BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

bendertherobot

It largely matters not who knew what now. There's a great informed consent analogy letter in the papers today. What's important now is calm and level headed leadership with a view to getting the best deal that hurts least, or not going forward and taking the flack. At the moment there are no politicians doing anything remotely sensible other than play to the crowd(s).

Pross

mrfpb wrote:

Interesting post going around Facebook looking at Sky Data's and Lord Ashcroft's exit polls

36% of eligible under 25s voted

83% of eligible over 65s voted

So when the under 25s are aggrieved at what the older generation have done to them, it's worth asking them if they voted.

I thought that the under 25s had got involved in this. Maybe they were really poorly engaged before.

See my previous post on the timing together with the point that younger people are more likely to want information to help them make an informed decision while us oldies (as can be seen clearly on this thread) are happy to decide on our own preconceived ideas and are unlikely to change an opinion based on what is put in front of us. If you were in your early 20s again (assuming you aren't!) and you had two sides telling you completely opposite things in increasingly childish ways would you have been happy making what may have been your first ever trip to the ballot box?

Pross

As for this thread, it has degenerated into people just selecting the news article, expert, sound bite etc. that 'proves' their point and no-one is going to change their view. It needs to go into hibernation until something happens to move the story on.

finchy

Surrey Commuter wrote:

I understand where you are coming from but this was all known by Cameron before he called the referendum. It was certainly known by the leaders of Brexit and it was known (if denied) by the 17 million people who voted out and the circa 10 million who did not bother to vote.

Depends what newspaper you read. I've been having a look around some of the comments sections on the different papers today. The Daily Mail readers seem to think that Britain has just entered a golden age and the EU is falling to pieces as we speak, and the only thing that needs to happen is for a British PM to go over to Brussels, stand firm and then they'll crack and give us everything we want. Give it a couple of years and they'll be doing their best impersonations of Hitler in Downfall, blaming everyone but themselves.

ballysmate

Pross wrote:

mrfpb wrote:

Interesting post going around Facebook looking at Sky Data's and Lord Ashcroft's exit polls

36% of eligible under 25s voted

83% of eligible over 65s voted

So when the under 25s are aggrieved at what the older generation have done to them, it's worth asking them if they voted.

I thought that the under 25s had got involved in this. Maybe they were really poorly engaged before.

See my previous post on the timing together with the point that younger people are more likely to want information to help them make an informed decision while us oldies (as can be seen clearly on this thread) are happy to decide on our own preconceived ideas and are unlikely to change an opinion based on what is put in front of us. If you were in your early 20s again (assuming you aren't!) and you had two sides telling you completely opposite things in increasingly childish ways would you have been happy making what may have been your first ever trip to the ballot box?

Whatever my age, if I had been told that the vote would massively affect my life and future, i would have made sure that I managed to get my ar5e out of bed to vote.

Pross

Ballysmate wrote:

Pross wrote:

mrfpb wrote:

Interesting post going around Facebook looking at Sky Data's and Lord Ashcroft's exit polls

36% of eligible under 25s voted

83% of eligible over 65s voted

So when the under 25s are aggrieved at what the older generation have done to them, it's worth asking them if they voted.

I thought that the under 25s had got involved in this. Maybe they were really poorly engaged before.

See my previous post on the timing together with the point that younger people are more likely to want information to help them make an informed decision while us oldies (as can be seen clearly on this thread) are happy to decide on our own preconceived ideas and are unlikely to change an opinion based on what is put in front of us. If you were in your early 20s again (assuming you aren't!) and you had two sides telling you completely opposite things in increasingly childish ways would you have been happy making what may have been your first ever trip to the ballot box?

Whatever my age, if I had been told that the vote would massively affect my life and future, i would have made sure that I managed to get my ar5e out of bed to vote.

So if you didn't feel you'd been given enough information to make an informed choice you would have just picked a box at random just so you could say you'd voted? Seems a bit silly really.

ballysmate

Pross wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Pross wrote:

mrfpb wrote:

Interesting post going around Facebook looking at Sky Data's and Lord Ashcroft's exit polls

36% of eligible under 25s voted

83% of eligible over 65s voted

So when the under 25s are aggrieved at what the older generation have done to them, it's worth asking them if they voted.

I thought that the under 25s had got involved in this. Maybe they were really poorly engaged before.

See my previous post on the timing together with the point that younger people are more likely to want information to help them make an informed decision while us oldies (as can be seen clearly on this thread) are happy to decide on our own preconceived ideas and are unlikely to change an opinion based on what is put in front of us. If you were in your early 20s again (assuming you aren't!) and you had two sides telling you completely opposite things in increasingly childish ways would you have been happy making what may have been your first ever trip to the ballot box?

