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kingstongraham

Surrey Commuter wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

meursault wrote:

Earning a wage, but not owning your business makes you working class.
Working in and owning your own small business is middle class.
owning the means of production ruling class.

So I am working class because I now work for a large company, but when I owned my own company, supplying services to a large company (doing pretty much the same things), I was middle class?

Should I awaken my working class consciousness? I've never been called working class before. Ever in my life.

buy 100 shares in you employer and you will become "ruling class"

Not possible - the owners of my employer are genuinely ruling class.

haydenm

Rubbish, class has more to do with education and ambitions these days. If you have little choice where you work (ie down the local warehouse) then you are working class. If you are educated and have 'career' then you are middle class and if you are born with money/went to private school then you are somewhere above me and therefore I dislike you...

Anyway, haven't we all decided that socialism is essentially communism, that's what we want and anyone who disagrees shall be sent to the gulag?

surrey_commuter

KingstonGraham wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

meursault wrote:

Earning a wage, but not owning your business makes you working class.
Working in and owning your own small business is middle class.
owning the means of production ruling class.

So I am working class because I now work for a large company, but when I owned my own company, supplying services to a large company (doing pretty much the same things), I was middle class?

Should I awaken my working class consciousness? I've never been called working class before. Ever in my life.

buy 100 shares in you employer and you will become "ruling class"

Not possible - the owners of my employer are genuinely ruling class.

in that case accept that you are working class - the good news is that WW1 will end in a year's time and we win. The bad news is that it all kicks off in another 20 years but with your life expectancy that won't be your concern.

bompington

HaydenM wrote:

Anyway, haven't we all decided that socialism is essentially communism, that's what we want and anyone who disagrees shall be sent to the gulag?

I know you jest but, in all seriousness, the biggest problem I have with socialism is that its internal logic always leads towards compulsion.

Stevo_666

KingstonGraham wrote:

meursault wrote:

Earning a wage, but not owning your business makes you working class.
Working in and owning your own small business is middle class.
owning the means of production ruling class.

So I am working class because I now work for a large company, but when I owned my own company, supplying services to a large company (doing pretty much the same things), I was middle class?

Should I awaken my working class consciousness? I've never been called working class before. Ever in my life.

Yay, I'm working class. Do I get a pay rise?

Stevo_666

bompington wrote:

HaydenM wrote:

Anyway, haven't we all decided that socialism is essentially communism, that's what we want and anyone who disagrees shall be sent to the gulag?

I know you jest but, in all seriousness, the biggest problem I have with socialism is that its internal logic always leads towards compulsion.

As I have said before - to enforce socialism you need a totalitarian state as it goes against some pretty key bits of human nature.

That's before you get to the point that economically, socialism is a car crash.

mamba80

Just as your version of capitalism doesnt exist, neither does your version of socialism, well not in Europe.

Both models have serious flaws and "borrow" from each others philosophy, as i keep reminding you steve, its about balance.

though Mays speech today, might well ensure the next GE will be wide open again lol! i reckon we might not be waiting too long for it either.

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

Just as your version of capitalism doesnt exist, neither does your version of socialism, well not in Europe.

Both models have serious flaws and "borrow" from each others philosophy, as i keep reminding you steve, its about balance.

though Mays speech today, might well ensure the next GE will be wide open again lol! i reckon we might not be waiting too long for it either.

The bet's still on. My money is still safe
http://www.ukpolitical.info/General_election_polls.htm

I recognise that no real life set up is 'pure' - just important we have more of one than the other so as not to destroy prosperity

mamba80

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Just as your version of capitalism doesnt exist, neither does your version of socialism, well not in Europe.

Both models have serious flaws and "borrow" from each others philosophy, as i keep reminding you steve, its about balance.

though Mays speech today, might well ensure the next GE will be wide open again lol! i reckon we might not be waiting too long for it either.

The bet's still on. My money is still safe
http://www.ukpolitical.info/General_election_polls.htm

I recognise that no real life set up is 'pure' - just important we have more of one than the other so as not to destroy prosperity

Your preaching to the converted, with out wealth creators, who also create jobs, we d not have the money for public services, equally too much social welfare takes away peoples desire to improve themselves but the state also has a roll to play here too.

Its about striking a balance and with things like education, social care, NHS the balance is to far skewed to the right of centre.

