with a falling £/$ and euro and increased import costs, the Tories may well find themselves on the back foot with the economy, just as they are on the NHS.

I think we should trial it on football players first, and then see how popular the policy is once not just the big stars but probably just about every premier league player has left the country. It would be like - well, the closest existing example would probably be Scottish football...

why would it apply to football players? are they employers?

But seriously, lets have a split from what is clearly not working, we dont want these bl00dy foreigners taking our jobs and with the exodus of these players back to where they xxxxing well belong, will lead to more places in our great teams for home grown talent, in which we lead the world, so we will once again win the world cup and then export OUR players around the world, just as we used too.

they ll be some short term issues with a lack of players but it ll be worth it in the end, say by 2035, meanwhile i ve a SKY subscription to Euro games, so i really dont give a xxxx about those who havent.
Its what the people want.

kingstongraham · January 2017

mamba80 wrote:

why would it apply to football players?

Because they were one of the two examples that Corbyn used - footballers and top executives: http://news.sky.com/story/corbyn-footba ... p-10723814

kingstongraham · January 2017

mamba80 wrote:

the exodus of these players back to where they xxxxing well belong

China?

Stevo_666 · January 2017

mamba80 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Derided here but the public seem to support it.... even amongst Tory voters, time for change? should we have a referendum? lol!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 27381.html

Lets see it in a manifesto then.

tory, liberal or labour???? ...it ll happen, in one form or another, the 1:20 ratio is far too low, just needs time, People are p1ssed off and want new ideas.
for the majority on 8 or £10 per hour struggling to make ends meet and in debt, a director earning £5m per year is hard to justify, if you cant see that......

with a falling £/$ and euro and increased import costs, the Tories may well find themselves on the back foot with the economy, just as they are on the NHS.

So how many individuals will this really affect? Enough to make it anything more than hard left populism? I doubt it.

I said it above - its badly thought out and unworkable in practice. Even I thought of several holes in the idea and ways around it within half an hour even reading it. Once I'd stopped chuckling.

Even one of Corbyns former close advisors called it idiotic. The French abandoned their version as a bad idea (75% tax on earnings above a certain level) as it brought in naff all extra revenue and French footballers threatened to go on strike

Corbyns version is even more draconion so it has no chance.

Also to repeat - for companies not in the public sector, its a matter for the shareholders. While I'm supportive of giving shareholders a few more string to their bow to tackle executive mickey taking, apart from that my response would be it NOYFB (polite way of saying none of your business) - especially do gooder lefties who espose the politics of envy, which is what appears to be driving this.

rick_chasey · January 2017

Meanwhile power-sharing has collapsed in Northern Ireland.

meursault · January 2017

RallyBiker wrote:

meursault wrote:

RallyBiker wrote:

meursault wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

meursault wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

meursault wrote:

I was alluding to the class of professional politicians, rather than literally a career politician. There's a difference between the likes of Corbyn, active campaigner, rebel and the self serving careerist that typifies todays mp's. Corbyn has never (so far) been bought by the bosses, and has a (reformist) socialist manifesto. That in itself is anti establishment, so a long way from the Tory 2nd XI of Blairs new labour.

Is this Momentum Bingo? We had 'MSM' a few times, so I just need 'metropolitan elite' for a full house.

Outside of the Labour Party, Corbyn's support just isn't that great, so it's no surprise that publications which seek a slightly broader readership are more critical. What Corbyn supporters seem to fail to accept is that individual socialist fervour is not a substitute for actually persuading the majority of people outside the party who wouldn't automatically vote Labour. If austerity is the evil that you say, then to stand any chance of it being changed Labour needs to get a lot more votes than those of the ~600,000 members.

You know you're dealing with the hard left when they use phrases like 'Tory 2nd XI' or 'Tories with red rosettes' when referring to the Blarite wing of Labour

Indeed!

I think the 'swing' (is that a bingo!?) from the LP membership and the wider potential electorate support, is away from neo liberal New Labour, and back to what the party was founded on and for. Originally founded because the Tories and Liberals of the day did not represent working class people. Why would the vast majority of people vote for candidates that support big business and not fight for the needs of ordinary people? Blair's moronic grin worked for a while, but that time is gone.

