BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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OK what part of what you're suggesting *isn't* the same as North Korean autarky policy where everything in North Korea must be made in North Korea?john80 said:
I think you should take a step back and consider your choices. You want a fridge from around the world. That is fraught with procurement risk which you are now suffering. Increased container costs and lead time are not Brexit related. Having a coherent industrial strategy is not akin to becoming North Korea bit yeah you keep banging the drum.rick_chasey said:
https://www.aei.org/economics/the-economic-self-harm-of-autarky-are-we-really-talking-about-america-making-everything-it-needs-in-america/john80 said:So we have an economy based around just in time delivery from other countries and no domestic resilience in the manufacturing sector. Maybe we should be looking at the UK manufacturing sector rather than thinking the solution is less Brexit maybe it is for us to become more independent. Rick's fridge does not need to be made in China and this is the point a large amount of you miss.
You are following the logic of various North Korean dictators. How rich are North Koreans right now?
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If you kept fucking up in your job, then relied every time on "it's all academic now because what's done is done" when confronted with the problems you'd caused, I don't think you'd be appreciated by your bosses.
"We are where we are." as the worst project managers often say.0 -
I actually googled, out of interest, and LEC make fridges in the UK!pblakeney said:
There are reasons things are the way they are. Bring back British manufacturing? I'd say that's optimistic, at a level that maybe I could win the 2022 Tour. 🤣john80 said:So we have an economy based around just in time delivery from other countries and no domestic resilience in the manufacturing sector. Maybe we should be looking at the UK manufacturing sector rather than thinking the solution is less Brexit maybe it is for us to become more independent. Rick's fridge does not need to be made in China and this is the point a large amount of you miss.
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Well no. Rick ordered a fridge that he was told was in stock. He was not told that they didn't actually have any and were waiting for deliveries from China.john80 said:
I think you should take a step back and consider your choices. You want a fridge from around the world. That is fraught with procurement risk which you are now suffering. Increased container costs and lead time are not Brexit related. Having a coherent industrial strategy is not akin to becoming North Korea bit yeah you keep banging the drum.rick_chasey said:
https://www.aei.org/economics/the-economic-self-harm-of-autarky-are-we-really-talking-about-america-making-everything-it-needs-in-america/john80 said:So we have an economy based around just in time delivery from other countries and no domestic resilience in the manufacturing sector. Maybe we should be looking at the UK manufacturing sector rather than thinking the solution is less Brexit maybe it is for us to become more independent. Rick's fridge does not need to be made in China and this is the point a large amount of you miss.
You are following the logic of various North Korean dictators. How rich are North Koreans right now?0 -
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So it is SMEG.rick_chasey said:Who said anything about China? The fridge I bought is manufactured in Italy according specs.
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There is a sliding scale between a policy that everything has to be made abroad and everything has to be made in the UK. There is a middle ground that can be supported by an industrial strategy but yeah you keep calling that North Korea.rick_chasey said:
OK what part of what you're suggesting *isn't* the same as North Korean autarky policy where everything in North Korea must be made in North Korea?john80 said:
I think you should take a step back and consider your choices. You want a fridge from around the world. That is fraught with procurement risk which you are now suffering. Increased container costs and lead time are not Brexit related. Having a coherent industrial strategy is not akin to becoming North Korea bit yeah you keep banging the drum.rick_chasey said:
https://www.aei.org/economics/the-economic-self-harm-of-autarky-are-we-really-talking-about-america-making-everything-it-needs-in-america/john80 said:So we have an economy based around just in time delivery from other countries and no domestic resilience in the manufacturing sector. Maybe we should be looking at the UK manufacturing sector rather than thinking the solution is less Brexit maybe it is for us to become more independent. Rick's fridge does not need to be made in China and this is the point a large amount of you miss.
