BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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Comments

  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 17,689

    A "cascade of export bans" of staple foodstuffs... are we really sure that relying to a very large degree on importing our most basic food needs is a great idea?

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/may/17/ukraine-farming-group-warns-of-cascade-of-export-bans-without-new-grain-routes

    would you also impose an export ban on UK farm produce?

    Not sure what that's got to do with my point. I'd not blame countries who protect the food supply for their own citizens.
    I don't believe we will starve as the UK is relatively rich and will be able to purchase food at the prevailing world market rate. If we grew it ourselves surely we would have to stop producers from selling it for the best price on the world market or we would be no better off?

    Did I ever mention I have an allotment :)

    I suspect you're right that we won't starve, but (in case you haven't guessed) I still don't think it's a good idea to leave domestic food production at the mercy of world markets, as the current situation illustrates how quickly things can go wrong. And in those circumstances, would it be right that our buying power could cause even more starvation elsewhere in the world, if we've taken the short-sighted view of not encouraging (or at least maintaining) our own domestic production in the longer term?

    As Germany has discovered with its energy needs, if you have reduced internal resources, you expose yourself much more acutely to international disruptions. I still am sure that Putin's aim with Ukraine was to leverage food production, along with energy supplies, to increase Russia's ability to screw the rest of the world for its own benefit.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,513

    john80 said:

    ddraver said:

    The bit of the 'trusted trader' scheme we're proposing that confuses me is if I sell a product to a company in NI how do I know it's staying in NI and not being sold on into ROI or the EU?

    I can fully understand why the EU doesn't think this is a goer.

    I think that's where the "Trusted" part of the definition comes from. There would be a lot of work required to vet and accredit suitable traders for the scheme to work. But it's probably a "good" idea that will demonstrate the value of the old adage "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good".

    I can fully understand why the EU wouldn't trust anything proposed by the UK given the insults and threats over the last few years.
    But the border between ROI and NI is porous I don't see how it's workable.
    It's a challenging concept.

    It doesn't matter if it's sold in NI and then driven to Ireland by the final use customer (well...it does, but for most goods this is going to happen to, it doesn't). It does matter if it is taken to a warehouse and then redistributed for sale in Ireland (or anywhere outside of GB)
    john80 said:

    The bit of the 'trusted trader' scheme we're proposing that confuses me is if I sell a product to a company in NI how do I know it's staying in NI and not being sold on into ROI or the EU?

    I can fully understand why the EU doesn't think this is a goer.

    Al Capone did not get convicted for violent acts. He got done for tax evasion. There is a lesson in there somewhere for the EU. Doubt they will get it though as there dream is fall all goods in Northern Ireland to come from the EU and nothing from the UK. They are a protectionist organisation after all.
    I don't get this
    The point I am trying to get at is regulation aimed at getting business to self comply is usually the best form of regulation. In the case of goods the paperwork trail is pretty good to capture non compliance. Criminals will always be criminals but all businesses want is a level playing field and governments want a high percentage of compliance.
    Try and see the EU as a walled garden. By building a large wall (regulations, border controls and tarifs) the EU allows member states to operate as one single market. A seller in Paris can serve a customer in Madrid as easily as a seller in London can serve a customer in Manchester.

    If you are outside the wall then this is no longer the case and you have to follow all of the rules that the EU stipulates.

    They are not bullying the UK as that is the case for all non-EU members.

    This is precisely what you voted for and I really think that you should own it
    That's fair enough if someone in GB is complaining about the walled garden. The problem is that NI is something of a special case.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,597

    john80 said:

    ddraver said:

    The bit of the 'trusted trader' scheme we're proposing that confuses me is if I sell a product to a company in NI how do I know it's staying in NI and not being sold on into ROI or the EU?

    I can fully understand why the EU doesn't think this is a goer.

    I think that's where the "Trusted" part of the definition comes from. There would be a lot of work required to vet and accredit suitable traders for the scheme to work. But it's probably a "good" idea that will demonstrate the value of the old adage "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good".

    I can fully understand why the EU wouldn't trust anything proposed by the UK given the insults and threats over the last few years.
    But the border between ROI and NI is porous I don't see how it's workable.
    It's a challenging concept.

    It doesn't matter if it's sold in NI and then driven to Ireland by the final use customer (well...it does, but for most goods this is going to happen to, it doesn't). It does matter if it is taken to a warehouse and then redistributed for sale in Ireland (or anywhere outside of GB)
    john80 said:

    The bit of the 'trusted trader' scheme we're proposing that confuses me is if I sell a product to a company in NI how do I know it's staying in NI and not being sold on into ROI or the EU?

    I can fully understand why the EU doesn't think this is a goer.