Of course now, a GE would go to TM but should the brexit deal not go TM's way, then the tories will pay for this in the ballot box, maybe she should take heed of Gordon Brown?, he waited too long, the polls changed and he lost, i d hate to think TM will make the same mistake....... :shock:

kingstongraham

Stevo 666 wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

meursault wrote:

Earning a wage, but not owning your business makes you working class.
Working in and owning your own small business is middle class.
owning the means of production ruling class.

So I am working class because I now work for a large company, but when I owned my own company, supplying services to a large company (doing pretty much the same things), I was middle class?

Should I awaken my working class consciousness? I've never been called working class before. Ever in my life.

Yay, I'm working class. Do I get a pay rise?

No, you get crushed beneath the boot of the oppressor. Sorry.

meursault

KingstonGraham wrote:

meursault wrote:

Earning a wage, but not owning your business makes you working class.
Working in and owning your own small business is middle class.
owning the means of production ruling class.

So I am working class because I now work for a large company, but when I owned my own company, supplying services to a large company (doing pretty much the same things), I was middle class?

Should I awaken my working class consciousness? I've never been called working class before. Ever in my life.

Question 1: Yes
Question 2: Yes

kingstongraham

meursault wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

meursault wrote:

Earning a wage, but not owning your business makes you working class.
Working in and owning your own small business is middle class.
owning the means of production ruling class.

So I am working class because I now work for a large company, but when I owned my own company, supplying services to a large company (doing pretty much the same things), I was middle class?

Should I awaken my working class consciousness? I've never been called working class before. Ever in my life.

Question 1: Yes
Question 2: Yes

Question 1: Then I'm afraid it is a bit meaningless. It makes my gardener middle class, and my boss' boss working class. Also, can you be working class and have a gardener?

Question 2: I'm a bit worried that if I do, I might want to overthrow the system.

What about having a pension and ISAs with investments in large companies? Am I also ruling class?

rjsterry

I might get a t-shirt made up: petit bourgeoisie and proud!

Stevo_666

KingstonGraham wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

meursault wrote:

Earning a wage, but not owning your business makes you working class.
Working in and owning your own small business is middle class.
owning the means of production ruling class.

So I am working class because I now work for a large company, but when I owned my own company, supplying services to a large company (doing pretty much the same things), I was middle class?

Should I awaken my working class consciousness? I've never been called working class before. Ever in my life.

Yay, I'm working class. Do I get a pay rise?

No, you get crushed beneath the boot of the oppressor. Sorry.

Boo hoo. It's tough at the bottom of the pile.

surrey_commuter

KingstonGraham wrote:

meursault wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

meursault wrote:

Earning a wage, but not owning your business makes you working class.
Working in and owning your own small business is middle class.
owning the means of production ruling class.

So I am working class because I now work for a large company, but when I owned my own company, supplying services to a large company (doing pretty much the same things), I was middle class?

Should I awaken my working class consciousness? I've never been called working class before. Ever in my life.

Question 1: Yes
Question 2: Yes

Question 1: Then I'm afraid it is a bit meaningless. It makes my gardener middle class, and my boss' boss working class. Also, can you be working class and have a gardener?

Question 2: I'm a bit worried that if I do, I might want to overthrow the system.

What about having a pension and ISAs with investments in large companies? Am I also ruling class?

when you are lording it over your gardener and oppressing your cleaner then you are ruling class. The rest of the week you are one of the prols.

Is their any chance you can arrange for your domestic help to work at the weekend so you can arrange your week on a class basis?

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

Its about striking a balance and with things like education, social care, NHS the balance is to far skewed to the right of centre.

Of course now, a GE would go to TM but should the brexit deal not go TM's way, then the tories will pay for this in the ballot box, maybe she should take heed of Gordon Brown?, he waited too long, the polls changed and he lost, i d hate to think TM will make the same mistake....... :shock:

As for the NHS, the OBR says were spending too much on it - and on oldies. And they are independent...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38652708

As for your claim that you might win that bet, you'd better stop

mamba80

dont know what the odds were on Trump winning 3 years ago but i bet they were not good.....

the gov has just cut again funding to the Hospice i intend to donate my winnings too....

xxxx what the OBR says, what do you think?

Stevo_666

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40088&t=13075005

briantrumpet

Stevo 666 wrote:

As for the NHS, the OBR says were spending too much on it - and on oldies. And they are independent...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38652708

Not quite the same slant about what the OBR are saying, according to this report: https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -obs-finds

"Last September the OBR set out how the growing number of older people in coming decades would oblige governments to spend more on healthcare, though it did not say how much more.

Its latest figures detail how much will be needed in light of three factors it did not analyse then: the emergence of new technology that will boost patient care, the development of new drugs and a rise in the number of people with chronic long-term conditions, such as diabetes and cancer.