You are following the logic of various North Korean dictators. How rich are North Koreans right now?0 -
There is absolutely no middle ground with you on this.rick_chasey said:
OK what part of what you're suggesting *isn't* the same as North Korean autarky policy where everything in North Korea must be made in North Korea?john80 said:
I think you should take a step back and consider your choices. You want a fridge from around the world. That is fraught with procurement risk which you are now suffering. Increased container costs and lead time are not Brexit related. Having a coherent industrial strategy is not akin to becoming North Korea bit yeah you keep banging the drum.rick_chasey said:
https://www.aei.org/economics/the-economic-self-harm-of-autarky-are-we-really-talking-about-america-making-everything-it-needs-in-america/john80 said:So we have an economy based around just in time delivery from other countries and no domestic resilience in the manufacturing sector. Maybe we should be looking at the UK manufacturing sector rather than thinking the solution is less Brexit maybe it is for us to become more independent. Rick's fridge does not need to be made in China and this is the point a large amount of you miss.
You are following the logic of various North Korean dictators. How rich are North Koreans right now?
Anybody mentions any kind of support for domestic manufacturing capability and you compare it to NK.
It’s as daft as Stevos blue tinted specs.
There isn’t only one economic model at play.
We should be open to the idea we could make more stuff, not least because it will create jobs for people who don’t/ can’t / shouldn’t work in service but can contribute to the economy.
The China manufacturing cost numbers aren’t exclusively in their favour and are moving against them with exorbitant shipping rates. Do you really want China to have a total monopoly on all global production? I don’t. They’re already far too close for my liking.
A lot of production has gone there as it’s easy for PE to leverage capital out of a business. Not because it has actually improved the business.2 -
We already have quite a vibrant high value manufacturing sector. Of course it could be bigger, but that's not a change that is going to happen over night. Besides, I'd much rather be living in the country that designed and built single crystal gt blades, than one that designed naff all but knocked out a ton of fridges.0
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Yeah when it comes to international trade, I think pretty much all the evidence is in favour of trading as freely as possible, quite frankly.morstar said:
There is absolutely no middle ground with you on this.rick_chasey said:
OK what part of what you're suggesting *isn't* the same as North Korean autarky policy where everything in North Korea must be made in North Korea?john80 said:
I think you should take a step back and consider your choices. You want a fridge from around the world. That is fraught with procurement risk which you are now suffering. Increased container costs and lead time are not Brexit related. Having a coherent industrial strategy is not akin to becoming North Korea bit yeah you keep banging the drum.rick_chasey said:
https://www.aei.org/economics/the-economic-self-harm-of-autarky-are-we-really-talking-about-america-making-everything-it-needs-in-america/john80 said:So we have an economy based around just in time delivery from other countries and no domestic resilience in the manufacturing sector. Maybe we should be looking at the UK manufacturing sector rather than thinking the solution is less Brexit maybe it is for us to become more independent. Rick's fridge does not need to be made in China and this is the point a large amount of you miss.
You are following the logic of various North Korean dictators. How rich are North Koreans right now?
Anybody mentions any kind of support for domestic manufacturing capability and you compare it to NK.
It’s as daft as Stevos blue tinted specs.
There isn’t only one economic model at play.
We should be open to the idea we could make more stuff, not least because it will create jobs for people who don’t/ can’t / shouldn’t work in service but can contribute to the economy.
The China manufacturing cost numbers aren’t exclusively in their favour and are moving against them with exorbitant shipping rates. Do you really want China to have a total monopoly on all global production? I don’t. They’re already far too close for my liking.
A lot of production has gone there as it’s easy for PE to leverage capital out of a business. Not because it has actually improved the business.
If you are concerned about security or resilience you can do either one of two things.
Harm your economy by creating barriers to free international trade, like insisting some stuff needs to be made within your own borders regardless of what is economically optimal, or, what sensible trading nations do (once upon a time this was the UK, when it was, naturally, the world superpower), which is use the endless wealth of this free trading approach to buy and stockpile the stuff you want.
The world dances to the tune of the richest nations, not the nations who try to fight the gravity of the laws of international trade.
What is this obsession with making stuff?
Make the stuff no-one else can. Why make stuff the rest of the world can make cheaper and better? Waste of everyone's time.0 -
If you look at all the golden ages in the world it is they all co-incide with liberal, 'trades freely with the world', liberal economic policy, pro free-market policies.