    Al Capone did not get convicted for violent acts. He got done for tax evasion. There is a lesson in there somewhere for the EU. Doubt they will get it though as there dream is fall all goods in Northern Ireland to come from the EU and nothing from the UK. They are a protectionist organisation after all.
    I don't get this
    The point I am trying to get at is regulation aimed at getting business to self comply is usually the best form of regulation. In the case of goods the paperwork trail is pretty good to capture non compliance. Criminals will always be criminals but all businesses want is a level playing field and governments want a high percentage of compliance.
    Try and see the EU as a walled garden. By building a large wall (regulations, border controls and tarifs) the EU allows member states to operate as one single market. A seller in Paris can serve a customer in Madrid as easily as a seller in London can serve a customer in Manchester.

    If you are outside the wall then this is no longer the case and you have to follow all of the rules that the EU stipulates.

    They are not bullying the UK as that is the case for all non-EU members.

    This is precisely what you voted for and I really think that you should own it
    That's fair enough if someone in GB is complaining about the walled garden. The problem is that NI is something of a special case.
    N.I. is only a special case because Brits think the U.K. is a single island. It is not.
    We have either a border with Ireland or we don't have borders. Pick one.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    pblakeney said:

    john80 said:

    ddraver said:

    The bit of the 'trusted trader' scheme we're proposing that confuses me is if I sell a product to a company in NI how do I know it's staying in NI and not being sold on into ROI or the EU?

    I can fully understand why the EU doesn't think this is a goer.

    I think that's where the "Trusted" part of the definition comes from. There would be a lot of work required to vet and accredit suitable traders for the scheme to work. But it's probably a "good" idea that will demonstrate the value of the old adage "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good".

    I can fully understand why the EU wouldn't trust anything proposed by the UK given the insults and threats over the last few years.
    But the border between ROI and NI is porous I don't see how it's workable.
    It's a challenging concept.

    It doesn't matter if it's sold in NI and then driven to Ireland by the final use customer (well...it does, but for most goods this is going to happen to, it doesn't). It does matter if it is taken to a warehouse and then redistributed for sale in Ireland (or anywhere outside of GB)
    john80 said:

    The bit of the 'trusted trader' scheme we're proposing that confuses me is if I sell a product to a company in NI how do I know it's staying in NI and not being sold on into ROI or the EU?

    I can fully understand why the EU doesn't think this is a goer.

    Al Capone did not get convicted for violent acts. He got done for tax evasion. There is a lesson in there somewhere for the EU. Doubt they will get it though as there dream is fall all goods in Northern Ireland to come from the EU and nothing from the UK. They are a protectionist organisation after all.
    I don't get this
    The point I am trying to get at is regulation aimed at getting business to self comply is usually the best form of regulation. In the case of goods the paperwork trail is pretty good to capture non compliance. Criminals will always be criminals but all businesses want is a level playing field and governments want a high percentage of compliance.
    Try and see the EU as a walled garden. By building a large wall (regulations, border controls and tarifs) the EU allows member states to operate as one single market. A seller in Paris can serve a customer in Madrid as easily as a seller in London can serve a customer in Manchester.

    If you are outside the wall then this is no longer the case and you have to follow all of the rules that the EU stipulates.

    They are not bullying the UK as that is the case for all non-EU members.

    This is precisely what you voted for and I really think that you should own it
    That's fair enough if someone in GB is complaining about the walled garden. The problem is that NI is something of a special case.
    N.I. is only a special case because Brits think the U.K. is a single island. It is not.
    We have either a border with Ireland or we don't have borders. Pick one.
    Personally I was happy with a border on Ireland and let the EU sort out the logistics as they were so keen on guys manning every road with their little clip boards. Given a week a few Irish would have been assaulted and the plan dropped. The UK was not too bothered and proposed checks away from borders. I can see why the UK chose to act as it did as it was in the majorities interests to avoid no deal.
  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,283
    john80 said:

    pblakeney said:

    john80 said:

    ddraver said:

    The bit of the 'trusted trader' scheme we're proposing that confuses me is if I sell a product to a company in NI how do I know it's staying in NI and not being sold on into ROI or the EU?

    I can fully understand why the EU doesn't think this is a goer.

    I think that's where the "Trusted" part of the definition comes from. There would be a lot of work required to vet and accredit suitable traders for the scheme to work. But it's probably a "good" idea that will demonstrate the value of the old adage "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good".

    I can fully understand why the EU wouldn't trust anything proposed by the UK given the insults and threats over the last few years.
    But the border between ROI and NI is porous I don't see how it's workable.
    It's a challenging concept.

    It doesn't matter if it's sold in NI and then driven to Ireland by the final use customer (well...it does, but for most goods this is going to happen to, it doesn't). It does matter if it is taken to a warehouse and then redistributed for sale in Ireland (or anywhere outside of GB)
    john80 said:

    The bit of the 'trusted trader' scheme we're proposing that confuses me is if I sell a product to a company in NI how do I know it's staying in NI and not being sold on into ROI or the EU?

    I can fully understand why the EU doesn't think this is a goer.

