Join the Labour Party and save your country!

joelsim

Stevo 666 wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Again the irony with Joel reduced to name calling and he considering others 'dullards'

If anything, going to bed at this time on a Saturday night is pretty dull

Did I say I was going to bed? I have a bottle of Fleurie, some music on the hifi, although I do have to be up early to feed a load of mogs before a big Xmas lunch followed by a DJ set by a friend at some ice bar near Tower Bridge.

Maybe your definition of 'night all' isn't the one most of us have. A bit like fascism

Night all could also mean I was off to do something more constructive.

But what's actually more constructive than trying to save pain for millions of people?

Stevo_666

Don't forget your cape.

joelsim

Stevo 666 wrote:

Don't forget your cape.

Don't need one fella, Brexiteers are losing more support by the minute.

ballysmate

Joelsim wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Don't forget your cape.

Don't need one fella, Brexiteers are losing more support by the minute.

Maybe, maybe not. But academic really. The acid test was last June. No serious politician has said they won't endorse the referendum result. In fact Parliament passed a resolution this week agreeing to trigger A50 by March.

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

JS - I asked you to show me a link that was in line with your made up definition of fascism and I got nothing of the sort. Just a load of words about fascism.

Mamba - are you trying say that the Tories are fascist based on cuts to benefits which were in their manifesto?

The hysteria competition is in full flow

mmm i havent used the word fascist, they are a far right government, their policies are to the right of MT but all that has happened is the political ground has shifted to the right, making TM seem almost centralist.

So cuts to benefits that mean 1000's of families are deported out of the capitols suburbs and thats ok because it was in their fcuking manifesto..... says it all.

the only thing that is hysterical is you and your failure to even broke mild disapproval of anything Tory, you even defended DC fcuking a dead pig lol!

Far right is nearly as hysterical and I think you will find a few other comments on here to that effect. Odd as well because only recently you were complaining about those that dont contribute and yet here yoh are slamming them for rebalancing contribution and reward...was this the mamba Tory alter ego we saw a little while back?

joelsim

Ballysmate wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Don't forget your cape.

Don't need one fella, Brexiteers are losing more support by the minute.

Maybe, maybe not. But academic really. The acid test was last June. No serious politician has said they won't endorse the referendum result. In fact Parliament passed a resolution this week agreeing to trigger A50 by March.

But if A50 is revocable and the public are educated over the next 2 1/2 years as to how much they stand to lose, then there will of course be a revocation. A recent poll suggests even 39% of kippers won't accept a Brexit which costs them any money at all.

This whole disaster isn't the right answer to the problems, it's not even the right question!

I fail to see how making everyone poorer is going to rebalance anything.

Stevo_666

Joelsim wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Don't forget your cape.

Don't need one fella, Brexiteers are losing more support by the minute.

Maybe, maybe not. But academic really. The acid test was last June. No serious politician has said they won't endorse the referendum result. In fact Parliament passed a resolution this week agreeing to trigger A50 by March.

But if A50 is revocable and the public are educated over the next 2 1/2 years as to how much they stand to lose, then there will of course be a revocation. A recent poll suggests even 39% of kippers won't accept a Brexit which costs them any money at all.

This whole disaster isn't the right answer to the problems, it's not even the right question!

I fail to see how making everyone poorer is going to rebalance anything.

There another thread covering this issue I think

joelsim

Stevo 666 wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Don't forget your cape.

Don't need one fella, Brexiteers are losing more support by the minute.

Maybe, maybe not. But academic really. The acid test was last June. No serious politician has said they won't endorse the referendum result. In fact Parliament passed a resolution this week agreeing to trigger A50 by March.

But if A50 is revocable and the public are educated over the next 2 1/2 years as to how much they stand to lose, then there will of course be a revocation. A recent poll suggests even 39% of kippers won't accept a Brexit which costs them any money at all.

This whole disaster isn't the right answer to the problems, it's not even the right question!

I fail to see how making everyone poorer is going to rebalance anything.

