BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
-
rjsterry said:
It wouldn't look like either. Letting some farmland run fallow is not going to reverse 6,000 years of farming. Many of the species that existed then are extinct and new species have evolved to capitalise on a farmed landscape. We have also introduced hundreds of alien species (bet there's a few rhododendrons escaped onto the common). If you stop managing farmland you'll just get unmanaged farmland not virgin forest.surrey_commuter said:
Do you really not get what i mean? I can't be bothered to write a 2,000 word essay but do you think if you went back 10,000 years the UK would look more like Epsom Common or a Devon farm?rjsterry said:
Oh FFS. Common land is not natural. It's low grade grazing land for livestock for the use of people who didn't own their own grazing land. Granted little of it is now used as such, but it was put to agricultural use.surrey_commuter said:
a very valid point - Epsom Common has never been agricultural so is as nature intendedrjsterry said:
Says the guy with two decorative wood burners who thinks Epsom is the sticks. I mean who really needs food anyway?surrey_commuter said:
Brian places a high value on the work farmers do to preserve the countryside as it currently is.rick_chasey said:
Why is that better?surrey_commuter said:
I also don't get why you don't want the countryside to return to how it was before man started clearing and managing it.
Me - if nobody wants to farm it then let it run wild
BTW - I said borderline sticks
I have quite a lot of exposure to farms and farmers
If you've not read it, and are interested, the last chapter of Ian Mercer's book on Dartmoor is a really good discussion of what would happen to Dartmoor were the extensive current management to disappear because no one could afford to graze it. The whole 'wilderness' thing is a chimera: Dartmoor takes a lot of work to keep it as it evolved to become by the early 20th century. All the National Parks are totally reliant on subsidies to maintain them as public spaces.0 -
Indeed. Literally every nature reserve has a team of people managing it. The London Commons like Wimbledon, Putney Heath and Mitcham Common only became effectively leisure spaces in the late 19th century and have Acts of Parliament covering their management by wardens. They cost a lot of money to keep that way.briantrumpet said:rjsterry said:
It wouldn't look like either. Letting some farmland run fallow is not going to reverse 6,000 years of farming. Many of the species that existed then are extinct and new species have evolved to capitalise on a farmed landscape. We have also introduced hundreds of alien species (bet there's a few rhododendrons escaped onto the common). If you stop managing farmland you'll just get unmanaged farmland not virgin forest.surrey_commuter said:
Do you really not get what i mean? I can't be bothered to write a 2,000 word essay but do you think if you went back 10,000 years the UK would look more like Epsom Common or a Devon farm?rjsterry said:
Oh FFS. Common land is not natural. It's low grade grazing land for livestock for the use of people who didn't own their own grazing land. Granted little of it is now used as such, but it was put to agricultural use.surrey_commuter said:
a very valid point - Epsom Common has never been agricultural so is as nature intendedrjsterry said:
Says the guy with two decorative wood burners who thinks Epsom is the sticks. I mean who really needs food anyway?surrey_commuter said:
Brian places a high value on the work farmers do to preserve the countryside as it currently is.rick_chasey said:
Why is that better?surrey_commuter said:
I also don't get why you don't want the countryside to return to how it was before man started clearing and managing it.
Me - if nobody wants to farm it then let it run wild
BTW - I said borderline sticks
I have quite a lot of exposure to farms and farmers
If you've not read it, and are interested, the last chapter of Ian Mercer's book on Dartmoor is a really good discussion of what would happen to Dartmoor were the extensive current management to disappear because no one could afford to graze it. The whole 'wilderness' thing is a chimera: Dartmoor takes a lot of work to keep it as it evolved to become by the early 20th century. All the National Parks are totally reliant on subsidies to maintain them as public spaces.
