BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

skyblueamateur

This blow over in the next week. You can only fill your tank up once.

More concerning were the empty shelves in Sainsburys when I went shopping on Saturday. Most are things I could do without but was very little bread and no pasta.

kingstongraham

skyblueamateur said:

This blow over in the next week. You can only fill your tank up once.

More concerning were the empty shelves in Sainsburys when I went shopping on Saturday. Most are things I could do without but was very little bread and no pasta.

Have you tried Waitrose?

Pross

The one bloke on TV this morning was talking about how people should buy their usual £20 or 20 litres. I'm intrigued how many people buy their fuel like that. I've always run my tank down low and then completely refilled. Sometimes, if I need to make long work trips, that has been two or three times a week whilst at the start of the first lockdown the tank lasted about 6 weeks.

skyblueamateur

kingstongraham said:

skyblueamateur said:

This blow over in the next week. You can only fill your tank up once.

More concerning were the empty shelves in Sainsburys when I went shopping on Saturday. Most are things I could do without but was very little bread and no pasta.

Have you tried Waitrose?

Too posh for us Coventrians mate, nearest one to me is Kenilworth. Would have gone but only got a 1/4 of a tank of petrol left

Brexit dilemma's.

rick_chasey

kingstongraham said:

If we've learned anything from the last 18 months, it's that you need to get your stockpiling in early, so you don't have to panic buy with all those people who believed what they were told.

I wouldn't trust anyone not on a farm who stockpiles petrol.

kingstongraham

Pross said:

The one bloke on TV this morning was talking about how people should buy their usual £20 or 20 litres. I'm intrigued how many people buy their fuel like that. I've always run my tank down low and then completely refilled. Sometimes, if I need to make long work trips, that has been two or three times a week whilst at the start of the first lockdown the tank lasted about 6 weeks.

Yes, wait until it gets down to 50 miles to go and then fill it up. Wait a month and repeat.

briantrumpet

At least I've got enough toilet paper to last me till next summer.

kingstongraham

rick_chasey said:

kingstongraham said:

If we've learned anything from the last 18 months, it's that you need to get your stockpiling in early, so you don't have to panic buy with all those people who believed what they were told.

I wouldn't trust anyone not on a farm who stockpiles petrol.

If I'd topped up my tank over the weekend, despite the car saying I had 280 miles left, and wasn't planning on going anywhere much - I'd describe that as stockpiling in these circumstances.

It's all very short term (as in a few days).

pblakeney

kingstongraham said:

Pross said:

The one bloke on TV this morning was talking about how people should buy their usual £20 or 20 litres. I'm intrigued how many people buy their fuel like that. I've always run my tank down low and then completely refilled. Sometimes, if I need to make long work trips, that has been two or three times a week whilst at the start of the first lockdown the tank lasted about 6 weeks.

Yes, wait until it gets down to 50 miles to go and then fill it up. Wait a month and repeat.

Likewise.
Currently going for over a month at a time between refills. What problem? 😉

rick_chasey

kingstongraham said:

rick_chasey said:

kingstongraham said:

If we've learned anything from the last 18 months, it's that you need to get your stockpiling in early, so you don't have to panic buy with all those people who believed what they were told.

I wouldn't trust anyone not on a farm who stockpiles petrol.

If I'd topped up my tank over the weekend, despite the car saying I had 280 miles left, and wasn't planning on going anywhere much - I'd describe that as stockpiling in these circumstances.

It's all very short term (as in a few days).

I have to say, it does make me very pleased that I am not reliant on a car. That was part of the choice/trade off for living in-town.

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

kingstongraham said:

If we've learned anything from the last 18 months, it's that you need to get your stockpiling in early, so you don't have to panic buy with all those people who believed what they were told.

I wouldn't trust anyone not on a farm who stockpiles petrol.

Farmers use red.

rick_chasey

Thanks for that insight.

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

Thanks for that insight.

They won't be buying petrol when they can buy tax free diesel. Better insight?

rick_chasey

I literally put in the exception to avoid a smart @rse comment because I know farmers regularly stockpile diesel, but look, here we are.

briantrumpet

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

Thanks for that insight.

They won't be buying petrol when they can buy tax free diesel. Better insight?

Only in tractors. It's fairly regularly policed (or used to be), and farmers using red diesel in their Land Rovers prosecuted.

briantrumpet

rick_chasey said:

kingstongraham said:

rick_chasey said:

kingstongraham said:

If we've learned anything from the last 18 months, it's that you need to get your stockpiling in early, so you don't have to panic buy with all those people who believed what they were told.

I wouldn't trust anyone not on a farm who stockpiles petrol.

If I'd topped up my tank over the weekend, despite the car saying I had 280 miles left, and wasn't planning on going anywhere much - I'd describe that as stockpiling in these circumstances.

