Join the Labour Party and save your country!

178101213469

Comments

  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Following weeks of attacks from the Tory press, Jeremy Corbyn is the most popular of the candidates for Labour leadership among Labour, Lib Dem and UKIP voters.
    He's definitely the most popular among Tory voters :D
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    The one thing you have to admire in lefties is their wonderful sense of humour.
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    The one thing you have to admire in lefties is their wonderful sense of humour.

    I recognised that you were attempting humour.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,172
    The one thing you have to admire in lefties is their wonderful sense of humour.

    I recognised that you were attempting humour.
    Us Tories won't need to attempt humour on 12th September. We'll be laughing our ar$es off :wink:
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    The one thing you have to admire in lefties is their wonderful sense of humour.

    I recognised that you were attempting humour.
    Us Tories won't need to attempt humour on 12th September. We'll be laughing our ar$es off :wink:

    So what'll you do if the economy crashes and burns and people start looking for an alternative to the status quo? Jeremy Corbyn is now talking about more support for small businesses and entrepreneurs and greater investment in training. That's the sort of talk that can attract people from the centre of politics. That's what I keep saying about waiting until he actually comes up with a manifesto and seeing what sort of state the country is in when the 2020 election comes around before telling us all how nobody's going to vote for him.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,172
    The one thing you have to admire in lefties is their wonderful sense of humour.

    I recognised that you were attempting humour.
    Us Tories won't need to attempt humour on 12th September. We'll be laughing our ar$es off :wink:

    So what'll you do if the economy crashes and burns and people start looking for an alternative to the status quo? Jeremy Corbyn is now talking about more support for small businesses and entrepreneurs and greater investment in training. That's the sort of talk that can attract people from the centre of politics. That's what I keep saying about waiting until he actually comes up with a manifesto and seeing what sort of state the country is in when the 2020 election comes around before telling us all how nobody's going to vote for him.
    Seriously, stop kidding yourself. Policy issues aside, Corbyn is not leadership material and highly divisive within the Labour movement. Labour will implode if he takes power.

    Even If the economy did 'crash and burn' why do you think the electorate would seek refuge in the hard left. It hasn't happened before and people are intelligent enough to realise that socialism is not the answer - otherwise a socialist government might have won in living memory.

    The whole underlying point of this thread is that parties at the extreme ends of political spectrum do not win UK general elections. And Labour are about to experience this the hard way again - I won't say 'learn' because they don't appear capable of doing that.

    Any time you fancy putting your money where your mouth is, I am here. Just a pity I never offered a wager to a certain person who predicted on this thread that Corbyn would never win :wink:
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Corbyn is quite unique in modern politics, he doesn't mud sling at his fellow candidates he just says these are the policies I believe in; either vote for me or not.

    I believe the gang of three are all me,myself,I.

    JC may win and may get kicked to the curb in a GE.

    I profess 20years down the line the masses will be in the same shit as they were in the 1930s but with a lot more debt.

    I just hope if JC were to win, in five years time the tories will have pissed off/dis-enfranchised another five years worth of young people and five years worth of pensioners will be dead and the balance may well start to shift.
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Seriously, stop kidding yourself. Policy issues aside, Corbyn is not leadership material and highly divisive within the Labour movement. Labour will implode if he takes power.

    Again, we'd have to see how he performs if he got the job. He's already trying to build bridges with other wings of the party. Personally, I think that at his age, he's probably too old and might find that leadership is more exhausting than he thinks. I also think that the newspapers will kick and kick and kick him again for the next 5 years and eventually enough damage will be done.
    Even If the economy did 'crash and burn' why do you think the electorate would seek refuge in the hard left. It hasn't happened before and people are intelligent enough to realise that socialism is not the answer - otherwise a socialist government might have won in living memory.

    What you call the hard left (so far his most radical proposals seem to be rent controls, the abolition of tuition fees and the nationalisation of utilities - not exactly the Communist Manifesto) would just be considered consensus politics in most of Europe. And they aren't exactly 3rd world nations. And by the way, Britain has never, ever been a socialist country. Having a few nationalised industries =/= a socialist economy.
    The whole underlying point of this thread is that parties at the extreme ends of political spectrum do not win UK general elections. And Labour are about to experience this the hard way again - I won't say 'learn' because they don't appear capable of doing that.

