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Nope, the Labour party hierarchy clearly don't read Bike Radar
Sounds like you've been rumbled.My ballot papers should be turning up soon :twisted:
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
At least you are realistic. Voters will run a mile from Corbyn style leftiebollox. Everyone with half a brain knows that. That's why I'm voting for himabout 40% of the electorate dont vote, reasons sited are "there are all the same, nothing will change" & "all in it for themselves etc"
Perhaps someone like Corbyn will energise these people to vote and vote Labour? then the right wing who maybe have tried to get Corbyn to be labour leader will regret their actions?
Sometimes there are sea changes in voting habits.
btw i dont really believe this will happen but you can live in hope ! "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I think I read that guardian has thrown it's support into Coopers campaign. That is interesting, must try to read the comments online for the article where they announced support. Their Corbyn supporting readership will have some interesting things to say I reckon.0
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Happy reading:I think I read that guardian has thrown it's support into Coopers campaign. That is interesting, must try to read the comments online for the article where they announced support. Their Corbyn supporting readership will have some interesting things to say I reckon.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/13/guardian-view-labour-leadership-choice-yvette-cooper-jeremy-corbyn
Labour civil war appears to a month away."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
At least you are realistic. Voters will run a mile from Corbyn style leftiebollox.about 40% of the electorate dont vote, reasons sited are "there are all the same, nothing will change" & "all in it for themselves etc"
Perhaps someone like Corbyn will energise these people to vote and vote Labour? then the right wing who maybe have tried to get Corbyn to be labour leader will regret their actions?
Sometimes there are sea changes in voting habits.
btw i dont really believe this will happen but you can live in hope !
Everyone with half a brain knows that. That's why I'm voting for him
but thats my point, no doubt he will turn off a lot of voters but the young, disenfranchised? folk who dont ever vote? BUT what if corbyn energises those folk to vote labour? what then?
Old chinese proverb "becareful what you wish for"
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I was listening to Liz Kendall this morning for the first time. No hoper! Vote for her and you're as dead in the water as voting for Corbyn.
That got me thinking about who in the Labour party is worth voting for if you want a strong and credible b party with principles that are also electable. I'm still thinking. So far I think Chukka Ummuna (bad spelling I know) is about half there, but the ones you can vote for are no good.
Corbyn has flaws widely discussed. Kendall is the right wing opposite for Labour and discredited as a result imo. Cooper is another wet fish of a leader who's had a bureaurocrat's career supporting Labour heavyweights without really making her own mark. Burnham? Does anyone trust him? He'll change his views along with the wind. He's whatever he thinks will help him get to the top. Worst case of career politician if you asked me.
This leads me to perhaps a new thread. Who have the Tories got if they'd lost big and v were having a leadership contest? Osborne? He's part of Cameron so if Cameron falls he does too IMHO. Unless you want a Tory Brown?!! I think Tories are better off than Labour but they're still got no shining light as a successor.
I guess if you have guys taking the top job for long enough they'll promote yes men and women leaving true competition floundering in obscurity. You don't want to help the guy who's probably going to replace you.0 -
True on the proverb but the general view and mine is that he will turn off many more than he energises to vote Labour. That's before Labour starts tearing itself apart over this, possibly with centre left splinter groups emerging as happened in the 80s with the SDP.
At least you are realistic. Voters will run a mile from Corbyn style leftiebollox.about 40% of the electorate dont vote, reasons sited are "there are all the same, nothing will change" & "all in it for themselves etc"
Perhaps someone like Corbyn will energise these people to vote and vote Labour? then the right wing who maybe have tried to get Corbyn to be labour leader will regret their actions?
Sometimes there are sea changes in voting habits.
btw i dont really believe this will happen but you can live in hope !
Everyone with half a brain knows that. That's why I'm voting for him
but thats my point, no doubt he will turn off a lot of voters but the young, disenfranchised? folk who dont ever vote? BUT what if corbyn energises those folk to vote labour? what then?
Old chinese proverb "becareful what you wish for"
Contrary to what some people like to portray, I don't think there are enough people who are so badly disenfranchised that they will vote for the hard left. This isn't Victorian Britain any more."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
There are about 43m people who can vote in the UK, approx 35% dont, thats a lot of people.
