BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
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It looked from that article I posted about why we won't rejoin is that despite the sentiments you refer to, a lot of people don't care that much about the issue that it would make them vote for a particular party who made it a part of their policy.Stevo_666 said:
My hopes, whatever they might be, are beside the point. I'm explaining that both main parties are missing a trick. Ignoring public opinion is generally a poor strategy for a political party.rjsterry said:
You are still too hopeful. The main parties have no interest in this.Stevo_666 said:
Just link to the poll then.rjsterry said:
The data is from a poll. Which just happens to be part of an opinion piece in the Guardian.Stevo_666 said:
No, actual polling rather opinion pieces in the Guardian.rjsterry said:
Like this, you mean?Stevo_666 said:
He's an ardent Brexit fan so worth viewing the article in that context. His argument seems to be that the last few years economic performance have been underwhelming, and Brexit has caused problems for SMEs, but it's not been bad enough, especially in comparison to the performance in the EU, to persuade people to want to rejoin.rjsterry said:Stevo_666 said:
As usual no mention of what these mysterious "opportunities" might be.pangolin said:
He seems to be echoing many on here who have said it's not a catastrophe but things are just a bit shitter than they would be (and with no real benefits).Stevo_666 said:
I don't care whose favourite economics wroter he is, he seems to have got it right in this specific case. Which specific bits of the article do you disagree with?rick_chasey said:
Larry Elliot is probably Corbyn's favourite economics writer.Stevo_666 said:Interesting article in the famously pro-Brexit Guardian about why we won't be rejoining. Seems quite balanced to me.
https://msn.com/en-gb/money/other/i-ve-got-news-for-those-who-say-brexit-is-a-disaster-it-isn-t-that-s-why-rejoining-is-just-a-pipe-dream/ar-AA1l19kk?cvid=c200ed369d2a4da9839d1859f5e1e922&ocid=winp2fptaskbarent&ei=6
If you were going to persuade @surrey_commuter that you are deep down a right winger and haven't followed the Tory party down the (old fashioned view of) left wing populism, you're not doing a very good job.
Brexit provided opportunities to do things differently but those opportunities have so far not been exploited.
The last 5 paragraphs are a bizarre take on how we have high immigration but that hasn't resulted in a right wing government. Eh?
Did you deliberately miss the point of the article? Which was that we won't be rejoining the EU.
Unfortunately for him and political leaders on either side of Parliament, public opinion is moving more towards rejoining than he would like.
In short: his point ignores public opinion.
https://theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/30/younger-britons-are-more-pro-eu-but-fixing-brexit-not-their-priority
I wouldn't get too hopeful.
It's interesting as both main parties are ignoring this when they could use it to their advantage.
https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/45910-britons-would-vote-rejoin-eu
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_the_United_Kingdom_rejoining_the_European_Union_(2020–present)
There's a chart of all polling in the latter link. Very clear trend.
There's one graph that shows it's not currently their top priority, based on a survey asking people to rank their priorities. Given how often those priorities have switched over the last few years, I don't think you can predict anything about people's future appetite for rejoining. I mean, we've seen a couple of examples of issues that weren't widely on people's radar being whipped into headline news and ministerial resignations.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Testingrjsterry said:
There's one graph that shows it's not currently their top priority, based on a survey asking people to rank their priorities. Given how often those priorities have switched over the last few years, I don't think you can predict anything about people's future appetite for rejoining. I mean, we've seen a couple of examples of issues that weren't widely on people's radar being whipped into headline news and ministerial resignations.Stevo_666 said:
It looked from that article I posted about why we won't rejoin is that despite the sentiments you refer to, a lot of people don't care that much about the issue that it would make them vote for a particular party who made it a part of their policy.rjsterry said:
My hopes, whatever they might be, are beside the point. I'm explaining that both main parties are missing a trick. Ignoring public opinion is generally a poor strategy for a political party.Stevo_666 said:
You are still too hopeful. The main parties have no interest in this.rjsterry said:
Just link to the poll then.Stevo_666 said:
The data is from a poll. Which just happens to be part of an opinion piece in the Guardian.rjsterry said:
No, actual polling rather opinion pieces in the Guardian.Stevo_666 said:
Like this, you mean?rjsterry said:
He's an ardent Brexit fan so worth viewing the article in that context. His argument seems to be that the last few years economic performance have been underwhelming, and Brexit has caused problems for SMEs, but it's not been bad enough, especially in comparison to the performance in the EU, to persuade people to want to rejoin.Stevo_666 said:pangolin said:
He seems to be echoing many on here who have said it's not a catastrophe but things are just a bit shitter than they would be (and with no real benefits).Stevo_666 said:
I don't care whose favourite economics wroter he is, he seems to have got it right in this specific case. Which specific bits of the article do you disagree with?rick_chasey said:
Larry Elliot is probably Corbyn's favourite economics writer.Stevo_666 said:Interesting article in the famously pro-Brexit Guardian about why we won't be rejoining. Seems quite balanced to me.