BTW, I've just checked and there is a scheme to reintroduce grazing cattle to the Common to help manage the nature reserve.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
No body ever sees the need for being self sufficient until the free market can't deliver them what they want at a consistent price. Imagine a world where we were fracking our own gas and developed the North sea more. We had 40% of our power coming from nuclear and all the renewables we currently have. Would people be making the choice of heating or eating and would the current Ukraine situation be such a impact to the UK.surrey_commuter said:
I just don't see a need for being self-sufficient.briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:
Do you really see farmers as being on a par with edu, transport and health?briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:So if all farmers are brassic and there is no money to be made why has the price of agricultural land outstripped house prices?
Maybe, just maybe the presence of massive subsidies has resulted in inefficient producers.
And yes I know farmers and the grants and subsidies they get would make your eyes bleed. They do such bizarre things that I have to sit down with pencil and paper and have a serious think about why they do it.
The way subsidies are divvied up is nuts, but that's the hang-over from a CAP that got hijacked by the big producers to benefit themselves: it would be like supermarkets getting the lion's share of support that had been intended to help small community businesses.
We subsidise education, transport and health to an eye-watering level (and thereby all the industries that serve them). They aren't left to the free market for very good reason.
To me farming is more akin to the arts.
Seriously? Even as a musician, I'd suggest that's a weird comparison.
The Russia thing has brought things into sharper focus: food, energy. If they can grab a large part of the world's supplies of both, they've got a lot of, er, power, and can destabilise economies.
Which would you rather survive without (or experience a shortage of), food, or the arts?
The comparison with the arts is a based upon the ruling classes looking after their own and things that they like doing
0 -
The search for reliable food & energy sources has been a constant of human existence since the dawn of time. Not much has changed really, other than (some) people have got complacent about it.1
-
Unless we removed ourselves from the global market and forced UK producers to only sell to the UK market it would not effect the price of oil and gas.john80 said:
No body ever sees the need for being self sufficient until the free market can't deliver them what they want at a consistent price. Imagine a world where we were fracking our own gas and developed the North sea more. We had 40% of our power coming from nuclear and all the renewables we currently have. Would people be making the choice of heating or eating and would the current Ukraine situation be such a impact to the UK.surrey_commuter said:
I just don't see a need for being self-sufficient.briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:
Do you really see farmers as being on a par with edu, transport and health?briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:So if all farmers are brassic and there is no money to be made why has the price of agricultural land outstripped house prices?
Maybe, just maybe the presence of massive subsidies has resulted in inefficient producers.
And yes I know farmers and the grants and subsidies they get would make your eyes bleed. They do such bizarre things that I have to sit down with pencil and paper and have a serious think about why they do it.
The way subsidies are divvied up is nuts, but that's the hang-over from a CAP that got hijacked by the big producers to benefit themselves: it would be like supermarkets getting the lion's share of support that had been intended to help small community businesses.
We subsidise education, transport and health to an eye-watering level (and thereby all the industries that serve them). They aren't left to the free market for very good reason.
To me farming is more akin to the arts.
Seriously? Even as a musician, I'd suggest that's a weird comparison.
The Russia thing has brought things into sharper focus: food, energy. If they can grab a large part of the world's supplies of both, they've got a lot of, er, power, and can destabilise economies.
Which would you rather survive without (or experience a shortage of), food, or the arts?
The comparison with the arts is a based upon the ruling classes looking after their own and things that they like doing0 -
You need to think of the overall picture. More nuclear would mean less gas stations and that gas could be used for homes instead. For sure why should a state in times of crisis for its poor population not control exports and set the price at a more normal level. The only flip side is we would have to support producers when it was low as the oil and gas business model is to capitalise when times are good to get through lean times.surrey_commuter said:
Unless we removed ourselves from the global market and forced UK producers to only sell to the UK market it would not effect the price of oil and gas.john80 said:
No body ever sees the need for being self sufficient until the free market can't deliver them what they want at a consistent price. Imagine a world where we were fracking our own gas and developed the North sea more. We had 40% of our power coming from nuclear and all the renewables we currently have. Would people be making the choice of heating or eating and would the current Ukraine situation be such a impact to the UK.surrey_commuter said:
I just don't see a need for being self-sufficient.briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:
Do you really see farmers as being on a par with edu, transport and health?briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:So if all farmers are brassic and there is no money to be made why has the price of agricultural land outstripped house prices?