    What are Jeremy Corbyn's policies for the 2020 election and which ones are the ones that British people will find too extreme?
    Any time you fancy putting your money where your mouth is, I am here. Just a pity I never offered a wager to a certain person who predicted on this thread that Corbyn would never win :wink:

    I don't bother with gambling. There are plenty of bookmakers if you want to place a bet.
  • The tories are moving ever more right, if labour stayed where they are it would be perceived as left.

    We'll see what the electorate think in another five years aye.
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,599
    The whole underlying point of this thread is that parties at the extreme ends of political spectrum do not win UK general elections.
    I would say that the Conservatives are currently more extreme right wing than they campaigned on, and moving further......
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,249
    The tories are moving ever more right, if labour stayed where they are it would be perceived as left.

    We'll see what the electorate think in another five years aye.

    Labour is mired in a much deeper existential crisis than people realise.

    Corbyn mania is merely a symptom of a deeper problem.

    I don't expect a left or leftish party to be winning before 2020.

    You've essentially got 3 types of leftism within the party pulling it apart. Blairites, Social Democrats and Socialists. Increasingly seems like you can't please them all.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,348
    Good points Rick. Neither of us are left wing voters but when the Labour party appeared to put internal politics or "electability" above voting against large cuts in welfare then they lit the fuse on...eugh...CorbynMania. They could have all voted against and lost anyway so all they achieved was to take a kicking from the tories and somehow made the SNP look even better than they already do.

    If you re the left wing party and you don't vote against Welfare cuts then what is the point of you
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,921
    The tories are moving ever more right, if labour stayed where they are it would be perceived as left.

    We'll see what the electorate think in another five years aye.

    I don't see the present government as particularly right wing, but there you go. :wink:
    Labour IS perceived as left, as demonstrated by electing Miliband, God bless him, as leader. The country rejected it, even having suffered what the left like calling 'Savage cuts' Do you honestly think they would be more electable under Corbyn and lurching further left?
  • The tories are moving ever more right, if labour stayed where they are it would be perceived as left.

    We'll see what the electorate think in another five years aye.

    I don't see the present government as particularly right wing, but there you go. :wink:
    Labour IS perceived as left, as demonstrated by electing Miliband, God bless him, as leader. The country rejected it, even having suffered what the left like calling 'Savage cuts' Do you honestly think they would be more electable under Corbyn and lurching further left?
    I think you know the answer to that my owd.

    At the risk of sounding like a cracked record I didn't look on Milliband as particularly left. This will be music to your ears, while I would love to see a socialist government lead by Corbyn The important thing for me is that I have a chance to vote for a socialist party with socialist policies, if they lose so be it at least I had a choice.Labour under Blair were not true to the labour party origins IMHO.

    You know my vision of the future going down the current path, it is only a matter of time.

    Do I think that a labour party led by Corbyn is more electable? To ME yes, the man is a man of principle and I'd sooner vote for a signpost than a weather vane. Whether the electorate agree we'll possibly see in2020 after all JC isn't labour leader yet and may never be.
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Labour lost under Brown, again under Milliband, neither hardly left wing firebrands, so that being the case, how is electing another centralist leader going to change their fortune?
    I love it when people say "the country rejected, a socialist Government" no they didn't, 36% did, that's a fact, not complaining about the FPTP system but it is very stupid for Governing parties of any persuasion to ignore 64% of the population.
    As for Britain being house owning democracy, maybe for my generation that was the case but with the avg uk house price of £200k plus, that's a thing of the past - even my 15yo realises that owning her own house is going to be almost impossible - dyed in the wool Tory voters also know that for their kids, having a house is going to rely on them dying suddenly and not having their house pay for age related healthcare.

    As I said to Stevo, be careful what you wish for.
  • The media will hammer JC if he were to win.

    I place my faith in the 1/3 of voters who didn't vote last time. Labour will lose some votes if JC were leader,however I think they will gain more supporters than they lose from the non-committal 1/3.

    If you listen to him the man has not a malicious bone in his body he is quite accepting of whatever might come his way.
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,199
    The media will hammer JC if he were to win.

    I place my faith in the 1/3 of voters who didn't vote last time. Labour will lose some votes if JC were leader,however I think they will gain more supporters than they lose from the non-committal 1/3.