https://msn.com/en-gb/money/other/i-ve-got-news-for-those-who-say-brexit-is-a-disaster-it-isn-t-that-s-why-rejoining-is-just-a-pipe-dream/ar-AA1l19kk?cvid=c200ed369d2a4da9839d1859f5e1e922&ocid=winp2fptaskbarent&ei=6
If you were going to persuade @surrey_commuter that you are deep down a right winger and haven't followed the Tory party down the (old fashioned view of) left wing populism, you're not doing a very good job.
As usual no mention of what these mysterious "opportunities" might be.
The last 5 paragraphs are a bizarre take on how we have high immigration but that hasn't resulted in a right wing government. Eh?
Did you deliberately miss the point of the article? Which was that we won't be rejoining the EU.
Unfortunately for him and political leaders on either side of Parliament, public opinion is moving more towards rejoining than he would like.
In short: his point ignores public opinion.
https://theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/30/younger-britons-are-more-pro-eu-but-fixing-brexit-not-their-priority
I wouldn't get too hopeful.
It's interesting as both main parties are ignoring this when they could use it to their advantage.
https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/45910-britons-would-vote-rejoin-eu
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_the_United_Kingdom_rejoining_the_European_Union_(2020–present)
There's a chart of all polling in the latter link. Very clear trend.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
Surely you can tell the difference between me and Stevo?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
On the subject of whether it is anyone's priority to join, leaving was something that hardly ever featured in the electorate's priorities. It was always really an internal squabble that Farage turned into a civil war and agitated enough that we all got dragged in.0
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At least it finally sorted out the divisions in the Conservative party once and for all.Pross said:On the subject of whether it is anyone's priority to join, leaving was something that hardly ever featured in the electorate's priorities. It was always really an internal squabble that Farage turned into a civil war and agitated enough that we all got dragged in.
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The point was that we won't be leaving because Brexit has not been the disaster that many predicted and hoped. You then started talking about right wing governements and immigration. It was in the article but was not the point I was making and clearly I can't blank out the bits of the article that are relevant to my point. You're free to make a separate point as you did but don't expect me to be interested as it doesn't address the point that I made.pangolin said:
This was my reply to your first opinion piece StevoStevo_666 said:
Read Pango's posts above and tell me what you think of his attempt to debate the point that I was making. Mind you, I think I need to stop feeding him nowdavebradswmb said:
You said I was debating the wrong things, and, strangely, didn't want to engage in debating these points (or seemingly any of the content of the opinion piece other than the headline).pangolin said:He seems to be echoing many on here who have said it's not a catastrophe but things are just a bit shitter than they would be (and with no real benefits).
"Brexit provided opportunities to do things differently but those opportunities have so far not been exploited."
As usual no mention of what these mysterious "opportunities" might be.
The last 5 paragraphs are a bizarre take on how we have high immigration but that hasn't resulted in a right wing government. Eh?
Happy to debate them if you are.