    Al Capone did not get convicted for violent acts. He got done for tax evasion. There is a lesson in there somewhere for the EU. Doubt they will get it though as there dream is fall all goods in Northern Ireland to come from the EU and nothing from the UK. They are a protectionist organisation after all.
    I don't get this
    The point I am trying to get at is regulation aimed at getting business to self comply is usually the best form of regulation. In the case of goods the paperwork trail is pretty good to capture non compliance. Criminals will always be criminals but all businesses want is a level playing field and governments want a high percentage of compliance.
    Try and see the EU as a walled garden. By building a large wall (regulations, border controls and tarifs) the EU allows member states to operate as one single market. A seller in Paris can serve a customer in Madrid as easily as a seller in London can serve a customer in Manchester.

    If you are outside the wall then this is no longer the case and you have to follow all of the rules that the EU stipulates.

    They are not bullying the UK as that is the case for all non-EU members.

    This is precisely what you voted for and I really think that you should own it
    That's fair enough if someone in GB is complaining about the walled garden. The problem is that NI is something of a special case.
    N.I. is only a special case because Brits think the U.K. is a single island. It is not.
    We have either a border with Ireland or we don't have borders. Pick one.
    Personally I was happy with a border on Ireland and let the EU sort out the logistics as they were so keen on guys manning every road with their little clip boards. Given a week a few Irish would have been assaulted and the plan dropped. The UK was not too bothered and proposed checks away from borders. I can see why the UK chose to act as it did as it was in the majorities interests to avoid no deal.
    Seems like a well thought through plan
    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,597
    john80 said:

    pblakeney said:

    john80 said:

    ddraver said:

    The bit of the 'trusted trader' scheme we're proposing that confuses me is if I sell a product to a company in NI how do I know it's staying in NI and not being sold on into ROI or the EU?

    I can fully understand why the EU doesn't think this is a goer.

    I think that's where the "Trusted" part of the definition comes from. There would be a lot of work required to vet and accredit suitable traders for the scheme to work. But it's probably a "good" idea that will demonstrate the value of the old adage "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good".

    I can fully understand why the EU wouldn't trust anything proposed by the UK given the insults and threats over the last few years.
    But the border between ROI and NI is porous I don't see how it's workable.
    It's a challenging concept.

    It doesn't matter if it's sold in NI and then driven to Ireland by the final use customer (well...it does, but for most goods this is going to happen to, it doesn't). It does matter if it is taken to a warehouse and then redistributed for sale in Ireland (or anywhere outside of GB)
    john80 said:

    The bit of the 'trusted trader' scheme we're proposing that confuses me is if I sell a product to a company in NI how do I know it's staying in NI and not being sold on into ROI or the EU?

    I can fully understand why the EU doesn't think this is a goer.

    Al Capone did not get convicted for violent acts. He got done for tax evasion. There is a lesson in there somewhere for the EU. Doubt they will get it though as there dream is fall all goods in Northern Ireland to come from the EU and nothing from the UK. They are a protectionist organisation after all.
    I don't get this
    The point I am trying to get at is regulation aimed at getting business to self comply is usually the best form of regulation. In the case of goods the paperwork trail is pretty good to capture non compliance. Criminals will always be criminals but all businesses want is a level playing field and governments want a high percentage of compliance.
    Try and see the EU as a walled garden. By building a large wall (regulations, border controls and tarifs) the EU allows member states to operate as one single market. A seller in Paris can serve a customer in Madrid as easily as a seller in London can serve a customer in Manchester.

    If you are outside the wall then this is no longer the case and you have to follow all of the rules that the EU stipulates.

    They are not bullying the UK as that is the case for all non-EU members.

    This is precisely what you voted for and I really think that you should own it
    That's fair enough if someone in GB is complaining about the walled garden. The problem is that NI is something of a special case.
    N.I. is only a special case because Brits think the U.K. is a single island. It is not.
    We have either a border with Ireland or we don't have borders. Pick one.
    Personally I was happy with a border on Ireland and let the EU sort out the logistics as they were so keen on guys manning every road with their little clip boards. Given a week a few Irish would have been assaulted and the plan dropped. The UK was not too bothered and proposed checks away from borders. I can see why the UK chose to act as it did as it was in the majorities interests to avoid no deal.
    Very good.
    Now explain the legal difference between Dublin/Belfast and Calais/Dover.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    john80 said:

    pblakeney said:

    john80 said:

    ddraver said:

    The bit of the 'trusted trader' scheme we're proposing that confuses me is if I sell a product to a company in NI how do I know it's staying in NI and not being sold on into ROI or the EU?

    I can fully understand why the EU doesn't think this is a goer.

    I think that's where the "Trusted" part of the definition comes from. There would be a lot of work required to vet and accredit suitable traders for the scheme to work. But it's probably a "good" idea that will demonstrate the value of the old adage "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good".

    I can fully understand why the EU wouldn't trust anything proposed by the UK given the insults and threats over the last few years.
    But the border between ROI and NI is porous I don't see how it's workable.
    It's a challenging concept.