Demanding things be made within your own country to throw some red meat to the poor is just self defeating.
Why not create an economy where even the poor earn a lot, because they are adding a lot of value? Invest in education, infrastructure blah blah blah. So that even the poor are internationally competitive?1 -
Out of curiosity.elbowloh said:
I actually googled, out of interest, and LEC make fridges in the UK!pblakeney said:
There are reasons things are the way they are. Bring back British manufacturing? I'd say that's optimistic, at a level that maybe I could win the 2022 Tour. 🤣john80 said:So we have an economy based around just in time delivery from other countries and no domestic resilience in the manufacturing sector. Maybe we should be looking at the UK manufacturing sector rather than thinking the solution is less Brexit maybe it is for us to become more independent. Rick's fridge does not need to be made in China and this is the point a large amount of you miss.
If shopping for a fridge would LEC be on the list? Not on mine.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I have stated no preference on what we make. I agree trying to fight at the bottom end of the market is not beneficial.rick_chasey said:
Yeah when it comes to international trade, I think pretty much all the evidence is in favour of trading as freely as possible, quite frankly.morstar said:
There is absolutely no middle ground with you on this.rick_chasey said:
OK what part of what you're suggesting *isn't* the same as North Korean autarky policy where everything in North Korea must be made in North Korea?john80 said:
I think you should take a step back and consider your choices. You want a fridge from around the world. That is fraught with procurement risk which you are now suffering. Increased container costs and lead time are not Brexit related. Having a coherent industrial strategy is not akin to becoming North Korea bit yeah you keep banging the drum.rick_chasey said:
https://www.aei.org/economics/the-economic-self-harm-of-autarky-are-we-really-talking-about-america-making-everything-it-needs-in-america/john80 said:So we have an economy based around just in time delivery from other countries and no domestic resilience in the manufacturing sector. Maybe we should be looking at the UK manufacturing sector rather than thinking the solution is less Brexit maybe it is for us to become more independent. Rick's fridge does not need to be made in China and this is the point a large amount of you miss.
You are following the logic of various North Korean dictators. How rich are North Koreans right now?
Anybody mentions any kind of support for domestic manufacturing capability and you compare it to NK.
It’s as daft as Stevos blue tinted specs.
There isn’t only one economic model at play.
We should be open to the idea we could make more stuff, not least because it will create jobs for people who don’t/ can’t / shouldn’t work in service but can contribute to the economy.
The China manufacturing cost numbers aren’t exclusively in their favour and are moving against them with exorbitant shipping rates. Do you really want China to have a total monopoly on all global production? I don’t. They’re already far too close for my liking.
A lot of production has gone there as it’s easy for PE to leverage capital out of a business. Not because it has actually improved the business.
If you are concerned about security or resilience you can do either one of two things.
Harm your economy by creating barriers to free international trade, like insisting some stuff needs to be made within your own borders regardless of what is economically optimal, or, what sensible trading nations do (once upon a time this was the UK, when it was, naturally, the world superpower), which is use the endless wealth of this free trading approach to buy and stockpile the stuff you want.
The world dances to the tune of the richest nations, not the nations who try to fight the gravity of the laws of international trade.
What is this obsession with making stuff?
Make the stuff no-one else can. Why make stuff the rest of the world can make cheaper and better? Waste of everyone's time.
If (when) China mops up virtually all manufacturing, do you think we’ll still get good rates to buy from there or will we be beholden to uncompetitive practice?
I’ll give you a clue, they won’t be charitable.
What’s the obsession with making stuff? There are over 60M people in this country and not everybody wants to or can work in a service industry. If nothing else, it makes sense to put those resources to use.
Business isn’t just about filling gaps and supplying existing demand. It can also be about making demand for what you can do with the resources available.
You need to ask why the richest nations are that way. In some cases, it is sheer size. Germany isn’t particularly large though. I see only positives in trying to be a productive nation as well as good at services. We have just taken a myopic, biggest sector only, view of our economy.2 -
The UK needs to focus on niche specialist products.
China will simply swamp the market with anything that can be mass produced.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
They are getting very good at niche tech too. Leading the way in AI and stuff.pblakeney said:The UK needs to focus on niche specialist products.