So going back to my point, what makes you think that Brexit is so bad that we are going to rejoin?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
😳🥵😰😨🥶😱😢🥺🤮💩Stevo_666 said:
The point was that we won't be leaving because Brexit has not been the disaster that many predicted and hoped. You then started talking about right wing governements and immigration. It was in the article but was not the point I was making and clearly I can't blank out the bits of the article that are relevant to my point. You're free to make a separate point as you did but don't expect me to be interested as it doesn't address the point that I made.pangolin said:
This was my reply to your first opinion piece StevoStevo_666 said:
Read Pango's posts above and tell me what you think of his attempt to debate the point that I was making. Mind you, I think I need to stop feeding him nowdavebradswmb said:
You said I was debating the wrong things, and, strangely, didn't want to engage in debating these points (or seemingly any of the content of the opinion piece other than the headline).pangolin said:He seems to be echoing many on here who have said it's not a catastrophe but things are just a bit shitter than they would be (and with no real benefits).
"Brexit provided opportunities to do things differently but those opportunities have so far not been exploited."
As usual no mention of what these mysterious "opportunities" might be.
The last 5 paragraphs are a bizarre take on how we have high immigration but that hasn't resulted in a right wing government. Eh?
Happy to debate them if you are.
So going back to my point, what makes you think that Brexit is so bad that we are going to rejoin?0 -
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Lovin' the "I won't discuss your point but you must discuss my point.".The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.4 -
Nobody is forcing anyone to reply or debate a point. Works both ways. However Pango seems to have got a bit upset about it, despite me making my point firstpblakeney said:Lovin' the "I won't discuss your point but you must discuss my point.".
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Thanks for your valuable contribution to the debate...Pango will be sending you a cheque shortlywebboo said:
😳🥵😰😨🥶😱😢🥺🤮💩Stevo_666 said:
The point was that we won't be leaving because Brexit has not been the disaster that many predicted and hoped. You then started talking about right wing governements and immigration. It was in the article but was not the point I was making and clearly I can't blank out the bits of the article that are relevant to my point. You're free to make a separate point as you did but don't expect me to be interested as it doesn't address the point that I made.pangolin said:
This was my reply to your first opinion piece StevoStevo_666 said:
Read Pango's posts above and tell me what you think of his attempt to debate the point that I was making. Mind you, I think I need to stop feeding him nowdavebradswmb said:
You said I was debating the wrong things, and, strangely, didn't want to engage in debating these points (or seemingly any of the content of the opinion piece other than the headline).pangolin said:He seems to be echoing many on here who have said it's not a catastrophe but things are just a bit shitter than they would be (and with no real benefits).
"Brexit provided opportunities to do things differently but those opportunities have so far not been exploited."
As usual no mention of what these mysterious "opportunities" might be.
The last 5 paragraphs are a bizarre take on how we have high immigration but that hasn't resulted in a right wing government. Eh?
Happy to debate them if you are.
So going back to my point, what makes you think that Brexit is so bad that we are going to rejoin?
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
😎Stevo_666 said:
Thanks for your valuable contribution to the debate...Pango will be sending you a cheque shortlywebboo said:
😳🥵😰😨🥶😱😢🥺🤮💩Stevo_666 said:
The point was that we won't be leaving because Brexit has not been the disaster that many predicted and hoped. You then started talking about right wing governements and immigration. It was in the article but was not the point I was making and clearly I can't blank out the bits of the article that are relevant to my point. You're free to make a separate point as you did but don't expect me to be interested as it doesn't address the point that I made.pangolin said:
This was my reply to your first opinion piece StevoStevo_666 said:
Read Pango's posts above and tell me what you think of his attempt to debate the point that I was making. Mind you, I think I need to stop feeding him nowdavebradswmb said:
You said I was debating the wrong things, and, strangely, didn't want to engage in debating these points (or seemingly any of the content of the opinion piece other than the headline).pangolin said:He seems to be echoing many on here who have said it's not a catastrophe but things are just a bit shitter than they would be (and with no real benefits).
"Brexit provided opportunities to do things differently but those opportunities have so far not been exploited."
As usual no mention of what these mysterious "opportunities" might be.
The last 5 paragraphs are a bizarre take on how we have high immigration but that hasn't resulted in a right wing government. Eh?
Happy to debate them if you are.
So going back to my point, what makes you think that Brexit is so bad that we are going to rejoin?0 -
You posted an article, said it was balanced, and asked what someone disagreed with in the article. Then when someone said what they disagreed with in the article, you then decreed that you had made a specific point.Stevo_666 said:
Nobody is forcing anyone to reply or debate a point. Works both ways. However Pango seems to have got a bit upset about it, despite me making my point firstpblakeney said:Lovin' the "I won't discuss your point but you must discuss my point.".