Whatever my age, if I had been told that the vote would massively affect my life and future, i would have made sure that I managed to get my ar5e out of bed to vote.

So if you didn't feel you'd been given enough information to make an informed choice you would have just picked a box at random just so you could say you'd voted? Seems a bit silly really.

In that case, if they are so naive, you make a good case for raising the age whereby you are eligible to vote.

rick_chasey

Surprised you think women should be allowed to vote Bally.

Don't be so hard on the young. They will be paying for your pension and looking after you while you sit on your wrinkley old arse moaning about immigrants and that your pension pot got ruined in the period 2016-2020.

surrey_commuter

bendertherobot wrote:

It largely matters not who knew what now. There's a great informed consent analogy letter in the papers today. What's important now is calm and level headed leadership with a view to getting the best deal that hurts least, or not going forward and taking the flack. At the moment there are no politicians doing anything remotely sensible other than play to the crowd(s).

I agree. However I also believe that even if we had a vote in Parliament and refused to invoke A50 I think our membership of the EU would be untenable. They know this will not go away and cause them unwanted instability. I think they would ease us towards the exit.

That as you says leaves us to pursue the best option which to my mind is a Norwegian style agreement giving away whatever we need to to protect financial services. This would be going against the will of the people but as you suggest it would be doing what is best for them not what they want.

Pross

^^^What's naive about it? It could be perceived as being more naive to be talked into voting one way or the other on the dubious promises / scaremongering of self-serving politicians and certainly more naive of a PM to leave such a big decision to the general public based on their distorted views one way or the other.

rick_chasey

France have already played the card of not allowing London to do Euroclearing which is what, a €1tn a year business.

joelsim

bendertherobot wrote:

At the moment there are no politicians doing anything remotely sensible other than play to the crowd(s).

I would be extremely surprised if that was the case. They will be scheming and garnering support for the upcoming Leadership Elections and just what the propositions of each candidate needs to be to carry on the impression that we are out whilst formulating plans and alliances.

surrey_commuter

Joelsim wrote:

bendertherobot wrote:

At the moment there are no politicians doing anything remotely sensible other than play to the crowd(s).

I would be extremely surprised if that was the case. They will be scheming and garnering support for the upcoming Leadership Elections and just what the propositions of each candidate needs to be to carry on the impression that we are out whilst formulating plans and alliances.

If there is one thing we have had rammed home to us it is that (Tory?) politicians really will do and say anything to win an election then worry about the consequences.

Garry H

Rick Chasey wrote:

France have already played the card of not allowing London to do Euroclearing which is what, a €1tn a year business.

I would be extremely surprised if that happened. There are very good reasons why it's done in London.

joelsim

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

bendertherobot wrote:

At the moment there are no politicians doing anything remotely sensible other than play to the crowd(s).

I would be extremely surprised if that was the case. They will be scheming and garnering support for the upcoming Leadership Elections and just what the propositions of each candidate needs to be to carry on the impression that we are out whilst formulating plans and alliances.

If there is one thing we have had rammed home to us it is that (Tory?) politicians really will do and say anything to win an election then worry about the consequences.

I'm not just talking about the Tories here. But yes, Boris has done this to the nth degree. It appears to be very well known in political circles too, even the other Tories who voted out don't trust him.

rick_chasey

Garry H wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

France have already played the card of not allowing London to do Euroclearing which is what, a €1tn a year business.

I would be extremely surprised if that happened. There are very good reasons why it's done in London.

Presumably the French & germans want a piece of the action, non?

surrey_commuter

Joelsim wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

bendertherobot wrote:

At the moment there are no politicians doing anything remotely sensible other than play to the crowd(s).

I would be extremely surprised if that was the case. They will be scheming and garnering support for the upcoming Leadership Elections and just what the propositions of each candidate needs to be to carry on the impression that we are out whilst formulating plans and alliances.

If there is one thing we have had rammed home to us it is that (Tory?) politicians really will do and say anything to win an election then worry about the consequences.

I'm not just talking about the Tories here. But yes, Boris has done this to the nth degree. It appears to be very well known in political circles too, even the other Tories who voted out don't trust him.

I was also thinking of Cameron promising the referendum to make sure he won the GE. Corbyn's problem is that he stands by his beliefs.

ballysmate

Rick Chasey wrote:

Surprised you think women should be allowed to vote Bally.

Don't be so hard on the young. They will be paying for your pension and looking after you while you sit on your wrinkley old ars* moaning about immigrants and that your pension pot got ruined in the period 2016-2020.