    It doesn't matter if it's sold in NI and then driven to Ireland by the final use customer (well...it does, but for most goods this is going to happen to, it doesn't). It does matter if it is taken to a warehouse and then redistributed for sale in Ireland (or anywhere outside of GB)
    john80 said:

    The bit of the 'trusted trader' scheme we're proposing that confuses me is if I sell a product to a company in NI how do I know it's staying in NI and not being sold on into ROI or the EU?

    I can fully understand why the EU doesn't think this is a goer.

    Al Capone did not get convicted for violent acts. He got done for tax evasion. There is a lesson in there somewhere for the EU. Doubt they will get it though as there dream is fall all goods in Northern Ireland to come from the EU and nothing from the UK. They are a protectionist organisation after all.
    I don't get this
    The point I am trying to get at is regulation aimed at getting business to self comply is usually the best form of regulation. In the case of goods the paperwork trail is pretty good to capture non compliance. Criminals will always be criminals but all businesses want is a level playing field and governments want a high percentage of compliance.
    Try and see the EU as a walled garden. By building a large wall (regulations, border controls and tarifs) the EU allows member states to operate as one single market. A seller in Paris can serve a customer in Madrid as easily as a seller in London can serve a customer in Manchester.

    If you are outside the wall then this is no longer the case and you have to follow all of the rules that the EU stipulates.

    They are not bullying the UK as that is the case for all non-EU members.

    This is precisely what you voted for and I really think that you should own it
    That's fair enough if someone in GB is complaining about the walled garden. The problem is that NI is something of a special case.
    N.I. is only a special case because Brits think the U.K. is a single island. It is not.
    We have either a border with Ireland or we don't have borders. Pick one.
    Personally I was happy with a border on Ireland and let the EU sort out the logistics as they were so keen on guys manning every road with their little clip boards. Given a week a few Irish would have been assaulted and the plan dropped. The UK was not too bothered and proposed checks away from borders. I can see why the UK chose to act as it did as it was in the majorities interests to avoid no deal.
    The British Govt had a choice of a border in the Irish Sea or on the Irish border and after weighing up the pros and cons went for the sea. The only problem seems to be that they pretended they had not done so.

    Do we know if anybody has taken up Boris on his suggestion that any paperwork should be sent to him?
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866

    A "cascade of export bans" of staple foodstuffs... are we really sure that relying to a very large degree on importing our most basic food needs is a great idea?

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/may/17/ukraine-farming-group-warns-of-cascade-of-export-bans-without-new-grain-routes

    would you also impose an export ban on UK farm produce?

    Not sure what that's got to do with my point. I'd not blame countries who protect the food supply for their own citizens.
    I don't believe we will starve as the UK is relatively rich and will be able to purchase food at the prevailing world market rate. If we grew it ourselves surely we would have to stop producers from selling it for the best price on the world market or we would be no better off?

    Did I ever mention I have an allotment :)
    Proof that you're a townie! :D
    Country folk have a garden big enough to not need an allotment! B)
    that should be in the trivial things that cheer me up
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 17,689
    I guess this is a Brexit benefit: increased immigration.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/05/19/public-duped-long-term-visas-foreign-nationals-40pc-since-brexit/

    The number of foreign nationals granted visas to enter the UK long term has increased by 40 per cent since Brexit despite ministers’ pledges to take control of immigration, according to a new study.

    The research, by the Migration Watch think tank, found that long-term visas granted to non-UK nationals last year totalled 830,000 – up from around 600,000 before Brexit.

    Lower salary and skill thresholds for foreign workers, the widening classification of “shortage” jobs and the end of restrictions on students staying on to work after graduating have contributed to the surge.

    While the number of EU nationals who now need visas has dwindled to around 50,000 from a peak of around 280,000 in 2015-16, the number of non-EU nationals coming to the UK to work, study, resettle or live with their families has risen sharply.

    Some 210,000 – a quarter of the 830,000 granted – were work visas, up from the average of 160,000 per year for the period 2010 to 2020.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,217
    I don't get the commnt about the number of EU nationals that needed a visa peaking at 280,000 in 2015-16, I thought EU nationals didn't need a visa? Initially I assumed that the increase would be down mainly to the number of EU nationals that have opted to stay now needing visas. I'm also dubious of anything that Migration Watch comes up with, they strike me as a bunch of racists masquerading as a 'think tank' (how I hate that phrase!).
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,597
    edited May 2022

    I guess this is a Brexit benefit: increased immigration.

    ...

    It threw my Dad off kilter when I explained that Brexit meant more people of other ethnic origins coming into the country. Not what he voted for.

    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    pblakeney said:

    I guess this is a Brexit benefit: increased immigration.

    ...

    It threw my Dad off kilter when I explained that Brexit meant more people of other ethnic origins coming into the country. Not what he voted for.