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Dear me Stevo you know you're reaching when you start saying people disagreeing with you are upset.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
And you still haven't contributed anything to the debate. I think we know why....pangolin said:Dear me Stevo you know you're reaching when you start saying people disagreeing with you are upset.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Wrong, I made a specific point and used the article to support it. I've already explained that once.kingstongraham said:
You posted an article, said it was balanced, and asked what someone disagreed with in the article. Then when someone said what they disagreed with in the article, you then decreed that you had made a specific point.Stevo_666 said:
Nobody is forcing anyone to reply or debate a point. Works both ways. However Pango seems to have got a bit upset about it, despite me making my point firstpblakeney said:Lovin' the "I won't discuss your point but you must discuss my point.".
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Anyone fancy actually debating the original point that I made rather than half arsed trolling attempts? "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0
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Have done. You didn't come back with anything other than one graph which showed something different from what you are claiming. It's a very thin argument. Leaving didn't have broad public interest until the referendum. Yet here we are. Rejoining isn't top of people's priorities at the moment as it's not being offered by either main party, but there is widespread support for moving in that direction. As pointed out about three times now, that's a wedge issue for anyone looking to capitalise on it for the election after next. It seems unlikely that the current Tories could ever bring themselves to do that but they did once before. Or maybe there will be a new centre right party by then.Stevo_666 said:Anyone fancy actually debating the original point that I made rather than half arsed trolling attempts?
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I've asked how we are meant to put forward an opinion on an article headline without commenting on the content of the article.Stevo_666 said:
And you still haven't contributed anything to the debate. I think we know why....pangolin said:Dear me Stevo you know you're reaching when you start saying people disagreeing with you are upset.
- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
You didn't respond funnily enoughpangolin said:
Do you honestly expect people to comment just on the headline and not the authors rationale? Why even post the article?Stevo_666 said:
I take it you don't want to or can't make any sensible comments on the point I was making then. I didn't expect anything else.pangolin said:
Brian if you do comment on the main point please be sure not to mention any of the reasoning behind it, those are out of scope for this question.Stevo_666 said:
The article he wrote definitely isnt to your liking. Any thoughts on the main point made in that article?briantrumpet said:
Be careful what you wish for. He has an agenda, and I just have a suspicion it's not one you'd like.Stevo_666 said:
Did you deliberately miss the point of the article? Which was that we won't be rejoining the EU.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussion/comment/21041983/#Comment_21041983Stevo_666 said:
Wrong, I made a specific point and used the article to support it. I've already explained that once.kingstongraham said:
You posted an article, said it was balanced, and asked what someone disagreed with in the article. Then when someone said what they disagreed with in the article, you then decreed that you had made a specific point.Stevo_666 said:
Nobody is forcing anyone to reply or debate a point. Works both ways. However Pango seems to have got a bit upset about it, despite me making my point firstpblakeney said:Lovin' the "I won't discuss your point but you must discuss my point.".
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You guys are like kids who can't resist a merry-go-round.0
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It wasn't aimed at yourjsterry said:
Have done. You didn't come back with anything other than one graph which showed something different from what you are claiming. It's a very thin argument. Leaving didn't have broad public interest until the referendum. Yet here we are. Rejoining isn't top of people's priorities at the moment as it's not being offered by either main party, but there is widespread support for moving in that direction. As pointed out about three times now, that's a wedge issue for anyone looking to capitalise on it for the election after next. It seems unlikely that the current Tories could ever bring themselves to do that but they did once before. Or maybe there will be a new centre right party by then.Stevo_666 said:Anyone fancy actually debating the original point that I made rather than half arsed trolling attempts?
While there the polls show that there is a degree of 'Bregret' or whatever you want to call it, there also does not seem to be a strong enough desire to rejoin, otherwise surely one one of the major parties would have picked up on this and made it a vote winner?
There is also the point that once you get past any initial desire to put things back to how they were, once the realisation sets in that it can't go back to that given EU rules for new joiners including adoption of the Euro, full FOM etc.