It's all very short term (as in a few days).

I have to say, it does make me very pleased that I am not reliant on a car. That was part of the choice/trade off for living in-town.

Ditto. I actually have got into the habit of disconnecting the battery in between use, as the first lockdown killed the battery, as I didn't use the car for three months.

TheBigBean

briantrumpet said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

Thanks for that insight.

They won't be buying petrol when they can buy tax free diesel. Better insight?

Only in tractors. It's fairly regularly policed (or used to be), and farmers using red diesel in their Land Rovers prosecuted.

Not in their cars, of course, but all farm vehicles can use red provided they are not on public roads.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

surrey_commuter said:

kingstongraham said:

surrey_commuter said:

pblakeney said:

surrey_commuter said:

DeVlaeminck said:

briantrumpet said:

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

Strange thing today out on the bike. I passed loads of garages. No queues and no signs saying sold out. Muppets must feel silly. I hope so.

Drove out to Leith Hill from Kingston. Every petrol station we passed had massive queues except one that had a sign saying "no unleaded".

It was causing traffic jams at the hook junction with the a3 and at the leatherhead roundabout near Box Hill. It's crazy out there.

I bet you if you quizzed most of those drivers, each one would deny they are panic buying, but would come up with some reason why they had to queue to fill their tank to the top today.

Yes I put £75 in at 6am this morning - I needed to get somewhere by car today and saw no point in putting £30 in and possibly having to get up at 5am and try multiple petrol stations again on Tuesday or Wednesday if I could put enough in to last me at least til next weekend.

It's just a collective action problem really - individually rational actions are producing a collectively sub optimal outcome.

Your last sentence perfectly sums it up.

The tales of woe from people unable to make journeys important to to them just baffles me that that did not plan ahead on Thursday.

Conclusion. People should have panicked more on Thursday?

No need to panic on Thursday.

If I needed a rail ticket on a Monday and I bought it on Sunday to avoid the inevitable long queues would that be a panic buy?

If you normally buy it on Monday, and buying it on Sunday for some obscure reason meant that people wanting to travel later on Sunday couldn't, then yes.

I don't think you get away with it being not a panic buy just because you started the ball rolling.

But obviously, individually not irrational.

I could chose another analogy where pre-planning your life saved you inconvenience whilst those unwilling to think ahead accused you of panicking but I think we both know it would be pointless

I'd say there isn't panic buying now, just long queues and shortages.

But if you think there is panic buying, then buying early because you think there will be a shortage and long queues is basically the origin story.

The bigger issue is clearly idiots panic buying. Not helped by idiots spreading scare stories around on the Internet.

There is also a question mark about whether those with an agenda were trying to cause a problem:
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/09/26/haulage-body-anti-brexit-drive-behind-fuel-crisis-leak-claim/

Who could possibly have predicted that a government minister telling people not to panic buy would lead to panic buying? It's sooo difficult to predict these things.

As for the RHA causing it, I didn't have you down as a conspiracy theorist.

briantrumpet

TheBigBean said:

briantrumpet said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

Thanks for that insight.

They won't be buying petrol when they can buy tax free diesel. Better insight?

Only in tractors. It's fairly regularly policed (or used to be), and farmers using red diesel in their Land Rovers prosecuted.

Not in their cars, of course, but all farm vehicles can use red provided they are not on public roads.

Indeed, but in practice, they use cars and other vehicles (tractors excepted) like the rest of us. It's hardly practical to drive a tractor to do the weekly shop at Tesco. Some of them might have a separate tank for road diesel, but the advantage is minimal - really just the convenience, but with the added risk of theft of something you're prepaid a lot of tax on.

TheBigBean

briantrumpet said:

TheBigBean said:

briantrumpet said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

Thanks for that insight.

They won't be buying petrol when they can buy tax free diesel. Better insight?

Only in tractors. It's fairly regularly policed (or used to be), and farmers using red diesel in their Land Rovers prosecuted.

Not in their cars, of course, but all farm vehicles can use red provided they are not on public roads.

Indeed, but in practice, they use cars and other vehicles (tractors excepted) like the rest of us. It's hardly practical to drive a tractor to do the weekly shop at Tesco. Some of them might have a separate tank for road diesel, but the advantage is minimal - really just the convenience, but with the added risk of theft of something you're prepaid a lot of tax on.

Yes, so a trip to Tesco is the same risk as everyone else, but the farming business carries on as normal.

briantrumpet

TheBigBean said:

briantrumpet said:

TheBigBean said:

briantrumpet said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

Thanks for that insight.

They won't be buying petrol when they can buy tax free diesel. Better insight?

