Join the Labour Party and save your country!

meursault

Stevo 666 wrote:

meursault wrote:

Calm down, If Marxism is irrelevant, just forget it, no need to get so wound up.

What's irrelevant?

:P

briantrumpet

Interesting - this one has just gone to the Libdems: http://election-data.co.uk/andrews-prev ... s-12-01-17

Sandhill (Sunderland) result:
LDEM: 45.0% (+41.5)
LAB: 25.0% (-29.9)
UKIP: 18.7% (-7.2)
CON: 10.0% (-5.7)
GRN: 1.3% (+1.3)

rick_chasey

Usual council seat caveats but check that swing out.

meursault

briantrumpet wrote:

Interesting - this one has just gone to the Libdems: http://election-data.co.uk/andrews-prev ... s-12-01-17

Sandhill (Sunderland) result:
LDEM: 45.0% (+41.5)
LAB: 25.0% (-29.9)
UKIP: 18.7% (-7.2)
CON: 10.0% (-5.7)
GRN: 1.3% (+1.3)

Sunderland city council, Tyne and Wear; caused by the disqualification of Labour councillor Jacqui Gallagher who failed to attend any meetings of the council in six months. She had served since 2015.

wtf?

rjsterry

Just seen that Tristram Hunt is stepping down as an MP, triggering a by-election. UKIP were second with Conservatives just behind in 2015. Will be interesting.

Stevo_666

meursault wrote:

briantrumpet wrote:

Interesting - this one has just gone to the Libdems: http://election-data.co.uk/andrews-prev ... s-12-01-17

Sandhill (Sunderland) result:
LDEM: 45.0% (+41.5)
LAB: 25.0% (-29.9)
UKIP: 18.7% (-7.2)
CON: 10.0% (-5.7)
GRN: 1.3% (+1.3)

Sunderland city council, Tyne and Wear; caused by the disqualification of Labour councillor Jacqui Gallagher who failed to attend any meetings of the council in six months. She had served since 2015.

wtf?

Saw something similar in the North East a few years ago at a parliamentary level. Redcar (my home home town) used to be the sort of classic old Labour place - Northern heavy industry etc. Labour picked up the blame when one of the steel plant closed and it went Lib Dem with a huge swing, when everyone thought they would vote for a hatstand if it had a red rosette on it. Clearly not these days, which kind of illustrates the point that Labour is no longer default choice of people who are 'working class'.

surrey_commuter

rjsterry wrote:

Just seen that Tristram Hunt is stepping down as an MP, triggering a by-election. UKIP were second with Conservatives just behind in 2015. Will be interesting.

as his constituency is in Stoke I am guessing that it is a strong OUT area so could be tea and medals for UKIP

meursault

Stevo 666 wrote:

meursault wrote:

briantrumpet wrote:

Interesting - this one has just gone to the Libdems: http://election-data.co.uk/andrews-prev ... s-12-01-17

Sandhill (Sunderland) result:
LDEM: 45.0% (+41.5)
LAB: 25.0% (-29.9)
UKIP: 18.7% (-7.2)
CON: 10.0% (-5.7)
GRN: 1.3% (+1.3)

Sunderland city council, Tyne and Wear; caused by the disqualification of Labour councillor Jacqui Gallagher who failed to attend any meetings of the council in six months. She had served since 2015.

wtf?

Saw something similar in the North East a few years ago at a parliamentary level. Redcar (my home home town) used to be the sort of classic old Labour place - Northern heavy industry etc. Labour picked up the blame when one of the steel plant closed and it went Lib Dem with a huge swing, when everyone thought they would vote for a hatstand if it had a red rosette on it. Clearly not these days, which kind of illustrates the point that Labour is no longer default choice of people who are 'working class'.

That could well be the case. But I would argue the 'damage' has been done by New Labour. As I have already alluded too, but not sure what value there is going over the same ground.