Also I doubt there will be a new centre right party: many people predicted and/or hoped for a Labour split when Corbyn and the hard left took over the party, but it never happened. I think there will be a realignment of some sort over time, which is probably not an uncommon view."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Some people can't resist trying to do a little trolling and I have to confess I should just ignore them moreTheBigBean said:You guys are like kids who can't resist a merry-go-round.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Like I said. We managed to leave when there was no pre-existing broad public pressure for it so there's no reason the same couldn't be done in reverse. Immigration isn't the main public priority either yet we have a party pretending they want to reduce it as their flagship policy. Like the leave campaign You just need someone to sell it as the answer to all their problems. Don't worry about details like adopting the Euro.Stevo_666 said:
It wasn't aimed at yourjsterry said:
Have done. You didn't come back with anything other than one graph which showed something different from what you are claiming. It's a very thin argument. Leaving didn't have broad public interest until the referendum. Yet here we are. Rejoining isn't top of people's priorities at the moment as it's not being offered by either main party, but there is widespread support for moving in that direction. As pointed out about three times now, that's a wedge issue for anyone looking to capitalise on it for the election after next. It seems unlikely that the current Tories could ever bring themselves to do that but they did once before. Or maybe there will be a new centre right party by then.Stevo_666 said:Anyone fancy actually debating the original point that I made rather than half arsed trolling attempts?
While there the polls show that there is a degree of 'Bregret' or whatever you want to call it, there also does not seem to be a strong enough desire to rejoin, otherwise surely one one of the major parties would have picked up on this and made it a vote winner?
There is also the point that once you get past any initial desire to put things back to how they were, once the realisation sets in that it can't go back to that given EU rules for new joiners including adoption of the Euro, full FOM etc.
Also I doubt there will be a new centre right party: many people predicted and/or hoped for a Labour split when Corbyn and the hard left took over the party, but it never happened. I think there will be a realignment of some sort over time, which is probably not an uncommon view.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
rjsterry said:
Like I said. We managed to leave when there was no pre-existing broad public pressure for it so there's no reason the same couldn't be done in reverse. Immigration isn't the main public priority either yet we have a party pretending they want to reduce it as their flagship policy. Like the leave campaign You just need someone to sell it as the answer to all their problems. Don't worry about details like adopting the Euro.Stevo_666 said:
It wasn't aimed at yourjsterry said:
Have done. You didn't come back with anything other than one graph which showed something different from what you are claiming. It's a very thin argument. Leaving didn't have broad public interest until the referendum. Yet here we are. Rejoining isn't top of people's priorities at the moment as it's not being offered by either main party, but there is widespread support for moving in that direction. As pointed out about three times now, that's a wedge issue for anyone looking to capitalise on it for the election after next. It seems unlikely that the current Tories could ever bring themselves to do that but they did once before. Or maybe there will be a new centre right party by then.Stevo_666 said:Anyone fancy actually debating the original point that I made rather than half arsed trolling attempts?
While there the polls show that there is a degree of 'Bregret' or whatever you want to call it, there also does not seem to be a strong enough desire to rejoin, otherwise surely one one of the major parties would have picked up on this and made it a vote winner?
There is also the point that once you get past any initial desire to put things back to how they were, once the realisation sets in that it can't go back to that given EU rules for new joiners including adoption of the Euro, full FOM etc.
Also I doubt there will be a new centre right party: many people predicted and/or hoped for a Labour split when Corbyn and the hard left took over the party, but it never happened. I think there will be a realignment of some sort over time, which is probably not an uncommon view.
And I'd not read too much into Starmer ruling out re-joining, pragmatist that he is. As mentioned previously, I think we'll find lots of bilateral 'improvements' where we start co-operating much better (aka undoing the most nonsensical bits of Brexit), and by then we'll be in a different place. Though I'll not hold my breath, let's see where we are if Labour get a second term.
It's no surprise that Elliot wants to keep the barricades up, so that his socialist utopia might one day become a reality. At least he's been utterly consistent about his aims. The fact that Wrecker Frost is concerned that Brexit might be imperilled might suggest that Elliot's confidence/hope is misplaced.
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