BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    orraloon wrote:
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    I don't think they are stuck, Sturgeon is going to use this as evidence that they need another referendum and this time they will win it decisively.
    I wonder how those who voted No last time in order to keep the status quo feel this morning.
    A re-run is inevitable, as long as the EU has not unravelled.

    I don't think Scotland will rush into a referendum to leave the UK to possibly join a crumbling EU which could leave them out in the cold. If there is a reaction from other states wanting to follow our lead, ie Holland and France then the EU will not look so rosy compared to staying in the relative security of remaining in the UK.

    Met any Scots people and asked them how they view the English Westminster elite?

    Does my entire family on my fathers side count? The point is, they voted to remain part of the UK once already. The whole idea of voting again to leave just because it will keep them in an EU with a very uncertain future would not make a lot of sense until there is a clear view of what happens next among the other nations. Scotland could theoretically leave the UK, join the EU, and then find themselves in a worse situation than they (think) they are already.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    orraloon wrote:
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    I don't think they are stuck, Sturgeon is going to use this as evidence that they need another referendum and this time they will win it decisively.
    I wonder how those who voted No last time in order to keep the status quo feel this morning.
    A re-run is inevitable, as long as the EU has not unravelled.

    I don't think Scotland will rush into a referendum to leave the UK to possibly join a crumbling EU which could leave them out in the cold. If there is a reaction from other states wanting to follow our lead, ie Holland and France then the EU will not look so rosy compared to staying in the relative security of remaining in the UK.

    Met any Scots people and asked them how they view the English Westminster elite?

    Does my entire family on my fathers side count? The point is, they voted to remain part of the UK once already. The whole idea of voting again to leave just because it will keep them in an EU with a very uncertain future would not make a lot of sense until there is a clear view of what happens next among the other nations. Scotland could theoretically leave the UK, join the EU, and then find themselves in a worse situation than they (think) they are already.

    On the other hand, sentiment towards independence stayed high after the Indy ref, and this EU referendum further cements the idea that Scotland and rUK simply have different priorities and disagree on many, many issues.

    I don't think it is at all unlikely that Scotland will leave the UK around the same time the UK leaves Europe (or possibly before should the UK exit negotiations be protracted over longer than 2-3 years).
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,328
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    Does my entire family on my fathers side count? The point is, they voted to remain part of the UK once already. The whole idea of voting again to leave just because it will keep them in an EU with a very uncertain future would not make a lot of sense until there is a clear view of what happens next among the other nations. Scotland could theoretically leave the UK, join the EU, and then find themselves in a worse situation than they (think) they are already.
    Probably why Sturgeon isn't rushing into things. Waiting for the dust to settle.
    If I was a betting man though...
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    orraloon wrote:
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    I don't think they are stuck, Sturgeon is going to use this as evidence that they need another referendum and this time they will win it decisively.
    I wonder how those who voted No last time in order to keep the status quo feel this morning.
    A re-run is inevitable, as long as the EU has not unravelled.

    I don't think Scotland will rush into a referendum to leave the UK to possibly join a crumbling EU which could leave them out in the cold. If there is a reaction from other states wanting to follow our lead, ie Holland and France then the EU will not look so rosy compared to staying in the relative security of remaining in the UK.

    Met any Scots people and asked them how they view the English Westminster elite?

    Does my entire family on my fathers side count? The point is, they voted to remain part of the UK once already. The whole idea of voting again to leave just because it will keep them in an EU with a very uncertain future would not make a lot of sense until there is a clear view of what happens next among the other nations. Scotland could theoretically leave the UK, join the EU, and then find themselves in a worse situation than they (think) they are already.

    On the other hand, sentiment towards independence stayed high after the Indy ref, and this EU referendum further cements the idea that Scotland and UK simply have different priorities and disagree on many, many issues.

    I don't think it is at all unlikely that Scotland will leave the UK around the same time the UK leaves Europe (or possibly before should the UK exit negotiations be protracted over longer than 2-3 years).

