BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

BelgianBeerGeek

Surrey Commuter wrote:

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

verylonglegs wrote:

Leaking? It's been painfully obvious for months for many. All the debates being full of nothing buy catchphrases should have been the biggest giveaway.

They are now coming clean... I am now thoroughly discombobulated
should I laugh or cry?
Did Cameron know - does him resigning make him a comedy genius or an even bigger **** than I thought?
Is it wrong to hope Boris get strung up from a lamppost?
Although I voted Remain why do I feel stupid today than I did Thursday?

Cameron lost, so he had to walk. I thought he should go straight away, but more and more I think leaving this three months is a canny move. Someone else has to do the crappy bit, I wonder who fancies that job?

If you mean canny in terms of negotiation with the EU then my worry is that 3 months will annoy them and make things worse. There is no reason why the Tories could not have this sorted by the end of July

I agree. But why would DC do that? He gambled and lost. Big time. But he is probably sick and tired and couldn't care less. Someone else can pick up the pieces. After all, he didn't get us into this mess

BelgianBeerGeek

ukiboy wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

ukiboy wrote:

Maybe because we (and our parents) were happy to fully integrate into British society.

New Labour (as Andrew Nether, advisor to cabinet members stated), decided to change the make up of British society forever and 'rub the rights noses in diversity'.

I have seen my home town change beyond all recognition in the years 2000- the present.
Thanks New Labour!

That's not racist or bigoted, that's just common sense and a sadness that what was once a beautiful town has been changed beyond all recognition. Walking down my High Street and seeing every shop front displaying a sign in a foreign language is not a positive thing IMHO.

Times change, things change. Kings road round where I live was once the epicentre of punk. Now you have to count with two hands how many ferraris you see heading down it when you go shopping.

That you don't like foreign shops on your street is bigoted. You'll just have to get over that, or accept you are.

We are all bigoted in one way or another. You too Rick. Human beings are a tribal bunch.
I, as a child of immigrants, integrated fully, as did my folks. I speak 3 languages, my folks speak multiple languages and I am hugely proud of the fact they integrated.
If the new immigration love living in England so much why don't they learn the language?
Integrate? In my opinion that's normal.

Thanks for integrating, and learning the language. Why does it bother you if someone else wants to speak another one. Bit like the English guy walking into the Welsh shop and wondering why they were all chatting in Welsh, but changed when he went in. Relax, sometimes people may want to converse or advertise in another language. It's not a personal thing.

Lookyhere

ukiboy wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

ukiboy wrote:

Maybe because we (and our parents) were happy to fully integrate into British society.

New Labour (as Andrew Nether, advisor to cabinet members stated), decided to change the make up of British society forever and 'rub the rights noses in diversity'.

I have seen my home town change beyond all recognition in the years 2000- the present.
Thanks New Labour!

That's not racist or bigoted, that's just common sense and a sadness that what was once a beautiful town has been changed beyond all recognition. Walking down my High Street and seeing every shop front displaying a sign in a foreign language is not a positive thing IMHO.

Times change, things change. Kings road round where I live was once the epicentre of punk. Now you have to count with two hands how many ferraris you see heading down it when you go shopping.

That you don't like foreign shops on your street is bigoted. You'll just have to get over that, or accept you are.

We are all bigoted in one way or another. You too Rick. Human beings are a tribal bunch.
I, as a child of immigrants, integrated fully, as did my folks. I speak 3 languages, my folks speak multiple languages and I am hugely proud of the fact they integrated.
If the new immigration love living in England so much why don't they learn the language?
Integrate? In my opinion that's normal.

so, you think your avg EU migrant cant speak english? really! or do you mean the almost 200k of non EU migration?

My friend who recently moved back to Poland, has just cancelled his plans for a family holiday back to Wales where he worked for 11 years, he feels the british have turned their backs on the EU and the Polish uk websites are very concerned about the direction the UK is taking.

i suspect EU migration will dry to a trickle.

TheBigBean

I'd imagine Boris is currently trying to work out the best way to become PM. He hasn't come this far to gracefully walk away and I suspect this is his current priority.

As much as I dislike the narrow minded nationalist bigots, the sad fact is that there's lots of them all over the world. The UK is far from being the exception and I would even go as far to say on the whole it is not as bad as most countries. The problem the EU faces is that this widespread bigotry is a massive hindrance to integration. The US is more functional because someone in New York vaguely cares about someone in Texas whereas in the EU no one really cares about the Greeks.