    Yes, I have made this point to a few people. If you voted Brexit as a racist and specifically from a reduced immigration perspective…

    But they knew…
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    I have to laugh at the old racist trope. For those making these claims what percentage of the population do they think are actually racist. I mean proper racist where they want to treat another race as inferior. Not just old people falling foul of the miss use of language.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 17,689
    An interesting read re food supplies. And, I'd argue, another reason not to rely totally on the free market for our most fundamental needs.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/19/banks-collapsed-in-2008-food-system-same-producers-regulators

    One of the fastest cultural shifts in human history is the convergence towards a “Global Standard Diet”. While our food has become locally more diverse, globally it has become less diverse. Just four crops – wheat, rice, maize and soy – account for almost 60% of the calories grown by farmers. Their production is now highly concentrated in a handful of nations, including Russia and Ukraine. The Global Standard Diet is grown by the Global Standard Farm, supplied by the same corporations with the same packages of seed, chemicals and machinery, and vulnerable to the same environmental shocks.

    The food industry is becoming tightly coupled to the financial sector, increasing what scientists call the “network density” of the system, making it more susceptible to cascading failure. Around the world, trade barriers have come down and roads and ports upgraded, streamlining the global network. You might imagine that this smooth system would enhance food security. But it has allowed companies to shed the costs of warehousing and inventories, switching from stocks to flows. Mostly, this just-in-time strategy works. But if deliveries are interrupted or there’s a rapid surge in demand, shelves can suddenly empty.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,597
    edited May 2022
    john80 said:

    I have to laugh at the old racist trope. For those making these claims what percentage of the population do they think are actually racist. I mean proper racist where they want to treat another race as inferior. Not just old people falling foul of the miss use of language.

    My Dad is a racist and quite happy to admit it.
    More than a few in the pub after quaffing a few too. Only around the "right" people, natch.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,513
    edited May 2022

    I guess this is a Brexit benefit: increased immigration.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/05/19/public-duped-long-term-visas-foreign-nationals-40pc-since-brexit/

    The number of foreign nationals granted visas to enter the UK long term has increased by 40 per cent since Brexit despite ministers’ pledges to take control of immigration, according to a new study.

    The research, by the Migration Watch think tank, found that long-term visas granted to non-UK nationals last year totalled 830,000 – up from around 600,000 before Brexit.

    Lower salary and skill thresholds for foreign workers, the widening classification of “shortage” jobs and the end of restrictions on students staying on to work after graduating have contributed to the surge.

    While the number of EU nationals who now need visas has dwindled to around 50,000 from a peak of around 280,000 in 2015-16, the number of non-EU nationals coming to the UK to work, study, resettle or live with their families has risen sharply.

    Some 210,000 – a quarter of the 830,000 granted – were work visas, up from the average of 160,000 per year for the period 2010 to 2020.
    This was one of the reasons quite a few people e.g. Filipina nurses voted for Brexit
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    john80 said:

    I have to laugh at the old racist trope. For those making these claims what percentage of the population do they think are actually racist. I mean proper racist where they want to treat another race as inferior. Not just old people falling foul of the miss use of language.

    I explicitly used IF as a qualifier.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,348
    edited May 2022
    morstar said:

    john80 said:

    I have to laugh at the old racist trope. For those making these claims what percentage of the population do they think are actually racist. I mean proper racist where they want to treat another race as inferior. Not just old people falling foul of the miss use of language.

    I explicitly used IF as a qualifier.

    I don't

    10% of any country - fervant racists, zenophobes, nationalists - Ultras, Nazis, BNP, Blackshirts, Skinheads, MAGA, Charlotsville protesters, KKK, Gert Wilders/VVD- call them what you will...

    20% on top of that - people who range from quietly supportive to happy to look the other way but pretend they don't - UKIP - Tories, Repuclicans, Fox News, Picanninies/Watermelon Smiles/letter boxes etc
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver


  • Yes, although this all started off with a graph of actual bonuses paid and not promises to pay a bonus.

    Ya, markets were frothy last year.

    Not so, this year... eek.

    Bonuses are backwards looking, remember. Wages forward looking.
    Not completely, if you look forward and don't want to keep a member of staff, you can pay a zero bonus even if it has been a great year. If you do want to keep them, you can pay a bigger bonus than the year impies.
    Sure.

    Nonetheless, despite your fondness for offering bigger bonuses, there was a large scale out-of-cycle spate of base salary rises across the board in the middle of last year :)
    Pay rises and bonuses are not mutually exclusive.

    I guess this is a Brexit benefit: increased immigration.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/05/19/public-duped-long-term-visas-foreign-nationals-40pc-since-brexit/

    The number of foreign nationals granted visas to enter the UK long term has increased by 40 per cent since Brexit despite ministers’ pledges to take control of immigration, according to a new study.

    The research, by the Migration Watch think tank, found that long-term visas granted to non-UK nationals last year totalled 830,000 – up from around 600,000 before Brexit.

    Lower salary and skill thresholds for foreign workers, the widening classification of “shortage” jobs and the end of restrictions on students staying on to work after graduating have contributed to the surge.

    While the number of EU nationals who now need visas has dwindled to around 50,000 from a peak of around 280,000 in 2015-16, the number of non-EU nationals coming to the UK to work, study, resettle or live with their families has risen sharply.