    Bear in mind that Cameron has now announced he will stand down, the entire British political climate is shifting in many ways. I still do not see how the SNP can deliver on the promises that got them into parliament in the current position we find ourselves in. They cannot say what is best for them. To me, Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon are trying to play braveheart leading the Scots to freedom. But they have no idea what is on the other side. The EU could be dead and buried in less than a decade. That would leave Scotland a very small nation on the outskirts without anyone to subsidies them like the UK or EU currently does.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    edited June 2016
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    The whole idea of voting again to leave just because it will keep them in an EU with a very uncertain future would not make a lot of sense until there is a clear view of what happens next among the other nations.

    When did sense ever play a part in a referendum? There's a reason why the UK has traditionally shied away from letting the general public vote on specific issues.
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,227
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    orraloon wrote:
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    I don't think they are stuck, Sturgeon is going to use this as evidence that they need another referendum and this time they will win it decisively.
    I wonder how those who voted No last time in order to keep the status quo feel this morning.
    A re-run is inevitable, as long as the EU has not unravelled.

    I don't think Scotland will rush into a referendum to leave the UK to possibly join a crumbling EU which could leave them out in the cold. If there is a reaction from other states wanting to follow our lead, ie Holland and France then the EU will not look so rosy compared to staying in the relative security of remaining in the UK.

    Met any Scots people and asked them how they view the English Westminster elite?

    Does my entire family on my fathers side count? The point is, they voted to remain part of the UK once already. The whole idea of voting again to leave just because it will keep them in an EU with a very uncertain future would not make a lot of sense until there is a clear view of what happens next among the other nations. Scotland could theoretically leave the UK, join the EU, and then find themselves in a worse situation than they (think) they are already.

    In which case, the views of your entire family on your father's side on the English Westminster elite are what? Entirely positive and supportive of the likes of fat BoJo or Shiny Faced Dave? I would suggest not.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    Does my entire family on my fathers side count? The point is, they voted to remain part of the UK once already. The whole idea of voting again to leave just because it will keep them in an EU with a very uncertain future would not make a lot of sense until there is a clear view of what happens next among the other nations. Scotland could theoretically leave the UK, join the EU, and then find themselves in a worse situation than they (think) they are already.
    Probably why Sturgeon isn't rushing into things. Waiting for the dust to settle.
    If I was a betting man though...

    Erm, having just watched Sturgeon's speech, which btw was excellent, a second referendum will be held very very quickly with her full backing.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,318
    ...and now:

    Sturgeon can really crank up the demands on Westminster.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Joelsim wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    Does my entire family on my fathers side count? The point is, they voted to remain part of the UK once already. The whole idea of voting again to leave just because it will keep them in an EU with a very uncertain future would not make a lot of sense until there is a clear view of what happens next among the other nations. Scotland could theoretically leave the UK, join the EU, and then find themselves in a worse situation than they (think) they are already.
    Probably why Sturgeon isn't rushing into things. Waiting for the dust to settle.
    If I was a betting man though...

    Erm, having just watched Sturgeon's speech, which btw was excellent, a second referendum will be held very very quickly with her full backing.

    Then she shows herself to be a bigger idiot as I guessed she was already. People need time to reflect and let time pass before you start banging in demands for things you don't even know you really even want. Half the SNP MPs are completely pointless. Pretty much anyone could have got elected for them at the last election since labour showed themselves to be so inept. This does not make the SNP any brighter or know what they are doing. A 20 odd yr old student got elected ffs. This shows the people didn't even care who they voted for so long as they were SNP. And this is the way they intend to self govern?
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    I don't think they are stuck, Sturgeon is going to use this as evidence that they need another referendum and this time they will win it decisively.
    I wonder how those who voted No last time in order to keep the status quo feel this morning.
    A re-run is inevitable, as long as the EU has not unravelled.

    I don't think Scotland will rush into a referendum to leave the UK to possibly join a crumbling EU which could leave them out in the cold. If there is a reaction from other states wanting to follow our lead, ie Holland and France then the EU will not look so rosy compared to staying in the relative security of remaining in the UK.