    If you listen to him the man has not a malicious bone in his body he is quite accepting of whatever might come his way.

    He doesn't take snide swipes at his opponents.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • The media will hammer JC if he were to win.

    I place my faith in the 1/3 of voters who didn't vote last time. Labour will lose some votes if JC were leader,however I think they will gain more supporters than they lose from the non-committal 1/3.

    If you listen to him the man has not a malicious bone in his body he is quite accepting of whatever might come his way.

    He doesn't take snide swipes at his opponents.
    Exactly. he believes that politics should be about policy not personalities and how you look on tv and all that tosh. Basically, substance over style.
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,348
    The media will hammer JC if he were to win.

    I place my faith in the 1/3 of voters who didn't vote last time. Labour will lose some votes if JC were leader,however I think they will gain more supporters than they lose from the non-committal 1/3.

    If you listen to him the man has not a malicious bone in his body he is quite accepting of whatever might come his way.

    He doesn't take snide swipes at his opponents.
    Exactly. he believes that politics should be about policy not personalities and how you look on tv and all that tosh. Basically, substance over style.

    But that's no longer true it it. And hasnt been since (at least) 1998. Dave and Gideon are in power because they made Ed and Ed look like bumbling fools and, very cleverly, out-played Nick Clegg

    I reckon the bigest benefactor of a Corbyn led Labour party will actually the Lib Dems who can slip neatly into the hole Labour will leave as they go left (if they select a leader who can play the bullsh1t game that is UK politics these days)
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,220
    The media will hammer JC if he were to win.

    I place my faith in the 1/3 of voters who didn't vote last time. Labour will lose some votes if JC were leader,however I think they will gain more supporters than they lose from the non-committal 1/3.

    If you listen to him the man has not a malicious bone in his body he is quite accepting of whatever might come his way.

    He doesn't take snide swipes at his opponents.

    Seems to be the case, he looks like one of those rare politicians on all sides that I admire. You don't have to agree with them but you respect them for having a political view and sticking with it. Obviously that's how politics should be but in the real world most voters aren't so black and white and you have no chance of your policies getting anywhere if you don't get elected.

    If politics reflected everyone's views we'd have loads of smaller parties and coalition Goverment, when you are dominated by two large parties then slightly different shades of grey is what is required.
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    It's funny the quote about percentage not voting for Tories. What is the relevance please? 36.9% Tories, 30.4% Labour, 12.6% UKIP, 7.9% LD, 4.7% SNP, 3.8% greens.

    This means 63.1% did not vote for Tories but there is a higher percentage didn't vote for the others. Just inverting the percentage vote share for a party to make a larger figure doesn't change the fact Tories got the highest vote share and concentrated it enough to win in the current FPTP system. If you want to build coalitions the Tories would gain in a right of centre coalition I think.

    If you want to complain about voting system then UKIP would have more MPs in PR system, more than the left of centre SNP.

    Back to Corbyn, I don't see him as left wing or socialist he's left of centre, left of new Labour. What he's been throughout his whole parliamentary life is against... what I mean is he's known for.voting against policies of his and other parties not been big on his own ideas I think but he's not having a to find policies quickly to win. How many will even be workable? I suspect he's.still in an opposition mindset coming up with unworkable ideas because he's not planning on leading Labour into government. Personally the policies like privatisation, ditch Trident, etc are classic signs of this. I'm hoping he leads Labour, also lasts for to 2020 and is allowed to come up with his own policies, not a Labour machine set of policies. It'll be fun but ultimately a waste of Labour party time. You want it, vote for it if allowed, get him into the leader role then let's see what.happens.

    P.S. I don't know think Tories are as bad.for the country like lefties. Makes me right wing right? I'm a working masses type a wage slave and not well paid for my efforts for my employer. I'm still aspirant in outlook. To me Labour lost their appeal because IMHO they stopped looking after those who aspire to better. I feel Blair was the last Labour leader to do that and I was just the type of voter who they could win over with appeal to what has been called strivers. My preference is strivers not strikers. That means anyone but the guy the unions love and support.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,172
    Labour lost under Brown, again under Milliband, neither hardly left wing firebrands, so that being the case, how is electing another centralist leader going to change their fortune?
    I love it when people say "the country rejected, a socialist Government" no they didn't, 36% did, that's a fact, not complaining about the FPTP system but it is very stupid for Governing parties of any persuasion to ignore 64% of the population.
    As for Britain being house owning democracy, maybe for my generation that was the case but with the avg uk house price of £200k plus, that's a thing of the past - even my 15yo realises that owning her own house is going to be almost impossible - dyed in the wool Tory voters also know that for their kids, having a house is going to rely on them dying suddenly and not having their house pay for age related healthcare.