There another thread covering this issue I think

They're interlinked now as Labour are too scared to speak out for whatever reason, and that's showing in the polls and in the actual votes we've seen in by elections recently. Maybe they will find a use for Milliband's headstone in the near future.

briantrumpet

It's amusing to read this article and to see one of the comments below refer to Tony Blair et al referred to as the 'Hard Right'. Calling Labour a 'party' these days is stretching that singular concept a bit far...

Stevo_666

Maybe Labour simply respect a democratic decision, whether it is for better or for worse. How ironic that of the two parties that seem not to respect this decision, one wants to leave the UK and the other one has the word 'Democrats' in their name.

wallace_and_gromit

Joelsim wrote:

<<Lots of arrogant sh*te about how I'm so much better than the thickos who voted to leave>>

As a remain voter I probably broadly share your views about the economic merits of leaving the EU. However, you're such an arrogant and obnoxious fool (edited by Bike Radar from something stronger) in pretty much every one of your posts that I genuinely want you to suffer economically as a result of leaving the EU. And if some physical suffering could be included for you as well then I wouldn't be unhappy.

Stevo_666

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

<<Lots of arrogant sh*te about how I'm so much better than the thickos who voted to leave>>

As a remain voter I probably broadly share your views about the economic merits of leaving the EU. However, you're such an arrogant and obnoxious fool (edited by Bike Radar from something stronger) in pretty much every one of your posts that I genuinely want you to suffer economically as a result of leaving the EU. And if some physical suffering could be included for you as well then I wouldn't be unhappy.

It does have be said that JS doesn't do a very good job of selling his point of view Especially the persistent confusion between his opinion and fact and between forecast and fact.

Trouble is, if your wish comes true he will get the t-shirt printed with 'I told you so' on it.

joelsim

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

<<Lots of arrogant sh*te about how I'm so much better than the thickos who voted to leave>>

As a remain voter I probably broadly share your views about the economic merits of leaving the EU. However, you're such an arrogant and obnoxious fool (edited by Bike Radar from something stronger) in pretty much every one of your posts that I genuinely want you to suffer economically as a result of leaving the EU. And if some physical suffering could be included for you as well then I wouldn't be unhappy.

We will all suffer economically from leaving the EU. As a parent I owe it to my kids to rail against a vote taken by people who didn't consider any of the implications of their vote especially if it was based on nationalism and division. After all it'll be them who have far less opportunity than we had, live in a poorer nation socially and economically and face the burden of hundreds of billions of additional debt that will need paying off.

And what for? So some nationalists can express their abhorrent views?

Stevo_666

Joelsim wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

<<Lots of arrogant sh*te about how I'm so much better than the thickos who voted to leave>>

As a remain voter I probably broadly share your views about the economic merits of leaving the EU. However, you're such an arrogant and obnoxious fool (edited by Bike Radar from something stronger) in pretty much every one of your posts that I genuinely want you to suffer economically as a result of leaving the EU. And if some physical suffering could be included for you as well then I wouldn't be unhappy.

We will all suffer economically from leaving the EU. As a parent I owe it to my kids to rail against a vote taken by people who didn't consider any of the implications of their vote especially if it was based on nationalism and division. After all it'll be them who have far less opportunity than we had, live in a poorer nation socially and economically and face the burden of hundreds of billions of additional debt that will need paying off.

And what for? So some nationalists can express their abhorrent views?

I think you may simply affirming W&G's views

rick_chasey

Maybe we're in transition towards a new type of class politics.

One where the parties more reflect the socio-economic status of their voters.

Rather like the referendum did, broadly speaking.

joelsim

Stevo 666 wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

<<Lots of arrogant sh*te about how I'm so much better than the thickos who voted to leave>>

As a remain voter I probably broadly share your views about the economic merits of leaving the EU. However, you're such an arrogant and obnoxious fool (edited by Bike Radar from something stronger) in pretty much every one of your posts that I genuinely want you to suffer economically as a result of leaving the EU. And if some physical suffering could be included for you as well then I wouldn't be unhappy.