We can see what has happened in Scotland, what a charasmatic leader can do (Corbyn probably isnt the one!) but who knows what a more positive media imagine could do for him? which will happen if he becomes more popular.
the current voting majority might not like left wing parties but they are also fed up with right wing/centralist fake s as well.0 -
That's what general elections are for. The UK decisively rejected a left wing labour only 3 months ago. And a Corbyn led Labour would be way further left than that. I would be more than happy to bet a decent sum on the result of the next general election if Corbyn becomes Labour leaderThere are about 43m people who can vote in the UK, approx 35% dont, thats a lot of people.
We can see what has happened in Scotland, what a charasmatic leader can do (Corbyn probably isnt the one!) but who knows what a more positive media imagine could do for him? which will happen if he becomes more popular.
the current voting majority might not like left wing parties but they are also fed up with right wing/centralist fake s as well. "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
That's what general elections are for. The UK decisively rejected a left wing labour only 3 months ago. And a Corbyn led Labour would be way further left than that. I would be more than happy to bet a decent sum on the result of the next general election if Corbyn becomes Labour leaderThere are about 43m people who can vote in the UK, approx 35% dont, thats a lot of people.
We can see what has happened in Scotland, what a charasmatic leader can do (Corbyn probably isnt the one!) but who knows what a more positive media imagine could do for him? which will happen if he becomes more popular.
the current voting majority might not like left wing parties but they are also fed up with right wing/centralist fake s as well.
but the uk didnt really did they? our first past the post system, at first glance, would give that impression, but only about 36% voted for a right wing Gov, hardly decisive! and just in england the numbers show an even less decisive victory for the Tories, in voter numbers NOT MP's - most seats would need only a small swing to change hands, what ever the incumbent party.
Pretty much that same number didnt vote at all! what if they decide to vote? that is my point not what happened a few months ago, corbyn... whoever, have 5 years to get some of these people out of their apathetic slumber!
But dont worry i wont be matching your bet on a labour victory, whoever they elect, the SNP have shot their goose.0 -
Assuming the missing voters turn up who's to say they will all vote left turning Labour? Just as many could be right wing as left. Also, as you turn on voters you may just turn off others. The leftie missing voters come on board but the centre left defect. So pinning hopes on the voters they haven't had is a bit like crossing your fingers.
Let's face facts here. Last GE it was expected to be close with Labour being the stronger bet due to more options to form a coalition. That never happened but a tory majority (small as it was still a majority). No missing voters turning up to save labour. That is the reality of our system. First past the post and centre politics winning.
Much has been said of aspiration, call it that or call it greed all political ideologies are about winning more for those supporting you. If you are to the left of the new traditional Labour then it is unions pure and simple. If you are centrist it is middle class. Right wing you are an arsehole with slightly racist tendencies. Sorry, media image came in. Right wing is a stained thing to be (right of centre is the new right wing for those who don't want to be called racist I think). AS you can see I am no great political scientist here it is all just opinions and probably wrong.
The one thing that I think is true, no party can consider the missing voters as a game changer. If this is correct then by alienating centre left views and supporters the left wing of the Labour party will not win. The missing voters will never change that lookyhere no matter how many times you quote figures about how large a number they are.0 -
Have you considered the possibility that a large number of people don't vote because actually, they aren't in desperate straits and therefore are quite happy to continue merrily on their way, believing (probably correctly) that their own personal welfare isn't going to change that much whichever government gets in?There are about 43m people who can vote in the UK, approx 35% dont, thats a lot of people.
We can see what has happened in Scotland, what a charasmatic leader can do (Corbyn probably isnt the one!) but who knows what a more positive media imagine could do for him? which will happen if he becomes more popular.
the current voting majority might not like left wing parties but they are also fed up with right wing/centralist fake s as well.
The noisy lefty crowds for Russell Brand, Jeremy Corbyn etc manage to grab the headlines and set the agenda but really, what proportion of the contry actually support them? The only way to find out is to have a general election. Oh, wait a minute, we just did - and I can't see JC being the messiah who persuades millions to follow him. He's preaching to the converted (or at best, the young, bored, restless and naive - and even most of those aren't totally stupid). I can't see a Chavismo revolution happening in this country, however charismatic the leader - most British people tend to run a mile from charismatic leaders.
Also, please note that Scotland is a totally different case and should not be used as a guide for anywhere else in the universe - the SNP are defying the laws of political gravity in all kinds of ways, who knows for how long and to what end, but it's local issues that cause that.0 -
Assuming the missing voters turn up who's to say they will all vote left turning Labour? Just as many could be right wing as left. Also, as you turn on voters you may just turn off others. The leftie missing voters come on board but the centre left defect. So pinning hopes on the voters they haven't had is a bit like crossing your fingers.