    Some 210,000 – a quarter of the 830,000 granted – were work visas, up from the average of 160,000 per year for the period 2010 to 2020.
    This was one of the reasons quite a few people e.g. Filipina nurses voted for Brexit

    I guess this is a Brexit benefit: increased immigration.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/05/19/public-duped-long-term-visas-foreign-nationals-40pc-since-brexit/

    The number of foreign nationals granted visas to enter the UK long term has increased by 40 per cent since Brexit despite ministers’ pledges to take control of immigration, according to a new study.

    The research, by the Migration Watch think tank, found that long-term visas granted to non-UK nationals last year totalled 830,000 – up from around 600,000 before Brexit.

    Lower salary and skill thresholds for foreign workers, the widening classification of “shortage” jobs and the end of restrictions on students staying on to work after graduating have contributed to the surge.

    While the number of EU nationals who now need visas has dwindled to around 50,000 from a peak of around 280,000 in 2015-16, the number of non-EU nationals coming to the UK to work, study, resettle or live with their families has risen sharply.

    Some 210,000 – a quarter of the 830,000 granted – were work visas, up from the average of 160,000 per year for the period 2010 to 2020.
    This was one of the reasons quite a few people e.g. Filipina nurses voted for Brexit

    I guess this is a Brexit benefit: increased immigration.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/05/19/public-duped-long-term-visas-foreign-nationals-40pc-since-brexit/

    The number of foreign nationals granted visas to enter the UK long term has increased by 40 per cent since Brexit despite ministers’ pledges to take control of immigration, according to a new study.

    The research, by the Migration Watch think tank, found that long-term visas granted to non-UK nationals last year totalled 830,000 – up from around 600,000 before Brexit.

    Lower salary and skill thresholds for foreign workers, the widening classification of “shortage” jobs and the end of restrictions on students staying on to work after graduating have contributed to the surge.

    While the number of EU nationals who now need visas has dwindled to around 50,000 from a peak of around 280,000 in 2015-16, the number of non-EU nationals coming to the UK to work, study, resettle or live with their families has risen sharply.

    Some 210,000 – a quarter of the 830,000 granted – were work visas, up from the average of 160,000 per year for the period 2010 to 2020.
    This was one of the reasons quite a few people e.g. Filipina nurses voted for Brexit
    There must have been some industrial level stupidity involved too since non-EU immigration was nothing to do with eu membership.

  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,513



    Yes, although this all started off with a graph of actual bonuses paid and not promises to pay a bonus.

    Ya, markets were frothy last year.

    Not so, this year... eek.

    Bonuses are backwards looking, remember. Wages forward looking.
    Not completely, if you look forward and don't want to keep a member of staff, you can pay a zero bonus even if it has been a great year. If you do want to keep them, you can pay a bigger bonus than the year impies.
    Sure.

    Nonetheless, despite your fondness for offering bigger bonuses, there was a large scale out-of-cycle spate of base salary rises across the board in the middle of last year :)
    Pay rises and bonuses are not mutually exclusive.

    I guess this is a Brexit benefit: increased immigration.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/05/19/public-duped-long-term-visas-foreign-nationals-40pc-since-brexit/

    The number of foreign nationals granted visas to enter the UK long term has increased by 40 per cent since Brexit despite ministers’ pledges to take control of immigration, according to a new study.

    The research, by the Migration Watch think tank, found that long-term visas granted to non-UK nationals last year totalled 830,000 – up from around 600,000 before Brexit.

    Lower salary and skill thresholds for foreign workers, the widening classification of “shortage” jobs and the end of restrictions on students staying on to work after graduating have contributed to the surge.

    While the number of EU nationals who now need visas has dwindled to around 50,000 from a peak of around 280,000 in 2015-16, the number of non-EU nationals coming to the UK to work, study, resettle or live with their families has risen sharply.

    Some 210,000 – a quarter of the 830,000 granted – were work visas, up from the average of 160,000 per year for the period 2010 to 2020.
    This was one of the reasons quite a few people e.g. Filipina nurses voted for Brexit

    I guess this is a Brexit benefit: increased immigration.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/05/19/public-duped-long-term-visas-foreign-nationals-40pc-since-brexit/

    The number of foreign nationals granted visas to enter the UK long term has increased by 40 per cent since Brexit despite ministers’ pledges to take control of immigration, according to a new study.

    The research, by the Migration Watch think tank, found that long-term visas granted to non-UK nationals last year totalled 830,000 – up from around 600,000 before Brexit.

    Lower salary and skill thresholds for foreign workers, the widening classification of “shortage” jobs and the end of restrictions on students staying on to work after graduating have contributed to the surge.

    While the number of EU nationals who now need visas has dwindled to around 50,000 from a peak of around 280,000 in 2015-16, the number of non-EU nationals coming to the UK to work, study, resettle or live with their families has risen sharply.