That said, I have limited sympathy for the educated and wealthy bigots who haven't noticed or cared about the division in society because their nanny / gardener / plumber etc. is now really cheap, so things must be fab for everyone and if it is not it is probably because they didn't work hard enough or something similar.

TheBigBean

Lookyhere wrote:

My friend who recently moved back to Poland, has just cancelled his plans for a family holiday back to Wales where he worked for 11 years, he feels the british have turned their backs on the EU and the Polish uk websites are very concerned about the direction the UK is taking.

i suspect EU migration will dry to a trickle.

Out of interest is he equally concerned that Poland is no longer able to accept 7000 refugees over a three year period? That's a serious question, I'm not trying to justify bigotry in this country because Poland is far far worse, but intrigued whether he reflects on that as well.

briantrumpet

TheBigBean wrote:

The US is more functional because someone in New York vaguely cares about someone in Texas.

Maybe, but that's not a view shared by those advocating Texit.

orraloon

And then Austin Tx will advocate secession from Texas in an Auxit, and....

I don't like my next door neighbour much so I want a MyHouseXit

briantrumpet

Well, I'm not sure on what part of cloud cuckoo land Boris has been spending the past day or so, but he's now stating:

"I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe, and always will be. There will still be intense and intensifying European cooperation and partnership in a huge number of fields: the arts, the sciences, the universities, and on improving the environment. EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU.

"British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI - the BDI - has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market."

And yet he thinks he can do this without paying any money, or being bound by EU legislation: "The only change - and it will not come in any great rush - is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU’s extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal. "

I think even if I was one of the more pragmatic movers and shakers in the EU, I'd send him away to think about his 'offer' to the EU (i.e., tell him to sod off). Basically he wants everything we've got now, except it not costing us as much, and not being bound by the laws he doesn't much care for.

finchy

^^^Whoever the next PM is, he or she will really have fun trying to negotiate a deal with the EU which is in the UK's best interests and is acceptable to all 27 member states and the European Parliament. You're right, Boris Johnson is living in fantasy land.

bendertherobot

Some confusing stuff now coming from Boris. It seems like we're having free trade, free movement, no money spent and no laws.

Right.

finchy

He really wasn't expecting to win, was he? Absolutely clueless.

bendertherobot

You know what, I don't think we're leaving the EU. It's frankly bloody negligent to do so at this stage.

orraloon

From the Guardian but difficult to argue with.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... e-eu-liars

Can the adults please make their presence known. FFS Thatcher for all her faults, and they were many, would have been preferable to this shower of total divs. And I never thought I would think that... Strange days.

finchy

This quote also from the Guardian.

Any delay in officially launching Johnson’s run could be in part because the former London mayor did not anticipate events moving so fast. One MP campaigning for Britain to leave the EU said that many on his side had not expected the outcome, insisting: “Boris wanted to succeed David Cameron, not topple him.”

briantrumpet

bendertherobot wrote:

You know what, I don't think we're leaving the EU.

Well, that does seem to be the implication of what Boris is saying. The whole thing is turning more bizarre by the minute. Firstly all the Brexit promises and claims are being denied, and now Boris is saying that pretty much everything in his version of Brexit will be like the pre-referendum EU. I'm confused.

briantrumpet

Of course, Boris might now have a little trouble selling his 'vision' of our proposed relationship with the EU to all the 17 million people who believed his pre-referendum paradisical dream of life outside the EU. The process has unleashed forces which it will be hard to control...

Bo Duke

The vast majority of posts this weekend are so all so one sided we're not actually breaking any new ground except in the personal insult and bitterness department as a 'few' (I exaggerate of course..) vertically challenged members continue to throw everything out of the pram. What's the end game, boredom or the TdF?

What's done, is done. The sideshows of a few nutters swearing in the street at 'foreigners' and wearing rude tee shirts will go on a little while longer until they too get bored of it. Then?

Let's talk about 'then'. What comes next otherwise we're all as bad as No Plan Boris.