    As I said to Stevo, be careful what you wish for.
    If the country didn't reject a socialist government, why is Miliband not the prime minister? You really are in denial. In case you hadn't noticed, more people voted for the tories than any other party and Cameron is prime minister :roll:

    BTW I am being careful what I wish for, that's why I joined the Labour party :wink:
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    P.S. I don't know think Tories are as bad.for the country like lefties. Makes me right wing right? I'm a working masses type a wage slave and not well paid for my efforts for my employer. I'm still aspirant in outlook. To me Labour lost their appeal because IMHO they stopped looking after those who aspire to better.

    What, exactly, do you mean by that? Personally, I would say that if you want to help people get on in life, you've got to look at improving the education system. That really is the key, but Labour and the Tories have, IMO, made a complete mess of it between them.
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    If the country didn't reject a socialist government, why is Miliband not the prime minister?

    Because the millipede wasn't standing on a socialist platform.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,172
    If the country didn't reject a socialist government, why is Miliband not the prime minister?

    Because the millipede wasn't standing on a socialist platform.
    Could have fooled a lot of people including me. And the tories still won despite your claims that they are very bad for the country. Wonder why? Part of it was I am sure that Miliband was seen to be socialist.

    Although I am sure you won't argue that Corbyn is socialist. Even Gordon Brown has come out with a thinly veiled warning against voting Corbyn in, saying that Labour needs to be 'credible and electable'. Go figure.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,599
    Even Gordon Brown has come out with a thinly veiled warning against voting Corbyn in, saying that Labour needs to be 'credible and electable'. Go figure.
    Therein lies the problem.
    Corbyn is trying to be credible. The rest are trying to be electable.
    At least voters would know what Corbyn was standing for.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    If the country didn't reject a socialist government, why is Miliband not the prime minister? You really are in denial. In case you hadn't noticed, more people voted for the tories than any other party and Cameron is prime minister :roll:

    BTW I am being careful what I wish for, that's why I joined the Labour party :wink:

    No your not reading what i said.
    Of course the Tories won and of course won the largest section of the vote BUT to say the country voted for a tory government is rubbish.
    Cameron needs to return the tory party to one nation conservatism, his recent announcement on education isnt going to help things, our local comp is an academy and that has just been put in special measures (so whats so great about an academy then? )and our local athletics track is threatened with closure for retail development, due to cuts in central funding.

    Cameron unfortunately, talks about doing all the right things but actually does the opposite, be it on immigration, nhs or education.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,921
    The Labour party grew from the Trade Union movement in the late eighteen hundreds. As the unions become less relevant, so does Labour's traditional values and position.eg Clause IV which Blair fought had to get rid of but the likes of Corbyn would return.
    Unions do still have a place, but with more and more workers rights enshrined in law, they no longer have a grand cause that resonates with the working classes.
    Labour needs to find a new identity, looking to the future,and not appearing to be mired in the past, fighting battles and having arguments that were resolved decades ago.

    I suppose I should have posted this in Frank's union thread.
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Could have fooled a lot of people including me.

    So can you explain in what way the Labour manifesto was socialist?
    And the tories still won despite your claims that they are very bad for the country. Wonder why?

    Blair and Brown won 3 elections. Are you now going to tell us they were good for the country?

    Part of it was I am sure that Miliband was seen to be socialist.

    To be honest, I don't think that the majority of people in this country would be able to give a decent working definition of the different political ideologies. They're just words that get thrown around.
    Although I am sure you won't argue that Corbyn is socialist.

    He is a socialist. He is, however, highly unlikely to take Labour into the election promising a socialist economy.
    Even Gordon Brown has come out with a thinly veiled warning against voting Corbyn in, saying that Labour needs to be 'credible and electable'. Go figure.

    So? He has different views to Corbyn and wants someone with similar views to him to lead the party. Not exactly a shock.