    Some 210,000 – a quarter of the 830,000 granted – were work visas, up from the average of 160,000 per year for the period 2010 to 2020.
    This was one of the reasons quite a few people e.g. Filipina nurses voted for Brexit

    I guess this is a Brexit benefit: increased immigration.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/05/19/public-duped-long-term-visas-foreign-nationals-40pc-since-brexit/

    The number of foreign nationals granted visas to enter the UK long term has increased by 40 per cent since Brexit despite ministers’ pledges to take control of immigration, according to a new study.

    The research, by the Migration Watch think tank, found that long-term visas granted to non-UK nationals last year totalled 830,000 – up from around 600,000 before Brexit.

    Lower salary and skill thresholds for foreign workers, the widening classification of “shortage” jobs and the end of restrictions on students staying on to work after graduating have contributed to the surge.

    While the number of EU nationals who now need visas has dwindled to around 50,000 from a peak of around 280,000 in 2015-16, the number of non-EU nationals coming to the UK to work, study, resettle or live with their families has risen sharply.

    Some 210,000 – a quarter of the 830,000 granted – were work visas, up from the average of 160,000 per year for the period 2010 to 2020.
    This was one of the reasons quite a few people e.g. Filipina nurses voted for Brexit
    There must have been some industrial level stupidity involved too since non-EU immigration was nothing to do with eu membership.

    Except it has increased post Brexit, so they were right. Doesn't that prove it was not a stupid view?

  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,866
    ddraver said:

    morstar said:

    john80 said:

    I have to laugh at the old racist trope. For those making these claims what percentage of the population do they think are actually racist. I mean proper racist where they want to treat another race as inferior. Not just old people falling foul of the miss use of language.

    I explicitly used IF as a qualifier.

    I don't

    10% of any country - fervant racists, zenophobes, nationalists - Ultras, Nazis, BNP, Blackshirts, Skinheads, MAGA, Charlotsville protesters, KKK, Gert Wilders/VVD- call them what you will...

    20% on top of that - people who range from quietly supportive to happy to look the other way but pretend they don't - UKIP - Tories, Repuclicans, Fox News, Picanninies/Watermelon Smiles/letter boxes etc
    I admire your optimism but I would put the figure well over 52%


  • Yes, although this all started off with a graph of actual bonuses paid and not promises to pay a bonus.

    Ya, markets were frothy last year.

    Not so, this year... eek.

    Bonuses are backwards looking, remember. Wages forward looking.
    Not completely, if you look forward and don't want to keep a member of staff, you can pay a zero bonus even if it has been a great year. If you do want to keep them, you can pay a bigger bonus than the year impies.
    Sure.

    Nonetheless, despite your fondness for offering bigger bonuses, there was a large scale out-of-cycle spate of base salary rises across the board in the middle of last year :)
    Pay rises and bonuses are not mutually exclusive.

    I guess this is a Brexit benefit: increased immigration.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/05/19/public-duped-long-term-visas-foreign-nationals-40pc-since-brexit/

    The number of foreign nationals granted visas to enter the UK long term has increased by 40 per cent since Brexit despite ministers’ pledges to take control of immigration, according to a new study.

    The research, by the Migration Watch think tank, found that long-term visas granted to non-UK nationals last year totalled 830,000 – up from around 600,000 before Brexit.

    Lower salary and skill thresholds for foreign workers, the widening classification of “shortage” jobs and the end of restrictions on students staying on to work after graduating have contributed to the surge.

    While the number of EU nationals who now need visas has dwindled to around 50,000 from a peak of around 280,000 in 2015-16, the number of non-EU nationals coming to the UK to work, study, resettle or live with their families has risen sharply.

    Some 210,000 – a quarter of the 830,000 granted – were work visas, up from the average of 160,000 per year for the period 2010 to 2020.
    This was one of the reasons quite a few people e.g. Filipina nurses voted for Brexit

    I guess this is a Brexit benefit: increased immigration.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/05/19/public-duped-long-term-visas-foreign-nationals-40pc-since-brexit/

    The number of foreign nationals granted visas to enter the UK long term has increased by 40 per cent since Brexit despite ministers’ pledges to take control of immigration, according to a new study.

    The research, by the Migration Watch think tank, found that long-term visas granted to non-UK nationals last year totalled 830,000 – up from around 600,000 before Brexit.

    Lower salary and skill thresholds for foreign workers, the widening classification of “shortage” jobs and the end of restrictions on students staying on to work after graduating have contributed to the surge.

    While the number of EU nationals who now need visas has dwindled to around 50,000 from a peak of around 280,000 in 2015-16, the number of non-EU nationals coming to the UK to work, study, resettle or live with their families has risen sharply.

    Some 210,000 – a quarter of the 830,000 granted – were work visas, up from the average of 160,000 per year for the period 2010 to 2020.
    This was one of the reasons quite a few people e.g. Filipina nurses voted for Brexit

    I guess this is a Brexit benefit: increased immigration.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/05/19/public-duped-long-term-visas-foreign-nationals-40pc-since-brexit/

    The number of foreign nationals granted visas to enter the UK long term has increased by 40 per cent since Brexit despite ministers’ pledges to take control of immigration, according to a new study.