The one thing that I think is true, no party can consider the missing voters as a game changer. If this is correct then by alienating centre left views and supporters the left wing of the Labour party will not win. The missing voters will never change that lookyhere no matter how many times you quote figures about how large a number they are.
Where did i say they would vote labour? the point i am trying but failing to make, is that for far too long, we ve had a decreasing voting electorate, a general apathy towards labour and tory parties and maybe just maybe somebody (and i also said it prob isnt Corbyn) will come along to get these people out and voting? and then who knows what we will end up with, like it or not millions of people could but dont vote or are you tangled Metal, denying that is the case?
No where did i say i was pinning my hopes on anything, i m looking at it from another POV, rather than the mainstream "Corbyns a nutter who will destroy the labour party"
even my parents, life long tories, have said "at least he speaks his mind and has some good ideas" followed by "but he ll never get in" 0 -
That's what general elections are for. The UK decisively rejected a left wing labour only 3 months ago. And a Corbyn led Labour would be way further left than that. I would be more than happy to bet a decent sum on the result of the next general election if Corbyn becomes Labour leaderThere are about 43m people who can vote in the UK, approx 35% dont, thats a lot of people.
We can see what has happened in Scotland, what a charasmatic leader can do (Corbyn probably isnt the one!) but who knows what a more positive media imagine could do for him? which will happen if he becomes more popular.
the current voting majority might not like left wing parties but they are also fed up with right wing/centralist fake s as well.
I don't think Labour have a chance in the next election whoever they choose. The economy will almost certainly be decent, the books will be balanced with the Tories getting the tough stuff out of the way in the next 2 years.
Maybe they should look at their strategy for the economy with the aim of winning the 2025 ish election.
I think Labour is pretty dead in the water currently. To attract the Scots they have to go further left, if they do that they will alienate the floaters in England. Complete modernisation and a coherent economic strategy is required.0 -
Lots of the new Labour supporters are from the Greens who are obviously hoping Labour can become as left as their previous one MP party. They haven't worked out that the Greens only have one MP because no one votes for them0
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I don't think Labour have a chance in the next election whoever they choose. The economy will almost certainly be decent, the books will be balanced with the Tories getting the tough stuff out of the way in the next 2 years.
Why do you think the economy will be in a decent shape and the books will be balanced by the next election? It will have been 12 years since the 2008 credit crunch, and 12 years would be an abnormally long time to go without a recession, whichever party is in charge. China's stumbling and the oil price will probably have to rise at some point for all the OPEC nations to balance their budgets, so the low inflation and wage rises of the past couple of years could well come to an end.
Unless the housing market crashes, the number of people stuck in crappy, expensive rented accommodation will rise, and there'll be an increasing number of voters with massive student debts. If you chuck a recession into the mix, there could be a lot of very p1ssed off voters next time round.
Then there's all the non-economic questions to consider - education is a disaster waiting to happen (rising pupil numbers and the country is already having difficulty retaining teachers), as is health (ageing population) and the environment is probably going to come more into focus over the next couple of years as global temperatures look like they're about to take a big jump upwards - not exactly the Tories' strong point.0 -
With a list that bad I don't think it's anyone's strong point.0
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I've heard the line about the electoral system being unfair from so many people whose chosen party lost that it's getting tiresome
That's what general elections are for. The UK decisively rejected a left wing labour only 3 months ago. And a Corbyn led Labour would be way further left than that. I would be more than happy to bet a decent sum on the result of the next general election if Corbyn becomes Labour leaderThere are about 43m people who can vote in the UK, approx 35% dont, thats a lot of people.
We can see what has happened in Scotland, what a charasmatic leader can do (Corbyn probably isnt the one!) but who knows what a more positive media imagine could do for him? which will happen if he becomes more popular.
the current voting majority might not like left wing parties but they are also fed up with right wing/centralist fake s as well.
but the uk didnt really did they? our first past the post system, at first glance, would give that impression, but only about 36% voted for a right wing Gov, hardly decisive! and just in england the numbers show an even less decisive victory for the Tories, in voter numbers NOT MP's - most seats would need only a small swing to change hands, what ever the incumbent party.
Pretty much that same number didnt vote at all! what if they decide to vote? that is my point not what happened a few months ago, corbyn... whoever, have 5 years to get some of these people out of their apathetic slumber!