I am a bit fatigued debating the merits or not of Marxism, as I have had the argument so many times, on so many message boards. But happy to answer questions to the best of my (patchy) knowledge.

rick_chasey

meursault wrote:

That could well be the case. But I would argue the 'damage' has been done by New Labour. As I have already alluded too, but not sure what value there is going over the same ground.

.

What, by being in power for 14 years?

Stevo_666

meursault wrote:

I am a bit fatigued debating the merits or not of Marxism, as I have had the argument so many times, on so many message boards. But happy to answer questions to the best of my (patchy) knowledge.

Fair point, it's never going to be policy of any UK government in the foreseeable so we can move on if you want

meursault

Rick Chasey wrote:

meursault wrote:

That could well be the case. But I would argue the 'damage' has been done by New Labour. As I have already alluded too, but not sure what value there is going over the same ground.

.

What, by being in power for 14 years?

Yes, but power for who? The masses have become aware they are not being represented. But, like I say, don't want to keep saying it.

meursault

Stevo 666 wrote:

meursault wrote:

I am a bit fatigued debating the merits or not of Marxism, as I have had the argument so many times, on so many message boards. But happy to answer questions to the best of my (patchy) knowledge.

Fair point, it's never going to be policy of any UK government in the foreseeable so we can move on if you want

Indeed, it's only if the workers decide to take power, will it happen.

Stevo_666

meursault wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

meursault wrote:

I am a bit fatigued debating the merits or not of Marxism, as I have had the argument so many times, on so many message boards. But happy to answer questions to the best of my (patchy) knowledge.

Fair point, it's never going to be policy of any UK government in the foreseeable so we can move on if you want

Indeed, it's only if the workers decide to take power, will it happen.

Before the next ice age?

We've been waiting a few hundred years and it's not looking likely any time soon.

Stevo_666

mersault, were you ever in the movies? :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOTKA0aGI0

bompington

meursault wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

meursault wrote:

I am a bit fatigued debating the merits or not of Marxism, as I have had the argument so many times, on so many message boards. But happy to answer questions to the best of my (patchy) knowledge.

Fair point, it's never going to be policy of any UK government in the foreseeable so we can move on if you want

Indeed, it's only if the workers decide to take power, will it happen.

Yet again, you completely fail to realise that there is no such thing as a homogenous group of workers with a single political viewpoint. The idea that somehow "class consciousness" is a natural and inevitable development, and that it will automatically lead to revolution, has no compelling logic behind it.
And this is especially true if you're including millionaire CEOs, football players and all in the "working class".

meursault

Stevo 666 wrote:

meursault wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

meursault wrote:

I am a bit fatigued debating the merits or not of Marxism, as I have had the argument so many times, on so many message boards. But happy to answer questions to the best of my (patchy) knowledge.

Fair point, it's never going to be policy of any UK government in the foreseeable so we can move on if you want

Indeed, it's only if the workers decide to take power, will it happen.

Before the next ice age?

We've been waiting a few hundred years and it's not looking likely any time soon.

It's actually a centenary this year. :shock:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Revolution

Slightly less than a few hundred.

meursault

Stevo 666 wrote:

mersault, were you ever in the movies? :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOTKA0aGI0

I'll have to look after work (intrigued).

meursault

bompington wrote:

meursault wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

meursault wrote:

I am a bit fatigued debating the merits or not of Marxism, as I have had the argument so many times, on so many message boards. But happy to answer questions to the best of my (patchy) knowledge.

Fair point, it's never going to be policy of any UK government in the foreseeable so we can move on if you want

Indeed, it's only if the workers decide to take power, will it happen.

Yet again, you completely fail to realise that there is no such thing as a homogenous group of workers with a single political viewpoint. The idea that somehow "class consciousness" is a natural and inevitable development, and that it will automatically lead to revolution, has no compelling logic behind it.
And this is especially true if you're including millionaire CEOs, football players and all in the "working class".