China will simply swamp the market with anything that can be mass produced.0 -
Of course! Because plenty of clever people have worked out that doing stuff the rest of the world is worse at is a good idea.darkhairedlord said:
They are getting very good at niche tech too. Leading the way in AI and stuff.pblakeney said:The UK needs to focus on niche specialist products.
China will simply swamp the market with anything that can be mass produced.0 -
Assuming that you believe that a socialist utopia can deliver a successful industrial strategy how many decades do you think it would take to come to fruition?john80 said:
I think you should take a step back and consider your choices. You want a fridge from around the world. That is fraught with procurement risk which you are now suffering. Increased container costs and lead time are not Brexit related. Having a coherent industrial strategy is not akin to becoming North Korea bit yeah you keep banging the drum.rick_chasey said:
https://www.aei.org/economics/the-economic-self-harm-of-autarky-are-we-really-talking-about-america-making-everything-it-needs-in-america/john80 said:So we have an economy based around just in time delivery from other countries and no domestic resilience in the manufacturing sector. Maybe we should be looking at the UK manufacturing sector rather than thinking the solution is less Brexit maybe it is for us to become more independent. Rick's fridge does not need to be made in China and this is the point a large amount of you miss.
You are following the logic of various North Korean dictators. How rich are North Koreans right now?0 -
I think if Rick has to wait for smeg to set up a factory in the UK, that would probably be too late for his kitchen.0
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If China stops being competitive then someone else will produce it competitively. Even now, prices for chinese stuff is rising all the time as their incomes rise so the kind of tat that used to come from China 15 years ago is now being produced elsewhere anyway.morstar said:
I have stated no preference on what we make. I agree trying to fight at the bottom end of the market is not beneficial.rick_chasey said:
Yeah when it comes to international trade, I think pretty much all the evidence is in favour of trading as freely as possible, quite frankly.morstar said:
There is absolutely no middle ground with you on this.rick_chasey said:
OK what part of what you're suggesting *isn't* the same as North Korean autarky policy where everything in North Korea must be made in North Korea?john80 said:
I think you should take a step back and consider your choices. You want a fridge from around the world. That is fraught with procurement risk which you are now suffering. Increased container costs and lead time are not Brexit related. Having a coherent industrial strategy is not akin to becoming North Korea bit yeah you keep banging the drum.rick_chasey said:
https://www.aei.org/economics/the-economic-self-harm-of-autarky-are-we-really-talking-about-america-making-everything-it-needs-in-america/john80 said:So we have an economy based around just in time delivery from other countries and no domestic resilience in the manufacturing sector. Maybe we should be looking at the UK manufacturing sector rather than thinking the solution is less Brexit maybe it is for us to become more independent. Rick's fridge does not need to be made in China and this is the point a large amount of you miss.
You are following the logic of various North Korean dictators. How rich are North Koreans right now?
Anybody mentions any kind of support for domestic manufacturing capability and you compare it to NK.
It’s as daft as Stevos blue tinted specs.
There isn’t only one economic model at play.
We should be open to the idea we could make more stuff, not least because it will create jobs for people who don’t/ can’t / shouldn’t work in service but can contribute to the economy.
The China manufacturing cost numbers aren’t exclusively in their favour and are moving against them with exorbitant shipping rates. Do you really want China to have a total monopoly on all global production? I don’t. They’re already far too close for my liking.
A lot of production has gone there as it’s easy for PE to leverage capital out of a business. Not because it has actually improved the business.
If you are concerned about security or resilience you can do either one of two things.
Harm your economy by creating barriers to free international trade, like insisting some stuff needs to be made within your own borders regardless of what is economically optimal, or, what sensible trading nations do (once upon a time this was the UK, when it was, naturally, the world superpower), which is use the endless wealth of this free trading approach to buy and stockpile the stuff you want.
The world dances to the tune of the richest nations, not the nations who try to fight the gravity of the laws of international trade.
What is this obsession with making stuff?
Make the stuff no-one else can. Why make stuff the rest of the world can make cheaper and better? Waste of everyone's time.