But dont worry i wont be matching your bet on a labour victory, whoever they elect, the SNP have shot their goose.
If the right was as unpopular as people make out then Miliband Labour must have been a pretty unappealimg prosepect for them to lose. And as for the old line about stirring up the non-voters, well that one gets trotted out after most general elections. Anyone who thinks Corbyn is a net vote winner for Labour should think again."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I've kept my two penw'orth out of this purile thread 'cos that's what it is in my POV.
All I say is, should JC win the labour party leadership election and he still be in the post come 2020 then at least I and indeed the entire electorate will have a genuine choice of conservatism or socialism. That has to be good IMHO rather than CONSERVATISM or conservatism.Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
I've kept my two penw'orth out of this purile thread 'cos that's what it is in my POV.
All I say is, should JC win the labour party leadership election and he still be in the post come 2020 then at least I and indeed the entire electorate will have a genuine choice of conservatism or socialism. That has to be good IMHO rather than CONSERVATISM or conservatism.
Depends if you want to actually govern or just be a protest group. You can't do anything from outside government and that will be the Labour party's position if they elect Corbyn.0 -
Following weeks of attacks from the Tory press, Jeremy Corbyn is the most popular of the candidates for Labour leadership among Labour, Lib Dem and UKIP voters.0
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Frank, that is exactly what I (and probably most conservatives) want, so it appears that we are in agreementAll I say is, should JC win the labour party leadership election and he still be in the post come 2020 then at least I and indeed the entire electorate will have a genuine choice of conservatism or socialism
Any takers for that bet that I mentioned above?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Frank, that is exactly what I (and probably most conservatives) want, so it appears that we are in agreementAll I say is, should JC win the labour party leadership election and he still be in the post come 2020 then at least I and indeed the entire electorate will have a genuine choice of conservatism or socialism
Any takers for that bet that I mentioned above?
Would it not be sensible to wait and see what the manifesto says and what the social and economic conditions are like in 2020 before making bets about the outcome of the next election?0 -
I accept that fella, it is a choice I would prefer to have.
Frank, that is exactly what I (and probably most conservatives) want, so it appears that we are in agreementAll I say is, should JC win the labour party leadership election and he still be in the post come 2020 then at least I and indeed the entire electorate will have a genuine choice of conservatism or socialism
Any takers for that bet that I mentioned above?
The gang of three, all say vote for Corbyn and that's it for labour as a party. I put it to all on here they are all typical 21st century politicians I.E. in it for themselves. If they were so concerned about the party and it's appeal rather than their self own interest then surely two of them would have stepped down out of the race in order to try and keep JC out. But they're just selfish b@st@rds so JC hopefully will win the vote.
Those tories with a red rosette can hopefully then all f**k off and join the lib/dems and you tories can carry on screwing the ordinary working man into the deck working for ever less remuneration and a life of toil with nowt to show for it and we'll be back to the masses trying to solve problems of the 2030s that were solved in the 1950s
Evette Cooper, Liz Kendal and Andy (I caried on privatising the NHS Burnham) go shove your tory light ideals up your own self-serving @rses.,
I'll say no more on this subject, thanks..................a pleasure to contribute. Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
Err, that's the whole point of bets - putting money on uncertain situations. Although from my point of view, it's not that uncertain. Hence the offer.
Frank, that is exactly what I (and probably most conservatives) want, so it appears that we are in agreementAll I say is, should JC win the labour party leadership election and he still be in the post come 2020 then at least I and indeed the entire electorate will have a genuine choice of conservatism or socialism
Any takers for that bet that I mentioned above?
Would it not be sensible to wait and see what the manifesto says and what the social and economic conditions are like in 2020 before making bets about the outcome of the next election?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
People tend to find out as much information as possible before making bets, unless they're not particularly bothered about winning or losing. That's why betting on the Premier League would be more sensible than picking a team at random from Lithuania and putting £1k on them winning their next game.0
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I accept that fella, it is a choice I would prefer to have.
Frank, that is exactly what I (and probably most conservatives) want, so it appears that we are in agreementAll I say is, should JC win the labour party leadership election and he still be in the post come 2020 then at least I and indeed the entire electorate will have a genuine choice of conservatism or socialism
Any takers for that bet that I mentioned above?
The gang of three, all say vote for Corbyn and that's it for labour as a party. I put it to all on here they are all typical 21st century politicians I.E. in it for themselves. If they were so concerned about the party and it's appeal rather than their self own interest then surely two of them would have stepped down out of the race in order to try and keep JC out. But they're just selfish b@st@rds so JC hopefully will win the vote.