We will all suffer economically from leaving the EU. As a parent I owe it to my kids to rail against a vote taken by people who didn't consider any of the implications of their vote especially if it was based on nationalism and division. After all it'll be them who have far less opportunity than we had, live in a poorer nation socially and economically and face the burden of hundreds of billions of additional debt that will need paying off.

And what for? So some nationalists can express their abhorrent views?

I think you may simply affirming W&G's views

Well if being an anti-racist and concerned about the welfare of the poorest members of UK society and the future generations who aren't born into wealth is a bad thing then I'm proud to be affirming whoever's views.

Stevo_666

Not that. But yet again you refer to your opinions and forecasts as fact and write off those who voted to leave as nationalists with abhorrent views who didn't consider the implications. It's that sort of 'I'm always right about the future' and sweeping generalisations about the other side that I believe Wallace and Gromit was referring to in his post above. Both he and I voted remain btw.

And it is that sort of attitude to people with different views is prevalent on here and which I believe led many people to vote leave. A sort of 'well sod you' type of protest vote that I have heard some leavers cite as a reason for their decision.

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Maybe we're in transition towards a new type of class politics.

One where the parties more reflect the socio-economic status of their voters.

Rather like the referendum did, broadly speaking.

Rick, genuine question - how is that a new type of class politics when broadly the Tory and Labour parties traditionally represented that socio-economic status before now?

mrfpb

I don't get that Brexit dooms the country to long term far right politics as JS is suggesting. Are we not going to have general elections anymore?

We voted in this government based on their manifesto which included welfare cuts and an in/out referendum. We are quite likely to have a general election hot on the heels of the end of A.50 negotiations, if not before the end if they drag on. Given that we will have freedom to set our own equality laws, workers protection and business laws post Brexit, we will be able to vote for the party that suits our views on this rather than relying on the our influence in the EU.

Stevo_666

mrfpb wrote:

I don't get that Brexit dooms the country to long term far right politics as JS is suggesting. Are we not going to have general elections anymore?

We voted in this government based on their manifesto which included welfare cuts and an in/out referendum. We are quite likely to have a general election hot on the heels of the end of A.50 negotiations, if not before the end if they drag on. Given that we will have freedom to set our own equality laws, workers protection and business laws post Brexit, we will be able to vote for the party that suits our views on this rather than relying on the our influence in the EU.

Me neither.

Many on here claim that the Tories will make themselves very unpopular due to their current course of action, so logically if that is the case they think we will end up with some left/centre left/SNP coalition

mamba80

Stevo 666 wrote:

Not that. But yet again you refer to your opinions and forecasts as fact and write off those who voted to leave as nationalists with abhorrent views who didn't consider the implications. It's that sort of 'I'm always right about the future' and sweeping generalisations about the other side that I believe Wallace and Gromit was referring to in his post above. Both he and I voted remain btw.

And it is that sort of attitude to people with different views is prevalent on here and which I believe led many people to vote leave. A sort of 'well sod you' type of protest vote that I have heard some leavers cite as a reason for their decision.

Steve, if people voted like this and they appear to have done so, then JS is right, anyone who voted on this decision, with so little thought, is a an idiot.
i ve friends who voted OUT, a few thought long and hard about the decision and came to a different conclusion than you or i and i respect their views but in the main, most people i know who voted out, did so based purely on immigration, in an area with low levels of migration.....

i think wishing ill on someone is pathetic, G&W is most likely a regrexit voter with that attitude.

Stevo_666

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Not that. But yet again you refer to your opinions and forecasts as fact and write off those who voted to leave as nationalists with abhorrent views who didn't consider the implications. It's that sort of 'I'm always right about the future' and sweeping generalisations about the other side that I believe Wallace and Gromit was referring to in his post above. Both he and I voted remain btw.

And it is that sort of attitude to people with different views is prevalent on here and which I believe led many people to vote leave. A sort of 'well sod you' type of protest vote that I have heard some leavers cite as a reason for their decision.

