BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
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bobmcstuff wrote:mrfpb wrote:The idea that every regulation would be debated in every parliament or scrutinised by every civil service was seen as a bureaucratic nightmare that would stop free trade.
This is slightly misleading as it isn't solely related to EU legislation, many regulatory bodies within the UK have the power to pass new, legally binding regulations in the same way.
E.g., the HSE is enabled under the Health and Safety at Work Act (which was discussed in parliament) to create subsidiary regulations as required to regulate health and safety at work in the UK. DECC etc. have similar powers (although I believe there are a number of Acts which empower DECC to regulate the various areas they are now responsible for).
I presume that there is an Act that has been passed by the UK parliament which gives the EU similar jurisdiction.
Additionally many EU regulations are enacted by Directives which are transposed/interpreted by individual governments, and there is actually a fair amount of wriggle room in the interpretation (although the EU can challenge the country's interpretation and do do so from time to time).
Basically my point is we are subject to plenty of legislation that has been put in place by civil servants who aren't directly elected, it's not just from the EU.
but our civil service is overseen by a democratically elected government, usually through a secretary of state, who can issue regulations or change the process by which regulations are created and implemented. EU regualtions and laws are made by appointed commissioners. no democratically elected body in the EU is allowed to draft/create legislation, only to scrutinise the legislation created by the unelected commission.
The act that allows the EU to do this is the Single European Act signed up to by Mrs T - which she later regretted.
The Maastricht treaty gave further powers, but was at least properly debated in parliament. However it only got through because after it's first Parliamentary defeat John Major said that a further vote against it would be a vote of no confidence in the government. Essentially the Tory party had to vote for it to avoid a general election that they expected to lose.
My other point stands that we cannot rollback any of these treaties through negotiation, as proved by Cameron's failure in negotiation before calling the referendum. If we want the lost sovereignty back we have to leave.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:
And, for the last time, we do vote for MEPs you know. It's your own fault if you decide to vote a bunch of UKIPers who refuse to do anything with their seat other than earn a healthy wage, eat in rather nice restaurants in Brussels and Strasbourg and insult other European leaders.
I don't vote for UKIP, Farage said he wanted to hold the EU to account for their profligate spending, but within one term in Brussels he was refusing to have his parties spending audited or otherwise scrutinised. As I said earlier, the MEPS don't put forward legislation, they scrutinise the laws that the unelected commissioners create. This is he opposite of the UK parliament where the elected commons and cabinet create legislation and he unelected lords scrutinise it. Any MP can put forward a private members bill for consideration, so the power to legislate doesn't just lie in the hands of the cabinet.
The British system of government has many flaws, but it is more democratic and therefore more accountable than the EU system.0 -
Shhhh.mrfpb wrote:....and therefore more accountable than the EU system.
You are not supposed to use the word account in connection with the EU. It may raise awkward questions.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
mrfpb wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:
And, for the last time, we do vote for MEPs you know. It's your own fault if you decide to vote a bunch of UKIPers who refuse to do anything with their seat other than earn a healthy wage, eat in rather nice restaurants in Brussels and Strasbourg and insult other European leaders.
I don't vote for UKIP, Farage said he wanted to hold the EU to account for their profligate spending, but within one term in Brussels he was refusing to have his parties spending audited or otherwise scrutinised. As I said earlier, the MEPS don't put forward legislation, they scrutinise the laws that the unelected commissioners create. This is he opposite of the UK parliament where the elected commons and cabinet create legislation and he unelected lords scrutinise it. Any MP can put forward a private members bill for consideration, so the power to legislate doesn't just lie in the hands of the cabinet.
The British system of government has many flaws, but it is more democratic and therefore more accountable than the EU system.
all very interesting but what has the EU forced on us that has proven to be detrimental? regulations re single market are necessary as how would the market work otherwise? just a UK exporting to the USA has to conform to US rules on safety conformity etc.
the only rules the EU has forced on us seem to be HS, employment and the environment, i do recall the UK used to pump raw sewage onto our beaches, the EU forced us to clean up, same with vehicle emissions, where tighter regulation would have saved VW billions.
As for immigration, we alone have produced a certain sector of society (maybe 2m people) who are not willing or even capable of working in manual jobs, so these jobs are filled by east europeans, who else is picking our fruit, looking after our elderly or working in our factories?0 -
I see economic prosperity as the key to everything so could never place it 2nd on a list of priorities.
Have you ever paid more for something because you thought it would work better than the cheaper thing?
Slightly facetious argument on my part. However there many things we do that don't make economic sense, but we feel are important - have a baby? care for the elderly?If we have an Out vote Cameron and Osborne will be out on their ears and the new Govt will be led by Brexiteers so yes they should have a plan for negotiating our departure.