Those tories with a red rosette can hopefully then all f**k off and join the lib/dems and you tories can carry on screwing the ordinary working man into the deck working for ever less remuneration and a life of toil with nowt to show for it and we'll be back to the masses trying to solve problems of the 2030s that were solved in the 1950s
Evette Cooper, Liz Kendal and Andy (I caried on privatising the NHS Burnham) go shove your tory light ideals up your own self-serving @rses.,
I'll say no more on this subject, thanks..................a pleasure to contribute.
I know what you're saying and in principle accept that having real choice is good. However, there's a reason why Labour became more centrist in the 90s and won their first election in nearly 2 decades. The country is by and large populated by people with middle of the road opinions so to be realistically electable you need to stay very slightly to one side of the dividing line on that road. The equivalent would be the Tories moving somewhere between UKIP and BNP territory had they lost. You only need to look at UKIP's result to see what that would have achieved.0 -
I accept that fella, it is a choice I would prefer to have.
Frank, that is exactly what I (and probably most conservatives) want, so it appears that we are in agreementAll I say is, should JC win the labour party leadership election and he still be in the post come 2020 then at least I and indeed the entire electorate will have a genuine choice of conservatism or socialism
Any takers for that bet that I mentioned above?
The gang of three, all say vote for Corbyn and that's it for labour as a party. I put it to all on here they are all typical 21st century politicians I.E. in it for themselves. If they were so concerned about the party and it's appeal rather than their self own interest then surely two of them would have stepped down out of the race in order to try and keep JC out. But they're just selfish b@st@rds so JC hopefully will win the vote.
Those tories with a red rosette can hopefully then all f**k off and join the lib/dems and you tories can carry on screwing the ordinary working man into the deck working for ever less remuneration and a life of toil with nowt to show for it and we'll be back to the masses trying to solve problems of the 2030s that were solved in the 1950s
Evette Cooper, Liz Kendal and Andy (I caried on privatising the NHS Burnham) go shove your tory light ideals up your own self-serving @rses.,
I'll say no more on this subject, thanks..................a pleasure to contribute.
I know what you're saying and in principle accept that having real choice is good. However, there's a reason why Labour became more centrist in the 90s and won their first election in nearly 2 decades. The country is by and large populated by people with middle of the road opinions so to be realistically electable you need to stay very slightly to one side of the dividing line on that road. The equivalent would be the Tories moving somewhere between UKIP and BNP territory had they lost. You only need to look at UKIP's result to see what that would have achieved.
That's true of most countries, the only questions are whereabouts the middle of the road is considered to be, and what happens when the old systems don't work anymore.0 -
I accept that fella, it is a choice I would prefer to have.
Frank, that is exactly what I (and probably most conservatives) want, so it appears that we are in agreementAll I say is, should JC win the labour party leadership election and he still be in the post come 2020 then at least I and indeed the entire electorate will have a genuine choice of conservatism or socialism
Any takers for that bet that I mentioned above?
The gang of three, all say vote for Corbyn and that's it for labour as a party. I put it to all on here they are all typical 21st century politicians I.E. in it for themselves. If they were so concerned about the party and it's appeal rather than their self own interest then surely two of them would have stepped down out of the race in order to try and keep JC out. But they're just selfish b@st@rds so JC hopefully will win the vote.
Those tories with a red rosette can hopefully then all f**k off and join the lib/dems and you tories can carry on screwing the ordinary working man into the deck working for ever less remuneration and a life of toil with nowt to show for it and we'll be back to the masses trying to solve problems of the 2030s that were solved in the 1950s
Evette Cooper, Liz Kendal and Andy (I caried on privatising the NHS Burnham) go shove your tory light ideals up your own self-serving @rses.,
I'll say no more on this subject, thanks..................a pleasure to contribute.
Except most of the workers would rather the Conservatives hence the General Election outcome. "Labour" has become a party for the non workers, who's interests are free this and that paid for by the state. This has produced a class of robotic, pathetic people who are totally dependant on the State. I know I deal with them every day!!0 -
It could also be the reason why so few vote.However, there's a reason why Labour became more centrist in the 90s and won their first election in nearly 2 decades.
What is the point in voting for a party more interested in getting elected than actual policies?
Times were tough under Maggie but at least you knew what you were voting for, or against.
It could also explain Labour's falling support. Conservative or Conservative light is not much of an option.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0