Steve, if people voted like this and they appear to have done so, then JS is right, anyone who voted on this decision, with so little thought, is a an idiot.
i ve friends who voted OUT, a few thought long and hard about the decision and came to a different conclusion than you or i and i respect their views but in the main, most people i know who voted out, did so based purely on immigration, in an area with low levels of migration.....

i think wishing ill on someone is pathetic, G&W is most likely a regrexit voter with that attitude.

It may be indeed the wrong reason but a lot of leave vote I think was a form of protest - whether against attitudes as above, or the establishment, etc.

That said there are some on here who seem to want a bad outcome for the UK so they can say 'I told you so' - effectively wishing harm on most of us. I do sometimes wonder whose side some people are on.

cycleclinic

I voted remain but we where such rubbish europeans we should pull out. This debate over the single market and where i disagree with my party thd lid dems is a non issue. We can pull out but go for common regognition of standards which gets updated as standards change. This will allow proper access to the single market but allow us to maintain immigration controls which keeps some brexitiers happy. That would keep me happy. We can then remain part of the customs union as free trade deals are not going to generate much extra trade. Most goods have low tarrifs anyway. I pay 4.7% duties on the goods i import it not a big deal.

This is what labour should be saying but there message is muddled. The lid dems and the snp message is less muddled. They dont have a clear policy but people know what they stand for. Unless labour get there act together they will suffer and lose a hundred seats at the next election. The lib dems will pick up a few the conservatives will clean up and this country will lurch to the right properly.

The whole debate is too polarised and the government does not help as they have no clue about what do either. Leave voters some of which are labour voters need to stop portraying parlimentary involvement in brexit as a way to stop brexit. Very few want to reverse the referendum. Labour mp's need to stop talking about a second referendum because what if the answer is no to the deal, then there is no deal. Is leadership and a clear vision too much to ask for referendums are an abdication of leadership. The conservatives are failing to lead, labour are in fighting, the lib dems are too small and dont have broad appeal, the snp want out of the u.k, ukip is too far to the right. The longer this mess goes on the longer it will takes to sort out our real problem the way we elect parliment, how the structure of goverment works, the constitutional mess we have, the lack of devolution in england and the fundemental problem that most people feel un represented by local governement and national government.

Labour dint have a clear policy on any of this lr anything for that matter except sideshows like nationising the railways, how that gojng to solve anythkng. This bullet cant be dodged any more.

We actually need the labour party now but they seem to intent on exiting stage left.

However one good about brexit the english languague has got a whole pile of new verbs.

mamba80

Stevo 666 wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Not that. But yet again you refer to your opinions and forecasts as fact and write off those who voted to leave as nationalists with abhorrent views who didn't consider the implications. It's that sort of 'I'm always right about the future' and sweeping generalisations about the other side that I believe Wallace and Gromit was referring to in his post above. Both he and I voted remain btw.

And it is that sort of attitude to people with different views is prevalent on here and which I believe led many people to vote leave. A sort of 'well sod you' type of protest vote that I have heard some leavers cite as a reason for their decision.

Steve, if people voted like this and they appear to have done so, then JS is right, anyone who voted on this decision, with so little thought, is a an idiot.
i ve friends who voted OUT, a few thought long and hard about the decision and came to a different conclusion than you or i and i respect their views but in the main, most people i know who voted out, did so based purely on immigration, in an area with low levels of migration.....

i think wishing ill on someone is pathetic, G&W is most likely a regrexit voter with that attitude.

It may be indeed the wrong reason but a lot of leave vote I think was a form of protest - whether against attitudes as above, or the establishment, etc.

That said there are some on here who seem to want a bad outcome for the UK so they can say 'I told you so' - effectively wishing harm on most of us. I do sometimes wonder whose side some people are on.

for me, its not about wishing harm on the UK eco, that includes me!!

its that we joined in the 70's a basket case of an economy and somehow or other over the years, we ve grown to, at one stage the world 4th richest, despite having a labour Gov in pwr for alot of those years!
turning our back on the EU, seems full of risk, on so many levels, uk says we ll forge new trade links/deals, i say that the EU will also be seeking these opportunities and by enlarge they ve a far bigger manufacturing economy, everyone and his dog wants more trade with emerging economies, its not as easy as Coopster, Mrphb & ukiboy make out.

i would still take an outside punt on we wont even leave! then again, i also think Labour will win the 2020 GE, thats looking a shaky bet at present but with state funding cut yet again by the Tories for hospice care, St Lukes will need my money lol!

tangled_metal

"mamba80 wrote:

I think wishing ill on someone is pathetic, G&W is most likely a regrexit voter with that attitude.