Maybe, just maybe the presence of massive subsidies has resulted in inefficient producers.
And yes I know farmers and the grants and subsidies they get would make your eyes bleed. They do such bizarre things that I have to sit down with pencil and paper and have a serious think about why they do it.
The way subsidies are divvied up is nuts, but that's the hang-over from a CAP that got hijacked by the big producers to benefit themselves: it would be like supermarkets getting the lion's share of support that had been intended to help small community businesses.
We subsidise education, transport and health to an eye-watering level (and thereby all the industries that serve them). They aren't left to the free market for very good reason.
To me farming is more akin to the arts.
Seriously? Even as a musician, I'd suggest that's a weird comparison.
The Russia thing has brought things into sharper focus: food, energy. If they can grab a large part of the world's supplies of both, they've got a lot of, er, power, and can destabilise economies.
Which would you rather survive without (or experience a shortage of), food, or the arts?
The comparison with the arts is a based upon the ruling classes looking after their own and things that they like doing
People are only starting to wake up to the reality that if you are running a country you need to control some things and fund some long term projects to insulate you from risks. The reality is the decisions made in the last twenty years are coming home to roost. We are a nation of fruit loops where all balance is lost. We have idiots campaigning against nuclear but are not happy to have an intermittent electricity supply which would be the natural outcome of a fossil fuel free grid. We have idiots happy to buy products with imported steel in them but are out demonstrating against a coking coal mine in Cumbria that could allow us to make our own. It really is slow hand clap stuff.0 -
How's the old Brexit working out for ye over there.
Over here?
Well this is the leaders of 2 of the 3 Unionist parties removing a poster of the 3rd leader, to which someone has attached a noose, prior to speaking at an anti-protocol/election rally
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
-
This sums up my understanding of NI politics - I have no comprehension of what you have just writtentailwindhome said:How's the old Brexit working out for ye over there.
Over here?
Well this is the leaders of 2 of the 3 Unionist parties removing a poster of the 3rd leader, to which someone has attached a noose, prior to speaking at an anti-protocol/election rally0 -
surrey_commuter said:
This sums up my understanding of NI politics - I have no comprehension of what you have just writtentailwindhome said:How's the old Brexit working out for ye over there.
Over here?
Well this is the leaders of 2 of the 3 Unionist parties removing a poster of the 3rd leader, to which someone has attached a noose, prior to speaking at an anti-protocol/election rally
I think you should be in the cabinet, with those advanced skills.0 -
I can’t decide if they see it as a problem or have called dibs on it to hang in their own offices.surrey_commuter said:
This sums up my understanding of NI politics - I have no comprehension of what you have just writtentailwindhome said:How's the old Brexit working out for ye over there.
Over here?
Well this is the leaders of 2 of the 3 Unionist parties removing a poster of the 3rd leader, to which someone has attached a noose, prior to speaking at an anti-protocol/election rally0 -
Another blow to the EU plan to confiscate City clearing business:
https://telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/04/09/brussels-plot-raid-city-clearing-dealt-major-blow/?li_source=LI&li_medium=li-recommendation-widget
Quotes:
The European Banking Federation (EBF) said the Commission’s plan to punish banks for failing to shift lucrative clearing business out of the City of London would cause “serious market disruption” and “significantly weaken the attractiveness and competitiveness” of EU clearing houses.
The EBF, which is led by Santander chief Ana Botin, warned that international clients “will move their entire capital markets business (not only the clearing business) to non-EU institutions” if the Commission pushed ahead with its "forced relocation" plans.
It added: “EBF would like to highlight that any forced relocation strategy or other coercive measures will not achieve, and would likely undermine, the objective of a competitive and resilient EU clearing [market].”