    The major problem last time was that other states (Spain and Belgium) would have vetoed them. If I was sturgeon I would try and take over our membership.
  • stanislav
    stanislav Posts: 1,151
    NorvernRob wrote:
    I'm amazed there is so much surprise on here, and so much arrogance. That by the way is why Remain lost. They never listen.
    This
    PTP winner 2015.
  • ukiboy
    ukiboy Posts: 891
    In spite of this historic democratic decision we British are still a European nation with close trading, if not political, ties to the great nations on the European mainland.

    No one would wish for isolationism or petty trade wars just because of a decision made by the great British public. That would be counter productive for everyone on this continent.

    It is, however, a good thing that the UK has finally said 'Enough!' to meddlesome bureaucratic self serving elite civil servants riding the EU gravy train.

    I remain proud of the UK's historic ties to the continent of Europe and our shared history and to that end I have bought one of the great exports of France - a delightful bottle of Bollinger which I am savouring to celebrate this historic day.
    Outside the rat race and proud of it
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    I don't think they are stuck, Sturgeon is going to use this as evidence that they need another referendum and this time they will win it decisively.
    I wonder how those who voted No last time in order to keep the status quo feel this morning.
    A re-run is inevitable, as long as the EU has not unravelled.

    I don't think Scotland will rush into a referendum to leave the UK to possibly join a crumbling EU which could leave them out in the cold. If there is a reaction from other states wanting to follow our lead, ie Holland and France then the EU will not look so rosy compared to staying in the relative security of remaining in the UK.

    The major problem last time was that other states (Spain and Belgium) would have vetoed them. If I was sturgeon I would try and take over our membership.

    How? Once Article 50 is activated the whole leaving the EU begins. Even if they held another referendum tomorrow it would be too late. They would get a choice. Remain in the EU and get no severance from the remainder of the UK as a penalty. They are not going to get an easy ride if they try to rush out the door to what is a very uncertain EU. They could be making a very big mistake and burn all their bridges at once. Politicians are very petty and I doubt any quick break to try and remain in Europe would be done amicably
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,318
    There are people who have been elected on the back of SNP popularity. My own MP is a case in point. He replaced the very good MP Russell Brown but they do not make up more than a few percent. However, there are some very eloquent and articulate people amongst them.
    The vote in Scotland is ironic really when all our Scottish produce -Whisky, Salmon, STD's are sole to global markets than just the Eurozone.

    Juts off the top of my head:
    We need unilateral agreements on fishing quotas - it's an environmental imperative.
    Scottish Farmers will be in deep sh1t without CAP payments.
    We need reciprocal health care arrangements and a continuation of the organ donation scheme - we are on the receiving end of those donations because organ donation in the UK is poor.
    We will need to cop-operate in terms of security and immigration and continue to work with Interpol for example.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    To me, Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon are trying to play braveheart leading the Scots to freedom. But they have no idea what is on the other side.

    Isn't that exactly what Gove and Johnson have just pulled off here?

    Except obviously replace Braveheart with Churchill.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    Does my entire family on my fathers side count? The point is, they voted to remain part of the UK once already. The whole idea of voting again to leave just because it will keep them in an EU with a very uncertain future would not make a lot of sense until there is a clear view of what happens next among the other nations. Scotland could theoretically leave the UK, join the EU, and then find themselves in a worse situation than they (think) they are already.
    Probably why Sturgeon isn't rushing into things. Waiting for the dust to settle.
    If I was a betting man though...

    Erm, having just watched Sturgeon's speech, which btw was excellent, a second referendum will be held very very quickly with her full backing.

    Then she shows herself to be a bigger idiot as I guessed she was already. People need time to reflect and let time pass before you start banging in demands for things you don't even know you really even want. Half the SNP MPs are completely pointless. Pretty much anyone could have got elected for them at the last election since labour showed themselves to be so inept. This does not make the SNP any brighter or know what they are doing. A 20 odd yr old student got elected ffs. This shows the people didn't even care who they voted for so long as they were SNP. And this is the way they intend to self govern?