Richard Murray, director of policy at the King’s Fund, said: “The OBR’s acceptance of the need for a larger long-term increase in the proportion of GDP we spend on health is a welcome dose of realism, but also highlights the current pressures on the NHS. "

kingstongraham

Surrey Commuter wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

meursault wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

meursault wrote:

Earning a wage, but not owning your business makes you working class.
Working in and owning your own small business is middle class.
owning the means of production ruling class.

So I am working class because I now work for a large company, but when I owned my own company, supplying services to a large company (doing pretty much the same things), I was middle class?

Should I awaken my working class consciousness? I've never been called working class before. Ever in my life.

Question 1: Yes
Question 2: Yes

Question 1: Then I'm afraid it is a bit meaningless. It makes my gardener middle class, and my boss' boss working class. Also, can you be working class and have a gardener?

Question 2: I'm a bit worried that if I do, I might want to overthrow the system.

What about having a pension and ISAs with investments in large companies? Am I also ruling class?

when you are lording it over your gardener and oppressing your cleaner then you are ruling class. The rest of the week you are one of the prols.

Is their any chance you can arrange for your domestic help to work at the weekend so you can arrange your week on a class basis?

Then I might have to meet them.

mamba80

briantrumpet wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

As for the NHS, the OBR says were spending too much on it - and on oldies. And they are independent...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38652708

Not quite the same slant about what the OBR are saying, according to this report: https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -obs-finds

"Last September the OBR set out how the growing number of older people in coming decades would oblige governments to spend more on healthcare, though it did not say how much more.

Its latest figures detail how much will be needed in light of three factors it did not analyse then: the emergence of new technology that will boost patient care, the development of new drugs and a rise in the number of people with chronic long-term conditions, such as diabetes and cancer.

Richard Murray, director of policy at the King’s Fund, said: “The OBR’s acceptance of the need for a larger long-term increase in the proportion of GDP we spend on health is a welcome dose of realism, but also highlights the current pressures on the NHS. "

Steve0 doesnt read past the headlines.......

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

briantrumpet wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

As for the NHS, the OBR says were spending too much on it - and on oldies. And they are independent...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38652708

Not quite the same slant about what the OBR are saying, according to this report: https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -obs-finds

"Last September the OBR set out how the growing number of older people in coming decades would oblige governments to spend more on healthcare, though it did not say how much more.

Its latest figures detail how much will be needed in light of three factors it did not analyse then: the emergence of new technology that will boost patient care, the development of new drugs and a rise in the number of people with chronic long-term conditions, such as diabetes and cancer.

Richard Murray, director of policy at the King’s Fund, said: “The OBR’s acceptance of the need for a larger long-term increase in the proportion of GDP we spend on health is a welcome dose of realism, but also highlights the current pressures on the NHS. "

Steve0 doesnt read past the headlines.......

Wrong again

But I am well aware of issues such as growing care for the elderly given that I am involved in that with my own parents.

mamba80

Stevo 666 wrote:

But I am well aware of issues such as growing care for the elderly given that I am involved in that with my own parents.

Best move to Surrey then, if your not already? another referendum, this time on a 15% council tax rise to pay for social care, Surrey tory council leader David Hodge; "someone has to stand up and tell the truth what is happening with adult social care" he should join the labour party.
One of my parents died in hospital due to no places available in nursing home plus i saw first hand the lack of staff and basic nursing care and the huge numbers of eu workers, at all levels, in the nhs, worked to the bone.

its things like this that make me dislike the Tories, they really dont give shitte about ordinary people, you see this with the nhs/education and most importantly Brexit, people will lose their jobs, we ll have less income to spend on public services, over this debacle and they dont care.
their mates in the press will blame someone else, probably corbyn or the last labour government and people like you will suck it up, pathetic.

surrey_commuter

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

But I am well aware of issues such as growing care for the elderly given that I am involved in that with my own parents.

Best move to Surrey then, if your not already? another referendum, this time on a 15% council tax rise to pay for social care, Surrey tory council leader David Hodge; "someone has to stand up and tell the truth what is happening with adult social care" he should join the labour party.
One of my parents died in hospital due to no places available in nursing home plus i saw first hand the lack of staff and basic nursing care and the huge numbers of eu workers, at all levels, in the nhs, worked to the bone.

its things like this that make me dislike the Tories, they really dont give shitte about ordinary people, you see this with the nhs/education and most importantly Brexit, people will lose their jobs, we ll have less income to spend on public services, over this debacle and they dont care.
their mates in the press will blame someone else, probably corbyn or the last labour government and people like you will suck it up, pathetic.