The EU needs the UK market - go ask BMW, Mercedes etc.. hundreds of thousands of EU jobs depend on our economy smoothly transiting from one status to the other. The EU called our bluff once trying to act tough, I doubt they'll try it a second time despite the bravado of the MEP for Malta on the radio ('Kick them out without any concessions')

Morgan Stanley announcing 1,000 job losses.... within 24 hs? Seems Brexit is a perfect excuse to announce bad news and defect flak.. Jeez.. even a minister came out as lesbian, is Boris's fault as well?

Boris can't announce a way forward until everyone calms down as even the most sensible strategy will be slagged off by the bigoted ones who remain bitter that democracy was allowed to get in the way of the EU.

Let's take a break, have a kit-kat then work together as a nation to come up with a plan that will we can all feel good about - whatever that is. If you want to give up.. well that's your choice but its never been the British way.

joelsim

Brexit won't happen.

There's the plan. And it's up to us collectively to ensure that it becomes impossible for anyone to trigger Article 50 with committing career suicide.

Shouldn't be too difficult as none of the Leave promises are possible anyway.

We simply need to fight for the right thing for the country. (And I include Leave voters in that, unless they are really really thick they will see the increase in racism, the catastrophic effects on the economy and the folly of having the hard right in charge in due course).

Bo Duke

Joel, the danger of undermining democracy makes your idea unworkable. We can't destroy what our fathers have defended with their lives simply because you don't like the outcome of a vote. Sorry mate.

pblakeney

Joelsim wrote:

Brexit won't happen.

There's the plan. And it's up to us collectively to ensure that it becomes impossible for anyone to trigger Article 50 with committing career suicide.

Shouldn't be too difficult as none of the Leave promises are possible anyway.

We simply need to fight for the right thing for the country. (And I include Leave voters in that, unless they are really really thick they will see the increase in racism, the catastrophic effects on the economy and the folly of having the hard right in charge in due course).

Totally in La La Land denial.
As much as the Brexit plans.

ugo.santalucia

So basically Boris' plan is Switzerland... I'd sign for a Switzerland outcome... I still regret choosing the Uk and not Switzerland when I could in 2000... just a matter of seeing how many of the 27 partners agree to have another Switzerland

crispybug2

ugo.santalucia wrote:

So basically Boris' plan is Switzerland... I'd sign for a Switzerland outcome... I still regret choosing the Uk and not Switzerland when I could in 2000... just a matter of seeing how many of the 27 partners agree to have another Switzerland

On an entirely flippant point, but wasn't there a hedge fund that relocated from London to Switzerland as a result of the reforms of the banking sector but were back in London within a couple of years because the traders found Switzerland too boring?

bobmcstuff

Bo Duke wrote:

Let's talk about 'then'. What comes next otherwise we're all as bad as No Plan Boris.

Boris can't announce a way forward until everyone calms down as even the most sensible strategy will be slagged off by the bigoted ones who remain bitter that democracy was allowed to get in the way of the EU.

Let's take a break, have a kit-kat then work together as a nation to come up with a plan that will we can all feel good about - whatever that is. If you want to give up.. well that's your choice but its never been the British way.

Agree with most of that, except I think a lot of people will never really feel "good" about it - acceptance is probably as good as we're going to get. But undermining the process won't help.

However it is going to be a little while until that happens since we have a Conservative leadership campaign, almost certainly a Labour one and possibly even a snap GE as well (maybe). It looks like there will be a few months of internal political infighting before we get anything concrete.

Agree withe you on the banks, it seems like they are mostly waiting to see whether we stay in the single market (and it looks like maybe we will).

Pross

I'm still struggling with what was going on in Cameron's head promising a referendum in the first place. The EU was a non -issue for the vast majority of the electorate (immigration was but I think it will remain so when we leave as to most of those concerned immigration covers all foreigners not just EU citizens). Obviously the intention was to heal divisions in the Tory party but that was never going to work whichever way the result went and has now just caused a huge rift in the general population too.

surrey_commuter

ugo.santalucia wrote:

So basically Boris' plan is Switzerland... I'd sign for a Switzerland outcome... I still regret choosing the Uk and not Switzerland when I could in 2000... just a matter of seeing how many of the 27 partners agree to have another Switzerland

Covered this further back. Switzerland is a series of bilateral agreements. The EU has changed it's mind and is doing no more with Switzerland. They will not start again with the Uk. They are also intertwined so if you reject one you reject them all.