    She wants independence so everything she does will be a move towards it.

    The Welsh are demanding not a penny less spending as reward for voting out
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,328
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    How? Once Article 50 is activated the whole leaving the EU begins. Even if they held another referendum tomorrow it would be too late. They would get a choice. Remain in the EU and get no severance from the remainder of the UK as a penalty. They are not going to get an easy ride if they try to rush out the door to what is a very uncertain EU. They could be making a very big mistake and burn all their bridges at once. Politicians are very petty and I doubt any quick break to try and remain in Europe would be done amicably
    Eerily similar to what was being said about the UK leaving the EU.
    Still happened.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • gaffer_slow
    gaffer_slow Posts: 417
    Scotland merges with London and remains in EU, and Wales joins the "Northern Powerhouse" as an independent nation?

    More seriously, there goes Canyon's UK market as they will no longer be "value" - although by the time your ordered bike gets delivered most people will likely not have cars so you will essentially be a king in your town.
  • Bobbinogs
    Bobbinogs Posts: 4,841
    Pross wrote:
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    The whole idea of voting again to leave just because it will keep them in an EU with a very uncertain future would not make a lot of sense until there is a clear view of what happens next among the other nations.

    When did sense ever play a part in a referendum? There's a reason why the UK has traditionally shied away from letting the general public vote on specific issues.

    I think that is spot on. The Remain vote seems to have focused around common sense, which completely missed the trick that many people were voting on emotion. The Brexit vote kicked up on the back of Osbourne budget threat and the PMs assertions about what Out would bring, as if people were voting out irrespective of the possible outcome such that common sense left the building a long time ago.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    To me, Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon are trying to play braveheart leading the Scots to freedom. But they have no idea what is on the other side.

    Isn't that exactly what Gove and Johnson have just pulled off here?

    Except obviously replace Braveheart with Churchill.

    No, they just came up with a load of statistics which cannot be verified either way. The problem for me with the whole Brexit issue was there was never anything both sides agreed on. It was always one side is right and the other wrong and vice versa. Both sides have lied and come up with BS statistics. People from all parts of society have had differing points of view. All the way from the top to the bottom end of society. No one knows whether this will work or not. It may and it may also be a complete catastrophic blow to the whole UK way of life.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Bobbinogs wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    The whole idea of voting again to leave just because it will keep them in an EU with a very uncertain future would not make a lot of sense until there is a clear view of what happens next among the other nations.

    When did sense ever play a part in a referendum? There's a reason why the UK has traditionally shied away from letting the general public vote on specific issues.

    I think that is spot on. The Remain vote seems to have focused around common sense, which completely missed the trick that many people were voting on emotion. The Brexit vote kicked up on the back of Osbourne budget threat and the PMs assertions about what Out would bring, as if people were voting out irrespective of the possible outcome such that common sense left the building a long time ago.

    Exactly, I am sure this is the reason we vote in a government to prevent knee jerk reactions to personal grievances. But once you let the people decide they never look at what effects the guy next door over what effects them first.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,328
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    To me, Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon are trying to play braveheart leading the Scots to freedom. But they have no idea what is on the other side.

    Isn't that exactly what Gove and Johnson have just pulled off here?

    Except obviously replace Braveheart with Churchill.

    No, they just came up with a load of statistics which cannot be verified either way. The problem for me with the whole Brexit issue was there was never anything both sides agreed on. It was always one side is right and the other wrong and vice versa. Both sides have lied and come up with BS statistics. People from all parts of society have had differing points of view. All the way from the top to the bottom end of society. No one knows whether this will work or not. It may and it may also be a complete catastrophic blow to the whole UK way of life.

    Are you talking about Indyref or Brexit?
    Could be either, could be both.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    ukiboy wrote:
    In spite of this historic democratic decision we British are still a European nation with close trading, if not political, ties to the great nations on the European mainland.