Class Consciousness - A Collective Whole
Marx saw the exploitation of the working class as a catalyst for change. He felt that the capitalistic system of the time could and should be destroyed, and Marx called for a revolution by the working-class members. However, before the revolution could occur, Marx felt that the working class first needed to develop what is known as class consciousness. This is a subjective awareness of common vested interests and the need for collective political action to bring about social change. Simply put, the workers needed to see themselves as one unit and, together, could revolt and change their working conditions.

http://study.com/academy/lesson/karl-ma ... sness.html

Do footballers and CEO's make up the majority of the population? It's all about THE MASSES.

Stevo_666

meursault wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

meursault wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

meursault wrote:

I am a bit fatigued debating the merits or not of Marxism, as I have had the argument so many times, on so many message boards. But happy to answer questions to the best of my (patchy) knowledge.

Fair point, it's never going to be policy of any UK government in the foreseeable so we can move on if you want

Indeed, it's only if the workers decide to take power, will it happen.

Before the next ice age?

We've been waiting a few hundred years and it's not looking likely any time soon.

It's actually a centenary this year. :shock:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Revolution

Slightly less than a few hundred.

Overthrowing an early 20th century version of a dictatorship isn't exactly the same as overthrowing a western democracy/global capitalism etc.

Good point though, it is the 100th anniversary of the Russian revolution

meursault

Russia pre revolution was widely regarded as a new capitalist country. At least, one reason for the revolution to happen there, was how new the working class was, emerging out of feudalism. Other reasons and conditions of course. resolution this year to read Trotsky's account (Main version) of the history of it. Quite an opus.

Also, Lenin and Trotsky both said, it was doomed to fail without a global spread.

rjsterry

meursault wrote:

bompington wrote:

meursault wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

meursault wrote:

I am a bit fatigued debating the merits or not of Marxism, as I have had the argument so many times, on so many message boards. But happy to answer questions to the best of my (patchy) knowledge.

Fair point, it's never going to be policy of any UK government in the foreseeable so we can move on if you want

Indeed, it's only if the workers decide to take power, will it happen.

Yet again, you completely fail to realise that there is no such thing as a homogenous group of workers with a single political viewpoint. The idea that somehow "class consciousness" is a natural and inevitable development, and that it will automatically lead to revolution, has no compelling logic behind it.
And this is especially true if you're including millionaire CEOs, football players and all in the "working class".

Class Consciousness - A Collective Whole
Marx saw the exploitation of the working class as a catalyst for change. He felt that the capitalistic system of the time could and should be destroyed, and Marx called for a revolution by the working-class members. However, before the revolution could occur, Marx felt that the working class first needed to develop what is known as class consciousness. This is a subjective awareness of common vested interests and the need for collective political action to bring about social change. Simply put, the workers needed to see themselves as one unit and, together, could revolt and change their working conditions.

http://study.com/academy/lesson/karl-ma ... sness.html

Do footballers and CEO's make up the majority of the population? It's all about THE MASSES.

Hang on, you said it was all about one's relationship to the means of production, not just population numbers. Marx's definition of the working classes may well be relevant to mid-19th century Europe, but these days the working class doesn't neatly correlate with The Masses (whoever that is). There are lots of economic models, but they are only ever approximations of the the mess that is real life, with greater or lesser degrees of accuracy.

rjsterry

Just done some Googling: of 31million people employed, there are currently 4.6million who are self employed or about 15%. A rather large minority, and this would suggest that whether you are employed or own your own business is no longer a good indicator of your position in society.

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

rick_chasey

(made the one myself )

Stevo_666

Have a go at this one then:

Stevo_666

Or this

Stevo_666

Or this?

rick_chasey

I kinda meant more how awful Soho is to eat out in.

I don't live in a communist country so I'll be f*cked if I'm gonna queue for food.

Just reminded me of it.

rick_chasey

Having said that, Venezuela has food queues and shortages and that's capitalist too.

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

I kinda meant more how awful Soho is to eat out in.

I don't live in a communist country so I'll be f*cked if I'm gonna queue for food.

Just reminded me of it.

True, wouldn't even try these days apart from maybe at lunchtime.