I believe G&W said he voted remain so I guess that means he's not regretting his vote but that of the higher percentage of voters who voted for EU exit.

As far as wishing ill on someone goes I'm not for that, but JS has been spouting his usual BS regarding people who voted for exit. I very much doubt he knows.for sure why 52% voted for it (that's the percentage of those who actually bothered to vote). I know I have no idea, not spoken to them all you see, but the reasons I got at work varied greatly. Some sounded very racist but a lot expressed no racist views. They had no issue with migrants from EU indeed being friends with their Polish colleagues they'd be hypocrites if they did.

In light of the comments about Brexit supporters made by JS I do wish he'd shut the **** up. Keep your prejudice to yourself.

BTW I'm a remain voter who's never got over the idiocy of this referendum. I accept it as the state of play we're in and now try to look for the best we can get out of this situation. The attitude of JS isn't helpful. No point blaming and pointing the finger or abusing people who didn't agree with your POV. Gets nowhere positive.

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Maybe we're in transition towards a new type of class politics.

One where the parties more reflect the socio-economic status of their voters.

Rather like the referendum did, broadly speaking.

Rick, genuine question - how is that a new type of class politics when broadly the Tory and Labour parties traditionally represented that socio-economic status before now?

Because I don't think Labour does any more.

The values Labour has do not correlate with those typical of those in the bottom half socio-economic stratum.

The vast majority of workers are not unionised, and even if they are, the power unions have are quite weak.

Instead, Labour has pursued a traditional continental 'social-democrat' agenda, which is fundamentally socially liberal, but with a focus on growing the state to essentially transfer wealth from the top to the bottom i.e. big welfare state, big state spending in deprived areas etc.

That falls between two stalls.

Those who tend to be in the lower half socio-economically I reckon tend to be socially right rather than left (anti-immigration, authoritarian, don't like people living off hand outs, anti internationalism, wanting the world to be the 'way it was' i.e. conservative (small c)), which isn't labour, but neither are those at the upper end, who tend to be anti-regulation, pro-business, and tend toward less state intervention rather than more.

briantrumpet

Rick Chasey wrote:

Those who tend to be in the lower half socio-economically I reckon tend to be socially right rather than left (anti-immigration, authoritarian, don't like people living off hand outs, anti internationalism, wanting the world to be the 'way it was' i.e. conservative (small c)), which isn't labour, but neither are those at the upper end, who tend to be anti-regulation, pro-business, and tend toward less state intervention rather than more.

I think that's spot on - and similar in the US with Trump. That Farage and Trump can court those with so little (as well as those who dislike the 'liberal consensus'), despite the likelihood that their politics will shaft them even more, is one reason why we're in this odd place now.

ballysmate

That's it Diane. Keep the faith.
It's all Jeremy's enemies in the party and commentators fault that Labour are sinking like a stone.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ane-abbott

mamba80

Ballysmate wrote:

That's it Diane. Keep the faith.
It's all Jeremy's enemies in the party and commentators fault that Labour are sinking like a stone.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ane-abbott

Here Bally, the press and TV have not really covered this Labour view at all, instead we ev a May plan to raise CT, so only some of us will be paying this and of course it will depend where you live at to the amounts raised.

http://labourlist.org/2016/10/labour-mp ... re-crisis/

Abbot has a point but her main ire was toward the labour MPs who continually are more interested in attacking Corbyn instead of the government.

Stevo_666

I see the rail unions are persisting with wall to wall strikes on the Southern network this month over the massive issue of who closes the doors on the trains. Wonder how much longer this will last and whether the law will be changed - given that patience seems to be running out?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38296623