So essentially we have to look at the Leave Tories and ignore the UKIP and Labour arguments at least until the next election. Boris wants to renegotiate our partnership with the EU and possibly rejoin on better terms, Gove wants more power for UK courts, reduce immigration and renegotiated trade deals. I have no idea what Ian Duncan Smith wants.0 -
https://next.ft.com/content/09668b3e-23 ... 1776a5124dFrench officials are wary of Brexit contagion spreading to other member states and the lift it would provide to anti-EU insurgents like the National Front’s Marine Le Pen. They are determined to send a tough and punitive message to show divorce will be costly for Britain.
And people still think we'll get out on good terms?0 -
bobmcstuff wrote:https://next.ft.com/content/09668b3e-2357-11e6-9d4d-c11776a5124dFrench officials are wary of Brexit contagion spreading to other member states and the lift it would provide to anti-EU insurgents like the National Front’s Marine Le Pen. They are determined to send a tough and punitive message to show divorce will be costly for Britain.
And people still think we'll get out on good terms?
So we should stay in because the bullies say so? :roll:
French politicians have a history of being able to control their electorate. The perfect example being what is occurring over there this week!
Upon an exit there will be many gallic huffs but when their farmers, their wine industry, and any other affected industries are protesting in the way they are famous for, against their governments actions that are hurting them, with the added pressure of it being a presidential election year (2017), common sense to bring a sensible trade arrangement will prevail rather than bring their own country to its knees.0 -
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We should ask Mr Keighley to tell us if that report is unbiased.Rick Chasey wrote:0 -
Coopster the 1st wrote:bobmcstuff wrote:https://next.ft.com/content/09668b3e-2357-11e6-9d4d-c11776a5124dFrench officials are wary of Brexit contagion spreading to other member states and the lift it would provide to anti-EU insurgents like the National Front’s Marine Le Pen. They are determined to send a tough and punitive message to show divorce will be costly for Britain.
And people still think we'll get out on good terms?
So we should stay in because the bullies say so? :roll:
French politicians have a history of being able to control their electorate. The perfect example being what is occurring over there this week!
Upon an exit there will be many gallic huffs but when their farmers, their wine industry, and any other affected industries are protesting in the way they are famous for, against their governments actions that are hurting them, with the added pressure of it being a presidential election year (2017), common sense to bring a sensible trade arrangement will prevail rather than bring their own country to its knees.
you dont know that would happen, a more likely scenario would be we d carry-on importing EU goods (we d have no choice, or they d be shortages in our shops and showrooms or inflation would rise with increased duty) either way the UK consumer would nt like this.
Meanwhile, EU manufacturing industry (unlike us, they ve still got one) would soon step in and make the few goods we sell to the EU.
leaving us with ... what exactly?0 -
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briantrumpet wrote:
It is a good point but selective reporting. The same team found that the government's pro EU financial scare statements were equally erroneous and prone to assumptions that were unclear and/or misleading and arbitrarily chosen.
The big difference seems to be that one side wants to prove that leaving EU is a good thing, whereas the other side just wants to prove that it will be a bad thing. Hence, the focus either way is about leaving, not the benefits of staying. I sense this going to a 'Remain' vote but that the rancorous feelings will also remain for some considerable time to come.0 -
There was a pro exit bloke Andrew Lilico interviewed on BBC World at One on Wednesday lunchtime. He is chairman of an outfit called Economists For Britain. It was the day the leavers were ranting about an IFS report as they didn't like the facts, whereas this guy was saying eh hold on, the IFS is independent, not best tactic to attack facts just because they counter your argument.
If YCBA the interview is on iPlayer Radio 4 from about 1.09pm, just after more nonsense from Mr Sidelined Farage.
Anyroads, one of his arguments appears to be that while yes there will be short term negative impact on UK finances, but by 2030 the UK should be growing faster (than something unspecified). Eh? 2030 is 14 years away. You really think 14 years of self inflicted economic woe is a worthwhile tradeoff for a vague hope that in 2030 the UK might be better off than it would be staying in?
The lunatics are indeed looking to take over the asylum.0 -
I think the main point is that whichever side is using facts is that facts are about now or the past...whereas they are not necessarily a clear indicator as to what will happen unless mixed with a number of assumptions as no one knows really what will happen...0
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Whilst if we stay in, in 2030 the UK will be truly f***ed.
More immigration (unsustainable), more federalism from the anti democratic EU and more diktats from the self feeding bureaucratic monster that is the EU.
I LOVE Europe, I love visiting the countries that make up the continent of Europe and I love the diversity.
But I HATE the anti democratic nature of the self serving wasteful and dictatorial EU juggernaut.
Wake up! Think! Open your eyes, read, analyse and use your brains to dissect exactly what this EU thing is..Outside the rat race and proud of it0 -
orraloon wrote:There was a pro exit bloke Andrew Lilico interviewed on BBC World at One on Wednesday lunchtime. He is chairman of an outfit called Economists For Britain. It was the day the leavers were ranting about an IFS report as they didn't like the facts, whereas this guy was saying eh hold on, the IFS is independent, not best tactic to attack facts just because they counter your argument.
They're limbering up for when they lose.