    No one would wish for isolationism or petty trade wars just because of a decision made by the great British public. That would be counter productive for everyone on this continent.

    It is, however, a good thing that the UK has finally said 'Enough!' to meddlesome bureaucratic self serving elite civil servants riding the EU gravy train.

    I remain proud of the UK's historic ties to the continent of Europe and our shared history and to that end I have bought one of the great exports of France - a delightful bottle of Bollinger which I am savouring to celebrate this historic day.


    We leave the EU we will have a worse deal which means that our exports to the EU have a 5-10 tariff on them. History suggests that we will slap them back on EU imports. Consumers pay more and there is less trade so making everybody poorer. There is a reason why economists like free trade.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,697
    gaffer_slow wrote:
    More seriously, there goes Canyon's UK market as they will no longer be "value" - although by the time your ordered bike gets delivered most people will likely not have cars so you will essentially be a king in your town.

    :lol:

    That did make me laugh, well played.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,227
    Pinno wrote:
    ...
    We need unilateral agreements on fishing quotas
    ...
    What's a unilateral agreement then? Isn't an agreement normally between 2 or more parties?
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    orraloon wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    ...
    We need unilateral agreements on fishing quotas
    ...
    What's a unilateral agreement then? Isn't an agreement normally between 2 or more parties?

    I just made a unilateral agreement to go and buy a sandwich.

    Isn't a unilateral agreement just a declaration?
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,328
    Joelsim wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    Does my entire family on my fathers side count? The point is, they voted to remain part of the UK once already. The whole idea of voting again to leave just because it will keep them in an EU with a very uncertain future would not make a lot of sense until there is a clear view of what happens next among the other nations. Scotland could theoretically leave the UK, join the EU, and then find themselves in a worse situation than they (think) they are already.
    Probably why Sturgeon isn't rushing into things. Waiting for the dust to settle.
    If I was a betting man though...

    Erm, having just watched Sturgeon's speech, which btw was excellent, a second referendum will be held very very quickly with her full backing.
    I was going by this quote on the BBC.
    "Asked if there were any other options available to the Scottish government, she replied: "I think an independence referendum is now highly likely but I also think it is important that we take time to consider all steps and have the discussions, not least to assess the response of the European Union to the vote that Scotland expressed yesterday.""
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,227
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    orraloon wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    ...
    We need unilateral agreements on fishing quotas
    ...
    What's a unilateral agreement then? Isn't an agreement normally between 2 or more parties?

    I just made a unilateral agreement to go and buy a sandwich.

    Isn't a unilateral agreement just a declaration?

    Could be the voices inside one's head reaching a consensus?

    Anyway, Cod Wars 2 anyone?
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Maglia Rosa wrote:
    Does my entire family on my fathers side count? The point is, they voted to remain part of the UK once already. The whole idea of voting again to leave just because it will keep them in an EU with a very uncertain future would not make a lot of sense until there is a clear view of what happens next among the other nations. Scotland could theoretically leave the UK, join the EU, and then find themselves in a worse situation than they (think) they are already.
    Probably why Sturgeon isn't rushing into things. Waiting for the dust to settle.
    If I was a betting man though...

    Erm, having just watched Sturgeon's speech, which btw was excellent, a second referendum will be held very very quickly with her full backing.
    I was going by this quote on the BBC.
    "Asked if there were any other options available to the Scottish government, she replied: "I think an independence referendum is now highly likely but I also think it is important that we take time to consider all steps and have the discussions, not least to assess the response of the European Union to the vote that Scotland expressed yesterday.""

    Ah, you need to watch the video. It couldn't be clearer.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    orraloon wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    orraloon wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    ...
    We need unilateral agreements on fishing quotas
    ...
    What's a unilateral agreement then? Isn't an agreement normally between 2 or more parties?

    I just made a unilateral agreement to go and buy a sandwich.

    Isn't a unilateral agreement just a declaration?

    Could be the voices inside one's head reaching a consensus?

    Anyway, Cod Wars 2 anyone?

    But that would be a bilateral agreement between me and myself, surely?

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