Indeed it is gone - a bit like the support for Labour
http://www.ukpolitical.info/General_election_polls.htm

Seriously, Corbyn is just too far left to appeal to enough of the electorate to win Labour a general election. Ironically you slag off Blair, but he got Labour into power - three times in a row. The only way they have a hope of getting back into power is to go back towards the centre ground.

That was then, times have changed.

I remember canvassing the door steps for Militant (insert looney left jokes here...) pre Blair. There was massive support for him and LP because of an ingrained ageing loyal base. We explained how the LP was going to sell out to the bosses and the ruling class, but of course, it fell on deaf ears, drowned out by D:Reams sound track, and de-ideologising (my made up term) and a move towards personality politics and the lies of social democracy. Trickle down economics LOL. An Americanisation of politics ensued, which is of course, how the ruling class want it. No real ordinary people involved, leave it to the pro's. Distract by which man or woman is nicer or not.

The point being, that loyal base has evaporated. Leaving millions of working class people unrepresented in government. Corbyn got the leadership in an anomaly of incompetence by the PLP. He slipped through kind of un-noticed. But now that he is here, confidence in a different ideology to the status quo is growing. Hence the working class are not looking back to new labour, but looking now, for a genuine alternative.

My question is, if the Labour party does not purge the blairites and Corbyn is eventually brought down, what is the next step for the working class?

A new workers party?

Who do you actually class as the working class? Anyone who has a job would vote Conservative or UKIP. Students, luvvies and the rich celebs all vote "Labour". "Labour" needs to find itself a new name, cos they sure as hell don't represent me and my kind!

Your class is defined by your relationship to the means of production.

Earning a wage, but not owning your business makes you working class.
Working in and owning your own small business is middle class.
owning the means of production ruling class.

There are some grey areas. A teacher for example earns wages, but doesn't directly add value to a business, so bordering on middle class.

I don't know what you do, but working class consciousness is discovered by the realisation that we are exploited. That the distractions the ruling class convey, like racism and other discriminations are not the problem, but the ruling class themselves.

What utter bollix. There's no such thing as class any more, only size of personal wealth FACT

Where have you been? You could have saved me a lot of hand wringing, if you had turned up earlier...

Now, I know you are not going listen, imagine, contemplate, or think or anything but it is my duty to write this...

Capitalism is a class system, as Marx explained (never been refuted, but please, quote any sources you may have read), It still is a class system. The nature of it as a mode of production, means it's implicit in the system. It's how it (doesn't) work.

There is a clue in the title, and I'll put it in caps to make sure we can all see it.

CAPITALism. The whole thing, all of it, the only purpose of it, is to make more money, for those already with money.

geez, my wringing hands ache so...

Stevo_666 · January 2017

Not really:

ballysmate · January 2017

To be fair Stevo, it appears that all socialists are dummies.

bobmcstuff · January 2017

Stevo 666 wrote:

Not really:

I'm not sure of that definition matches a strict definition of capitalism, which is strictly about the economic factors - particularly the bit about not harming others which is a hallmark of liberalism rather than capitalism.

But that's how we (try to) implement it in practice so I'm not sure it really matters. You might are that we don't manage the "not harming others" bit all the time, though.

kingstongraham · January 2017

meursault wrote:

Earning a wage, but not owning your business makes you working class.
Working in and owning your own small business is middle class.
owning the means of production ruling class.

So I am working class because I now work for a large company, but when I owned my own company, supplying services to a large company (doing pretty much the same things), I was middle class?

Should I awaken my working class consciousness? I've never been called working class before. Ever in my life.

surrey_commuter · January 2017

KingstonGraham wrote:

meursault wrote:

Earning a wage, but not owning your business makes you working class.
Working in and owning your own small business is middle class.
owning the means of production ruling class.

So I am working class because I now work for a large company, but when I owned my own company, supplying services to a large company (doing pretty much the same things), I was middle class?

Should I awaken my working class consciousness? I've never been called working class before. Ever in my life.

buy 100 shares in you employer and you will become "ruling class"

Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Comments

Categories