If (when) China mops up virtually all manufacturing, do you think we’ll still get good rates to buy from there or will we be beholden to uncompetitive practice?
I’ll give you a clue, they won’t be charitable.
What’s the obsession with making stuff? There are over 60M people in this country and not everybody wants to or can work in a service industry. If nothing else, it makes sense to put those resources to use.
Business isn’t just about filling gaps and supplying existing demand. It can also be about making demand for what you can do with the resources available.
You need to ask why the richest nations are that way. In some cases, it is sheer size. Germany isn’t particularly large though. I see only positives in trying to be a productive nation as well as good at services. We have just taken a myopic, biggest sector only, view of our economy.
That is good sensible international trade, relying on comparative advantages.
Of course not everyone can work in services but you need to recognise that it should focus on things it can be competitive in. Going toe-to-toe with stuff the UK can't compete on is a waste of everyone's time, such as mass production manufacturing.
Increasing friction in order to stimulate a bit of extra internal demand, like John80 says which is why we are on the topic, is entirely self defeating. Why give uncompetitive firms an artificial boost through barriers to trade when you could give the firm's or the people of the firms the tools to actually be internationally competitive?
The world has moved on from Britain mass producing stuff. Get over it. Look at what Britain is good at and back that.
The entire global economy, the entire basis of the entire world's prosperity is based on the idea of specialisation.
For the same reason we don't all grow all of our own food, manufacture all of our own furniture and crockery, computers, windows, houses blah blah and everything else - we leave it to specialised people or firms who can do that for us - the same logic applies to international trade.
I am not good at making stuff with my hands, so I have focused on doing stuff that earns me good money to buy stuff from people who can make stuff with their hands.0 -
Don't forget we have a 5 year head start though, having begun preparations in 2016.surrey_commuter said:
Assuming that you believe that a socialist utopia can deliver a successful industrial strategy how many decades do you think it would take to come to fruition?john80 said:
I think you should take a step back and consider your choices. You want a fridge from around the world. That is fraught with procurement risk which you are now suffering. Increased container costs and lead time are not Brexit related. Having a coherent industrial strategy is not akin to becoming North Korea bit yeah you keep banging the drum.rick_chasey said:
https://www.aei.org/economics/the-economic-self-harm-of-autarky-are-we-really-talking-about-america-making-everything-it-needs-in-america/john80 said:So we have an economy based around just in time delivery from other countries and no domestic resilience in the manufacturing sector. Maybe we should be looking at the UK manufacturing sector rather than thinking the solution is less Brexit maybe it is for us to become more independent. Rick's fridge does not need to be made in China and this is the point a large amount of you miss.
You are following the logic of various North Korean dictators. How rich are North Koreans right now?
- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
I agree about specialisation but it is also clear to see a one dimensional approach.rick_chasey said:
If China stops being competitive then someone else will produce it competitively. Even now, prices for chinese stuff is rising all the time as their incomes rise so the kind of tat that used to come from China 15 years ago is now being produced elsewhere anyway.morstar said:
I have stated no preference on what we make. I agree trying to fight at the bottom end of the market is not beneficial.rick_chasey said:
Yeah when it comes to international trade, I think pretty much all the evidence is in favour of trading as freely as possible, quite frankly.morstar said:
There is absolutely no middle ground with you on this.rick_chasey said:
OK what part of what you're suggesting *isn't* the same as North Korean autarky policy where everything in North Korea must be made in North Korea?john80 said:
I think you should take a step back and consider your choices. You want a fridge from around the world. That is fraught with procurement risk which you are now suffering. Increased container costs and lead time are not Brexit related. Having a coherent industrial strategy is not akin to becoming North Korea bit yeah you keep banging the drum.rick_chasey said:
https://www.aei.org/economics/the-economic-self-harm-of-autarky-are-we-really-talking-about-america-making-everything-it-needs-in-america/john80 said:So we have an economy based around just in time delivery from other countries and no domestic resilience in the manufacturing sector. Maybe we should be looking at the UK manufacturing sector rather than thinking the solution is less Brexit maybe it is for us to become more independent. Rick's fridge does not need to be made in China and this is the point a large amount of you miss.