Not being hard on anyone, mate. The only person responsible for someone not bothering to vote is staring back at them in the mirror, whatever their age. Saying that they found it difficult to vote because of exams or because they couldn't make their minds up is as Boris would say, an inverted pyramid of pifle.


PS
I hope they have to pay my pension for many years

Pross

So you do think they should just have put a random cross in the box and hope it's the right one? The people to blame (assuming the decision to leave is a bad one) are those who took the anti-immigration, let's give the political elite a bloody nose choice not some kids rightly unconvinced by the bollox they are being told.

ballysmate

I'm not saying anything of the sort. It is YOU who are saying that they were/are incapable of making a meaningful decision.

Bo Duke

Rick Chasey wrote:

France have already played the card of not allowing London to do Euroclearing which is what, a €1tn a year business.

The EU is blazing all cannons at the moment to discourage any other nation from thinking they can go the same route. At the same time France needs to remember what goes around, comes around.... :shock:

pblakeney

Bo Duke wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

France have already played the card of not allowing London to do Euroclearing which is what, a €1tn a year business.

The EU is blazing all cannons at the moment to discourage any other nation from thinking they can go the same route. At the same time France needs to remember what goes around, comes around.... :shock:

It is in times of trouble that you find out who your real friends are. New Zealand are trying.
And??? Is that it? Remember this when the begging bowl comes our way.

surrey_commuter

Bo Duke wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

France have already played the card of not allowing London to do Euroclearing which is what, a €1tn a year business.

The EU is blazing all cannons at the moment to discourage any other nation from thinking they can go the same route. At the same time France needs to remember what goes around, comes around.... :shock:

Nobody is going to follow us

surrey_commuter

PBlakeney wrote:

Bo Duke wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

France have already played the card of not allowing London to do Euroclearing which is what, a €1tn a year business.

The EU is blazing all cannons at the moment to discourage any other nation from thinking they can go the same route. At the same time France needs to remember what goes around, comes around.... :shock:

It is in times of trouble that you find out who your real friends are. New Zealand are trying.
And??? Is that it? Remember this when the begging bowl comes our way.

Not seen the news - what are NZ doing?

What is anybody else not doing?

pblakeney

Surrey Commuter wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Bo Duke wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

France have already played the card of not allowing London to do Euroclearing which is what, a €1tn a year business.

The EU is blazing all cannons at the moment to discourage any other nation from thinking they can go the same route. At the same time France needs to remember what goes around, comes around.... :shock:

It is in times of trouble that you find out who your real friends are. New Zealand are trying.
And??? Is that it? Remember this when the begging bowl comes our way.

Not seen the news - what are NZ doing?

What is anybody else not doing?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... st-brexit/
Everyone else is saying if you are going, get out, and go to the end of the queue for negotiations.

Bo Duke

Of course they're saying that... they have to to ensure it sends a warning to others... blimey guys do you take everything at face value?

I saw it on the telly therefore it must be true?

bendertherobot

Bless NZ sending us some negotiators. My pro Brexit aunt has posted that piece on FB. I'm not sure she quite understands what it means.

pblakeney

bendertherobot wrote:

Bless NZ sending us some negotiators. My pro Brexit aunt has posted that piece on FB. I'm not sure she quite understands what it means.

I understand that it means very little.
But it is nice to see some positive action in a sea of negativity.

pblakeney

Bo Duke wrote:

Of course they're saying that... they have to to ensure it sends a warning to others... blimey guys do you take everything at face value?

I saw it on the telly therefore it must be true?

Keep that head deep in the sand.
They are not going to say "Okay have everything you want, we will change." at any point.

surrey_commuter

PBlakeney wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Bo Duke wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

France have already played the card of not allowing London to do Euroclearing which is what, a €1tn a year business.

The EU is blazing all cannons at the moment to discourage any other nation from thinking they can go the same route. At the same time France needs to remember what goes around, comes around.... :shock:

It is in times of trouble that you find out who your real friends are. New Zealand are trying.
And??? Is that it? Remember this when the begging bowl comes our way.

Not seen the news - what are NZ doing?

What is anybody else not doing?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... st-brexit/
Everyone else is saying if you are going, get out, and go to the end of the queue for negotiations.

That up-beat story is rather depressing. We have so few trade negotiators (40) that NZ (population 4.4 million) is offering to lend us some.

Can somebody explain to me why we should go to the front of the queue. For instance Canada/EU deal is nearly complete -why would they both stop and start from scratch with us? Same with the USA they must have numerous deals ranging from just starting to 90% complete - surely we have to start at the end of the line. We might be able to construct an argument for why we should be fast tracked.