    The research, by the Migration Watch think tank, found that long-term visas granted to non-UK nationals last year totalled 830,000 – up from around 600,000 before Brexit.

    Lower salary and skill thresholds for foreign workers, the widening classification of “shortage” jobs and the end of restrictions on students staying on to work after graduating have contributed to the surge.

    While the number of EU nationals who now need visas has dwindled to around 50,000 from a peak of around 280,000 in 2015-16, the number of non-EU nationals coming to the UK to work, study, resettle or live with their families has risen sharply.

    Some 210,000 – a quarter of the 830,000 granted – were work visas, up from the average of 160,000 per year for the period 2010 to 2020.
    This was one of the reasons quite a few people e.g. Filipina nurses voted for Brexit
    There must have been some industrial level stupidity involved too since non-EU immigration was nothing to do with eu membership.

    Except it has increased post Brexit, so they were right. Doesn't that prove it was not a stupid view?

    My mistake. I’ve just realised the point you’re making. Not the one I thought it was initially.🤦‍♂️

  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,167
    ddraver said:

    morstar said:

    john80 said:

    I have to laugh at the old racist trope. For those making these claims what percentage of the population do they think are actually racist. I mean proper racist where they want to treat another race as inferior. Not just old people falling foul of the miss use of language.

    I explicitly used IF as a qualifier.

    I don't

    10% of any country - fervant racists, zenophobes, nationalists - Ultras, Nazis, BNP, Blackshirts, Skinheads, MAGA, Charlotsville protesters, KKK, Gert Wilders/VVD- call them what you will...

    20% on top of that - people who range from quietly supportive to happy to look the other way but pretend they don't - UKIP - Tories, Repuclicans, Fox News, Picanninies/Watermelon Smiles/letter boxes etc
    Apparently a lot of them are given away by their bad spelling.

    I still chuckle at the leftiebollox assumption that anyone who doesn't tow the centre leftie line or votes tory etc must be racist in some shape or form.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,348

    ddraver said:

    morstar said:

    john80 said:

    I have to laugh at the old racist trope. For those making these claims what percentage of the population do they think are actually racist. I mean proper racist where they want to treat another race as inferior. Not just old people falling foul of the miss use of language.

    I explicitly used IF as a qualifier.

    I don't

    10% of any country - fervant racists, zenophobes, nationalists - Ultras, Nazis, BNP, Blackshirts, Skinheads, MAGA, Charlotsville protesters, KKK, Gert Wilders/VVD- call them what you will...

    20% on top of that - people who range from quietly supportive to happy to look the other way but pretend they don't - UKIP - Tories, Repuclicans, Fox News, Picanninies/Watermelon Smiles/letter boxes etc
    I admire your optimism but I would put the figure well over 52%
    I was being kind with the numbers...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,348
    So am I republican or leftie now?

    So hard to keep up given that it has nothing to do with any of my actual views...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,167
    ddraver said:

    So am I republican or leftie now?

    So hard to keep up given that it has nothing to do with any of my actual views...

    Views or assumptions? No idea where you got those figures from, so feel free to back them up.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,348
    and as ever...


    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    ddraver said:

    morstar said:

    john80 said:

    I have to laugh at the old racist trope. For those making these claims what percentage of the population do they think are actually racist. I mean proper racist where they want to treat another race as inferior. Not just old people falling foul of the miss use of language.

    I explicitly used IF as a qualifier.

    I don't

    10% of any country - fervant racists, zenophobes, nationalists - Ultras, Nazis, BNP, Blackshirts, Skinheads, MAGA, Charlotsville protesters, KKK, Gert Wilders/VVD- call them what you will...

    20% on top of that - people who range from quietly supportive to happy to look the other way but pretend they don't - UKIP - Tories, Repuclicans, Fox News, Picanninies/Watermelon Smiles/letter boxes etc
    BNP must be running a bad business model as they seem to be missing a lot of subs from the 6 million people in the UK you claim are fervent rascists. Maybe we should discuss how the BNP are so bad at business.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,487
    john80 said:

    I have to laugh at the old racist trope. For those making these claims what percentage of the population do they think are actually racist. I mean proper racist where they want to treat another race as inferior. Not just old people falling foul of the miss use of language.

    I seem to remember when asked, between a quarter and a third consider themselves racist.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-people-admit-racially-prejudiced-white-black-asian-muslims-brexit-more-leave-voters-remain-survey-a7973751.html
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    rjsterry said:

    john80 said:

    I have to laugh at the old racist trope. For those making these claims what percentage of the population do they think are actually racist. I mean proper racist where they want to treat another race as inferior. Not just old people falling foul of the miss use of language.

    I seem to remember when asked, between a quarter and a third consider themselves racist.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-people-admit-racially-prejudiced-white-black-asian-muslims-brexit-more-leave-voters-remain-survey-a7973751.html
    How many of the 44% do you think would go out their way to be racist to others. If we are saying that not marrying someone who is a Muslim is a racism then you should be worried about all the BAME people that share the same view of white people.