Can blame it on the world being unfair etc.0 -
The last refuge of the lefty automaton when they can't see the reality - they resort to the default position of pointless sound bites, demonstrated beautifully by Rick Chasey...Outside the rat race and proud of it0
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Welcome. Though you might find you'll get better engagement if you try discussing the issues rather than trying to insult people.ukiboy wrote:The last refuge of the lefty automaton when they can't see the reality - they resort to the default position of pointless sound bites, demonstrated beautifully by Rick Chasey...0 -
Hi Briantrumpet,
Apologies for my casual approach. I hope you are having a good start to your weekend (and I hope Rick is too). It's an emotive subject so sorry for going in with both my barrels blazing...
Ok, so let's chat and discuss the pertinent points in this EU referendum thing.Outside the rat race and proud of it0 -
Pertinent points?ukiboy wrote:Ok, so let's chat and discuss the pertinent points in this EU referendum thing.
Okay. On one hand we have doomsday project fear. On the other we have dreamland wishful thinking.
Bottom line. Do you want a united states of Europe and a common currency? Yes, or no?The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I made my mind up..
Voting Leave.
I think it will be a Vote remain, something like 53 / 47, but 1, I want who ever leads this country next to have a mandate for change, 2 we need to stop the ever expansion of Europe, because the south east of England (where 60% of the population live) isn't big enough for 10% increase in net migration, 3 I genuinely think the whole idea of "club Europe" is outdated in a global economy where people don't actually work for companies, customers, suppliers etc based in one place.0 -
I'm voting leave. I've weighed up the pro's and the con's and leave makes the most sense to me.
I cannot entertain a situation where a foreign unaccountable elite calls the shots.
Juncker et al are in no fit state to call the shots IMHO..Outside the rat race and proud of it0 -
I made my mind up...
Vote Remain
I think we will vote to leave. Cameron will have to walk. How the heck can we send a complete lame duck to negotiate our new brave world. Merkel will probably be a bit sad, Hollande less so (because it will distract from his own worries).
Tory infighting. New leader, my money's on Boris because the others will be tainted by Cameron. Gove might be Foreign Sec, whatever. Farage cock-a-hoop, but then thinking "now what?".
Tories re-negotiate our brave new world. Everything is awesome. Or not, no-one knows. Or cares. Donald Trump (the new leader of the free world) refuses to talk to PM Boris because 1: Boris sounds like a Russian name and 2: Is Britain the boring bit attached to my golf courses?
Europe in turmoil. Germans demand to leave, after all they are the only ones making anything. Apart from our leccy, which we are buying from France.
Russia invades Ukraine. EU over.
(with apologies to diy)Ecrasez l’infame0 -
ukiboy wrote:I'm voting leave.
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I cannot entertain a situation where a foreign unaccountable elite calls the shots.
Surprise surprise. User name just a wee bit of a clue there.
Our own posh boy old Etonian unaccountable elite are so much better for the average Joe, dontcha know.
These shenanigans have got naff all to do with economics, sovereignty (whatever that might be in a globalised world), immigration / xenophobia / racism / take your pick, is all about Tory party factional infighting.
Osborne earlier this week in Parliament in response to some opposition jibes (paraphrasing), "I'm well aware of the divisions in our party, that's why we're having the referendum.
And there you have it...0 -
ukiboy wrote:I'm voting leave. I've weighed up the pro's and the con's and leave makes the most sense to me.
I cannot entertain a situation where a foreign unaccountable elite calls the shots.
Juncker et al are in no fit state to call the shots IMHO..
See my post earlier about being ruled by Brussels. How exactly are Juncker and his mob calling the shots? We are in no danger of adopting the Euro and have veto over anything game changing. All the important stuff that really affects day to day living...housing, healthcare, education, transport etc is still well within control of national politics. EU laws are largely just noise compared to the things that really shape life here and the same for the other EU nations.0 -
So here's an example on a similar line that really gets my goat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfmAY6M6aA
Its monty python esc "what did the romans ever do for us" with a EU/ECHR slant.
No mention of the Bill of Rights 1689 and English charter of 1215, which actually established freedom of speech, freedom of religion, a right to a fairer trial (it was 1689).0 -
diy wrote:So here's an example on a similar line that really gets my goat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptfmAY6M6aA
Its monty python esc "what did the romans ever do for us" with a EU/ECHR slant.
No mention of the Bill of Rights 1689 and English charter of 1215, which actually established freedom of speech, freedom of religion, a right to a fairer trial (it was 1689).
Did you watch the whole clip? It mentions the Magna Carta and how it established some freedoms before the ECHR. It also mentions that the British were instrumental, partly through experience, in establishing the ECHR after the war. The clip does not mention the EU, focusing primarily on the ECHR.0 -
So who here knows someone who now lives in the EU because of the free movement of labour that they'd rather not live in the UK?0
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Rick Chasey wrote:So who here knows someone who now lives in the EU because of the free movement of labour that they'd rather not live in the UK?
Can think of a few people who probably think that of me... :oops:We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Haha I meant "lives in the UK as a result of free movement of labour on the EU."
So more likely me
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Well not anymore.0