They will blame the voters of Surrey when they vote NO!!!

I presume there will be a reversion to a poll tax and only the bill payers get a vote

Edit: I think you meant move his parents to Suurey

kingstongraham

But this is a statutory requirement, so it has to be paid for. If the vote goes against, it will be everything else that gets cut.

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

But I am well aware of issues such as growing care for the elderly given that I am involved in that with my own parents.

Best move to Surrey then, if your not already? another referendum, this time on a 15% council tax rise to pay for social care, Surrey tory council leader David Hodge; "someone has to stand up and tell the truth what is happening with adult social care" he should join the labour party.
One of my parents died in hospital due to no places available in nursing home plus i saw first hand the lack of staff and basic nursing care and the huge numbers of eu workers, at all levels, in the nhs, worked to the bone.

its things like this that make me dislike the Tories, they really dont give shitte about ordinary people, you see this with the nhs/education and most importantly Brexit, people will lose their jobs, we ll have less income to spend on public services, over this debacle and they dont care.
their mates in the press will blame someone else, probably corbyn or the last labour government and people like you will suck it up, pathetic.

Stop ranting and get that chip off your shoulder about the party you once had the good sense to vote for.

The care given to my parents has on the whole been very good so from personal experience I don't see what problem you are on about.

surrey_commuter

KingstonGraham wrote:

But this is a statutory requirement, so it has to be paid for. If the vote goes against, it will be everything else that gets cut.

This is a minefield as very few people will have elderly relatives in the county so will be paying for something they will never benefit from. Corbyn wants it paid centrally which means the "rich" will pay. Problem is that anybody with more than £30k is already resentful that they are self funding.

mamba80

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

But I am well aware of issues such as growing care for the elderly given that I am involved in that with my own parents.

Best move to Surrey then, if your not already? another referendum, this time on a 15% council tax rise to pay for social care, Surrey tory council leader David Hodge; "someone has to stand up and tell the truth what is happening with adult social care" he should join the labour party.
One of my parents died in hospital due to no places available in nursing home plus i saw first hand the lack of staff and basic nursing care and the huge numbers of eu workers, at all levels, in the nhs, worked to the bone.

its things like this that make me dislike the Tories, they really dont give shitte about ordinary people, you see this with the nhs/education and most importantly Brexit, people will lose their jobs, we ll have less income to spend on public services, over this debacle and they dont care.
their mates in the press will blame someone else, probably corbyn or the last labour government and people like you will suck it up, pathetic.

Stop ranting and get that chip off your shoulder about the party you once had the good sense to vote for.

The care given to my parents has on the whole been very good so from personal experience I don't see what problem you are on about.

that sums you up "i'm all right, so fcuk you all" you r completely incapable of looking at anything wider than your own narrow experience.

tory party of the last few years is far to the right compared to that even that of M Thatcher

mr_goo

Social Care Funding should be a central government responsibility, it is an extension of the NHS. As stated by Comrade Jeremy. I just wish that when he stated the obvious, that he would actually back it up with a solution.
The only simple way that I can see to meet the immediate costs is to put a stop on Trident Mk2 and use that money to look after this generation and next generation of elderly. The life expectancy for most of us ' WORKING CLASS' will actually start to come back down, because the retirement age is creeping up. Therefore many people in their 50s and below will never ever retire or if they do their retirement will be very short lived.

Following on from earlier conversations. Definitions of Class is easy to categorise. I use the job loss / redundancy test.

Social Class - State and Local Council funded, no worries, someone else will pick up the tab.
Working Class - If one loses their job, in most instances they will experience financial stress / hardship within 3 months.
Middle Class - If one loses their job, in most instances they will have a severance and enough in savings to survive 12-18 months with a few cut backs. By which time they will drop into another well paid job.
Upper Class - Most likely you have never worked. No financial problems whatsoever. Buy another yacht and repaint the Gulfstream.

bompington

Mr Goo wrote:

Middle Class - If one loses their job, in most instances they will have a severance and enough in savings to survive 12-18 months with a few cut backs. By which time they will drop into another well paid job.

How we laughed at Meursault when he suggested that we were (pretty much) all working class.
But, comparing Goo's helpful insights here with my experience of redundancy a couple of years ago, it appears that I'm a long way from middle class. FWIW, my redundancy pay was about 4 months salary (after 17 years in the job), and savings? You've got to be joking.