Only in tractors. It's fairly regularly policed (or used to be), and farmers using red diesel in their Land Rovers prosecuted.

Not in their cars, of course, but all farm vehicles can use red provided they are not on public roads.

Indeed, but in practice, they use cars and other vehicles (tractors excepted) like the rest of us. It's hardly practical to drive a tractor to do the weekly shop at Tesco. Some of them might have a separate tank for road diesel, but the advantage is minimal - really just the convenience, but with the added risk of theft of something you're prepaid a lot of tax on.

Yes, so a trip to Tesco is the same risk as everyone else, but the farming business carries on as normal.

I'm not sure what we're arguing here, or why. But yes, the tractors won't stop working the land because of a temporary petrol shortage...

TheBigBean

briantrumpet said:

TheBigBean said:

briantrumpet said:

TheBigBean said:

briantrumpet said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

Thanks for that insight.

They won't be buying petrol when they can buy tax free diesel. Better insight?

Only in tractors. It's fairly regularly policed (or used to be), and farmers using red diesel in their Land Rovers prosecuted.

Not in their cars, of course, but all farm vehicles can use red provided they are not on public roads.

Indeed, but in practice, they use cars and other vehicles (tractors excepted) like the rest of us. It's hardly practical to drive a tractor to do the weekly shop at Tesco. Some of them might have a separate tank for road diesel, but the advantage is minimal - really just the convenience, but with the added risk of theft of something you're prepaid a lot of tax on.

Yes, so a trip to Tesco is the same risk as everyone else, but the farming business carries on as normal.

I'm not sure what we're arguing here, or why. But yes, the tractors won't stop working the land because of a temporary petrol shortage...

It's Rick's amazing ability to create argument out of nothing! (I presume he will disagree with this).

kingstongraham

That Iain Duncan Smith piece is great stuff. I liked this bit:

I recall before Brexit, when as Secretary of State at the Department for Work and Pensions I questioned why hauliers did so little to invest in their industry by training drivers, particularly when the shortages were already becoming known, the hauliers responded that British people wouldn’t do the job. In response, my department bought a number of places on courses to test their theory, and found that they were filled by applicants in days, and well over three-quarters subsequently passed. The hauliers' theory was wrong: there were plenty of people with drivers licences who would have loved to train but couldn’t afford the cost of the course.

I'm assuming that having identified the problem and found a solution to it, they then abandoned this pilot scheme because it was government interference, and just let the current shitshow happen.

surrey_commuter

kingstongraham said:

rick_chasey said:

kingstongraham said:

If we've learned anything from the last 18 months, it's that you need to get your stockpiling in early, so you don't have to panic buy with all those people who believed what they were told.

I wouldn't trust anyone not on a farm who stockpiles petrol.

If I'd topped up my tank over the weekend, despite the car saying I had 280 miles left, and wasn't planning on going anywhere much - I'd describe that as stockpiling in these circumstances.

It's all very short term (as in a few days).

If people are doing that then it is probably a sign of mental health issues either around anxiety issues or wanting to be a part of something

kingstongraham

surrey_commuter said:

kingstongraham said:

rick_chasey said:

kingstongraham said:

If we've learned anything from the last 18 months, it's that you need to get your stockpiling in early, so you don't have to panic buy with all those people who believed what they were told.

I wouldn't trust anyone not on a farm who stockpiles petrol.

If I'd topped up my tank over the weekend, despite the car saying I had 280 miles left, and wasn't planning on going anywhere much - I'd describe that as stockpiling in these circumstances.

It's all very short term (as in a few days).

If people are doing that then it is probably a sign of mental health issues either around anxiety issues or wanting to be a part of something

Or possibly they have a memory of the last time something like this happened.

surrey_commuter

TheBigBean said:

briantrumpet said:

TheBigBean said:

briantrumpet said:

TheBigBean said:

briantrumpet said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

Thanks for that insight.

They won't be buying petrol when they can buy tax free diesel. Better insight?

Only in tractors. It's fairly regularly policed (or used to be), and farmers using red diesel in their Land Rovers prosecuted.

Not in their cars, of course, but all farm vehicles can use red provided they are not on public roads.

Indeed, but in practice, they use cars and other vehicles (tractors excepted) like the rest of us. It's hardly practical to drive a tractor to do the weekly shop at Tesco. Some of them might have a separate tank for road diesel, but the advantage is minimal - really just the convenience, but with the added risk of theft of something you're prepaid a lot of tax on.

Yes, so a trip to Tesco is the same risk as everyone else, but the farming business carries on as normal.

I'm not sure what we're arguing here, or why. But yes, the tractors won't stop working the land because of a temporary petrol shortage...

It's Rick's amazing ability to create argument out of nothing! (I presume he will disagree with this).