In its submission, the federation said an indiscriminate relocation of clearing activity would be “ineffective and counterproductive”, adding that it would “disincentivise non-EU market participants to move a significant share of their market activity into the EU”.
The EBF’s submission concluded: “We ask the European Commission to only consider measures that make clearing in the EU more attractive, without disproportionally undermining other market participants that are key to the fair and efficient provision of clearing services.”"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Just saw on the news that zelensky has called Russia's invasion an attack on the whole European project - I hope he didn't tell Boris that while he was there.0
-
Exactly! they seem to be taking care so maybe they want to preserve and frame it.morstar said:
I can’t decide if they see it as a problem or have called dibs on it to hang in their own offices.surrey_commuter said:
This sums up my understanding of NI politics - I have no comprehension of what you have just writtentailwindhome said:How's the old Brexit working out for ye over there.
Over here?
Well this is the leaders of 2 of the 3 Unionist parties removing a poster of the 3rd leader, to which someone has attached a noose, prior to speaking at an anti-protocol/election rally
Or they are taking care as they want to preserve it to hand to the police as evidence.0 -
Your reminder that Les présidents francais do NOT get reelected...
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
ddraver said:
Your reminder that Les présidents francais do NOT get reelected...
It would be more than a little of a worry if she won, but if Macron can avoid a major mis-step, I suspect that the closeness will be enough to worry the non-xenophobes into backing Macron.0 -
Not just the UK with Hobson's choice then.0
-
FFS, France! Why on earth are you even considering a Putin apologist?ddraver said:Your reminder that Les présidents francais do NOT get reelected...
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
rjsterry said:
FFS, France! Why on earth are you even considering a Putin apologist?ddraver said:Your reminder that Les présidents francais do NOT get reelected...
Because like all countries they have a sizeable proportion of people who don't like furriners. It should be a stick Macron can beat her with... at least if it doesn't dissuade the xenophobes, it might be enough to discourage those who might think it's just 'time for a change' (see Brexit).0 -
Macron was just setting out the terms of the french surrender.Pross said:1 -
-
It doesn't say much for Macron that people need to vote for Le Pen as some sort of protest vote. I assume that is partly what is driving her popularity in the polls.rjsterry said:
FFS, France! Why on earth are you even considering a Putin apologist?ddraver said:Your reminder that Les présidents francais do NOT get reelected...
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Pross said:
This isn't exactly fair. Macron was the one person Putin would speak to and with a tiny amount of thought it's clear that having Putin talking to someone is better than no one.
It's not like Macron wouldn't have shared the information immediately anyway...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Be fair, if you were a Macron supporter, you'd probably vote le pen in the first round.Stevo_666 said:
It doesn't say much for Macron that people need to vote for Le Pen as some sort of protest vote. I assume that is partly what is driving her popularity in the polls.rjsterry said:
FFS, France! Why on earth are you even considering a Putin apologist?ddraver said:Your reminder that Les présidents francais do NOT get reelected...
0 -
Voting le pen as a protest vote is like shitting the bed because you were disappointed the duvet is the wrong tog.
Stupid thing to say.0 -
Who you talking to?0
-
Oh come on it's not even remotely difficult. One option has not achieved everything he promised, the other positions herself between UKIP and the BNP and had a picture of her and Putin in her campaign literature.Pross said:Not just the UK with Hobson's choice then.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Not sure why you think that. Not sure his attempts achieved anything but I don't think he was approaching him as a friend.Pross said:1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Exactly, vote for the under-achieving liberal or let in a borderline neo-Nazi. That's pretty much the definition of Hobson's choice as I understand it i.e. portrayed as a choice when there isn't one really.rjsterry said:
Oh come on it's not even remotely difficult. One option has not achieved everything he promised, the other positions herself between UKIP and the BNP and had a picture of her and Putin in her campaign literature.Pross said:Not just the UK with Hobson's choice then.
0