So you have;
Norway - why bother leaving
Canada - take too long
WTO - costly but easy

None of the above cover services which are approximately a third of our exports and the area in which we run a massive surplus

surrey_commuter

Bo Duke wrote:

Joel, the danger of undermining democracy makes your idea unworkable. We can't destroy what our fathers have defended with their lives simply because you don't like the outcome of a vote. Sorry mate.

They have gone back on nearly every issue they campaigned on. It looks increasingly likely that the whole country has been pulled into some jolly japes Tory power struggle.

And most of those 17 million will never vote Tory (or vote for anything in a blue rosette) so who cares.

What exactly do you think they are not capable of.

Bo Duke

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Bo Duke wrote:

Joel, the danger of undermining democracy makes your idea unworkable. We can't destroy what our fathers have defended with their lives simply because you don't like the outcome of a vote. Sorry mate.

They have gone back on nearly every issue they campaigned on. It looks increasingly likely that the whole country has been pulled into some jolly japes Tory power struggle.

And most of those 17 million will never vote Tory (or vote for anything in a blue rosette) so who cares.

What exactly do you think they are not capable of.

I don't what you're on about, has Boris announced his cunning plan? Please post a link as I'm as curious as everyone else.

In terms of swinging statements can I say that as 11 shadow minsters have resigned that Labour will never be able to field a credible government again?

Good time to be in the Monster Raving Loony Party, they seem very mainstream these days.

ugo.santalucia

Surrey Commuter wrote:

So you have;
Norway - why bother leaving

I don't think Boris is too bothered about leaving, he wanted Cameron to leave, so that's a result... he could not wait 4 years for his moment to arrive, he thinks his moment is now.

Farage takes the merit and will take the blame when things don't go the UKIP way... Boris never promised to solve immigration and his point was always to get out of the Brussels politics, which is deliverable with a Norway model.

He basically represents a large proportion of the nation who don't really give a toss about what happens in Europe and that includes a lot of the Remain camp... look at the pro Europe bbc, any news about the Spanish elections? Anyone knows there was a General election in Spain? Shouldn't it be bigger news than some Cricket match or a tennis tournament nobody has ever heard about? The news of Spanish elections were in massive capital letters in Italy and across the rest of continental Europe, but here.

If Boris can polish the turd he might have 8.5 years in power, if he can't he will last 6 months and be blamed for everything bad in the world... it's a gamble, but probably one worth taking for him

surrey_commuter

Bo Duke wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Bo Duke wrote:

Joel, the danger of undermining democracy makes your idea unworkable. We can't destroy what our fathers have defended with their lives simply because you don't like the outcome of a vote. Sorry mate.

They have gone back on nearly every issue they campaigned on. It looks increasingly likely that the whole country has been pulled into some jolly japes Tory power struggle.

And most of those 17 million will never vote Tory (or vote for anything in a blue rosette) so who cares.

What exactly do you think they are not capable of.

I don't what you're on about, has Boris announced his cunning plan? Please post a link as I'm as curious as everyone else.

pretty much

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/i-cannot-stress-too-much-that-britain-is-part-of-europe--and-alw/

In terms of swinging statements can I say that as 11 shadow minsters have resigned that Labour will never be able to field a credible government again?

Good time to be in the Monster Raving Loony Party, they seem very mainstream these days.

surrey_commuter

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

So you have;
Norway - why bother leaving

I don't think Boris is too bothered about leaving, he wanted Cameron to leave, so that's a result... he could not wait 4 years for his moment to arrive, he thinks his moment is now.

Farage takes the merit and will take the blame when things don't go the UKIP way... Boris never promised to solve immigration and his point was always to get out of the Brussels politics, which is deliverable with a Norway model.

He basically represents a large proportion of the nation who don't really give a toss about what happens in Europe and that includes a lot of the Remain camp... look at the pro Europe bbc, any news about the Spanish elections? Anyone knows there was a General election in Spain? Shouldn't it be bigger news than some Cricket match or a tennis tournament nobody has ever heard about? The news of Spanish elections were in massive capital letters in Italy and across the rest of continental Europe, but here.

If Boris can polish the turd he might have 8.5 years in power, if he can't he will last 6 months and be blamed for everything bad in the world... it's a gamble, but probably one worth taking for him

I agree with everything you say -it just feels like a very expensive way for Boris to get his portrait hung on the staircase of 10 Downing St.