His poor sentence construction leaves an element of doubt about his meaning

I wouldn't trust anyone not on a farm who stockpiles petrol.

but surely he is saying that he does not think that the public have the correct facilities to safely store petrol.

Then in true CS fashion posters queued up to dream up exceptional circumstances where this was not true.

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

https://twitter.com/ChrisGiles_/status/1441661799712047104?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1441661799712047104%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=file%3A%2F%2F%2Fprivate%2Fvar%2Fcontainers%2FBundle%2FApplication%2FA02D5B8F-83F9-43D9-ADBB-09F8FDCC0586%2FGLA.app%2FArticleTemplates%2F

lol - at least I now know why I am alone in thinking it to be rational behaviour

surrey_commuter

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

surrey_commuter said:

kingstongraham said:

surrey_commuter said:

pblakeney said:

surrey_commuter said:

DeVlaeminck said:

briantrumpet said:

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

Strange thing today out on the bike. I passed loads of garages. No queues and no signs saying sold out. Muppets must feel silly. I hope so.

Drove out to Leith Hill from Kingston. Every petrol station we passed had massive queues except one that had a sign saying "no unleaded".

It was causing traffic jams at the hook junction with the a3 and at the leatherhead roundabout near Box Hill. It's crazy out there.

I bet you if you quizzed most of those drivers, each one would deny they are panic buying, but would come up with some reason why they had to queue to fill their tank to the top today.

Yes I put £75 in at 6am this morning - I needed to get somewhere by car today and saw no point in putting £30 in and possibly having to get up at 5am and try multiple petrol stations again on Tuesday or Wednesday if I could put enough in to last me at least til next weekend.

It's just a collective action problem really - individually rational actions are producing a collectively sub optimal outcome.

Your last sentence perfectly sums it up.

The tales of woe from people unable to make journeys important to to them just baffles me that that did not plan ahead on Thursday.

Conclusion. People should have panicked more on Thursday?

No need to panic on Thursday.

If I needed a rail ticket on a Monday and I bought it on Sunday to avoid the inevitable long queues would that be a panic buy?

If you normally buy it on Monday, and buying it on Sunday for some obscure reason meant that people wanting to travel later on Sunday couldn't, then yes.

I don't think you get away with it being not a panic buy just because you started the ball rolling.

But obviously, individually not irrational.

I could chose another analogy where pre-planning your life saved you inconvenience whilst those unwilling to think ahead accused you of panicking but I think we both know it would be pointless

I'd say there isn't panic buying now, just long queues and shortages.

But if you think there is panic buying, then buying early because you think there will be a shortage and long queues is basically the origin story.

The bigger issue is clearly idiots panic buying. Not helped by idiots spreading scare stories around on the Internet.

There is also a question mark about whether those with an agenda were trying to cause a problem:
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/09/26/haulage-body-anti-brexit-drive-behind-fuel-crisis-leak-claim/

I think we laughed at that yesterday

TheBigBean

surrey_commuter said:

TheBigBean said:

briantrumpet said:

TheBigBean said:

briantrumpet said:

TheBigBean said:

briantrumpet said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

Thanks for that insight.

They won't be buying petrol when they can buy tax free diesel. Better insight?

Only in tractors. It's fairly regularly policed (or used to be), and farmers using red diesel in their Land Rovers prosecuted.

Not in their cars, of course, but all farm vehicles can use red provided they are not on public roads.

Indeed, but in practice, they use cars and other vehicles (tractors excepted) like the rest of us. It's hardly practical to drive a tractor to do the weekly shop at Tesco. Some of them might have a separate tank for road diesel, but the advantage is minimal - really just the convenience, but with the added risk of theft of something you're prepaid a lot of tax on.

Yes, so a trip to Tesco is the same risk as everyone else, but the farming business carries on as normal.

I'm not sure what we're arguing here, or why. But yes, the tractors won't stop working the land because of a temporary petrol shortage...

It's Rick's amazing ability to create argument out of nothing! (I presume he will disagree with this).

His poor sentence construction leaves an element of doubt about his meaning

I wouldn't trust anyone not on a farm who stockpiles petrol.

but surely he is saying that he does not think that the public have the correct facilities to safely store petrol.

Then in true CS fashion posters queued up to dream up exceptional circumstances where this was not true.

Yes, Rick's basic point is fine. It's just that the exception (farmers) also don't stockpile petrol, because they stockpile red diesel. I wouldn't have commented, but it follows on from discussion on rural things the other day.

I do accept that I am, on this occasion, guilty of the pointless cake stop bickering that I dislike.

ddraver

briantrumpet said:

It's hardly practical to drive a tractor to do the weekly shop at Tesco.

A Tractor for Tesco is what the LR Discovery was/Ineos Grenadier is for no?