You are following the logic of various North Korean dictators. How rich are North Koreans right now?
Anybody mentions any kind of support for domestic manufacturing capability and you compare it to NK.
It’s as daft as Stevos blue tinted specs.
There isn’t only one economic model at play.
We should be open to the idea we could make more stuff, not least because it will create jobs for people who don’t/ can’t / shouldn’t work in service but can contribute to the economy.
The China manufacturing cost numbers aren’t exclusively in their favour and are moving against them with exorbitant shipping rates. Do you really want China to have a total monopoly on all global production? I don’t. They’re already far too close for my liking.
A lot of production has gone there as it’s easy for PE to leverage capital out of a business. Not because it has actually improved the business.
If you are concerned about security or resilience you can do either one of two things.
Harm your economy by creating barriers to free international trade, like insisting some stuff needs to be made within your own borders regardless of what is economically optimal, or, what sensible trading nations do (once upon a time this was the UK, when it was, naturally, the world superpower), which is use the endless wealth of this free trading approach to buy and stockpile the stuff you want.
The world dances to the tune of the richest nations, not the nations who try to fight the gravity of the laws of international trade.
What is this obsession with making stuff?
Make the stuff no-one else can. Why make stuff the rest of the world can make cheaper and better? Waste of everyone's time.
If (when) China mops up virtually all manufacturing, do you think we’ll still get good rates to buy from there or will we be beholden to uncompetitive practice?
I’ll give you a clue, they won’t be charitable.
What’s the obsession with making stuff? There are over 60M people in this country and not everybody wants to or can work in a service industry. If nothing else, it makes sense to put those resources to use.
Business isn’t just about filling gaps and supplying existing demand. It can also be about making demand for what you can do with the resources available.
You need to ask why the richest nations are that way. In some cases, it is sheer size. Germany isn’t particularly large though. I see only positives in trying to be a productive nation as well as good at services. We have just taken a myopic, biggest sector only, view of our economy.
That is good sensible international trade, relying on comparative advantages.
Of course not everyone can work in services but you need to recognise that it should focus on things it can be competitive in. Going toe-to-toe with stuff the UK can't compete on is a waste of everyone's time, such as mass production manufacturing.
Increasing friction in order to stimulate a bit of extra internal demand, like John80 says which is why we are on the topic, is entirely self defeating. Why give uncompetitive firms an artificial boost through barriers to trade when you could give the firm's or the people of the firms the tools to actually be internationally competitive?
The world has moved on from Britain mass producing stuff. Get over it. Look at what Britain is good at and back that.
The entire global economy, the entire basis of the entire world's prosperity is based on the idea of specialisation.
For the same reason we don't all grow all of our own food, manufacture all of our own furniture and crockery, computers, windows, houses blah blah and everything else - we leave it to specialised people or firms who can do that for us - the same logic applies to international trade.
I am not good at making stuff with my hands, so I have focused on doing stuff that earns me good money to buy stuff from people who can make stuff with their hands.
Efficiency and success isn’t just about meeting objective no. 1 as effectively as possible.
There is also significant revenue in realising capacity. We simply don’t do that. As a nation we have underused capacity. It is economically beneficial to change that even if it isn’t going to compete with FS.
You strike me as an Apple fan. What they haven’t done is respond to what the market asks for. What they have done is created demand for what they want to sell and how they want to sell it. Business isn’t linear and neither should our economy be myopic about how to serve itself.
China are also cornering raw materials markets wherever possible which will restrict market access when they do start (increasingly) being anti competitive.
I’m actually good with my hands but apart from a Student summer job, I have never manufactured anything commercially in my life in case you think I’m some factory numpty with no idea about business.0 -
See "one of the best Youtube Productions I've ever seen"'s video on how production barriers don't always work out for the best...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOwxxsPaogY We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Youtube tutorials can be very useful for those of us not naturally adept at making things, have you looked for one on making fridges?rick_chasey said:
If China stops being competitive then someone else will produce it competitively. Even now, prices for chinese stuff is rising all the time as their incomes rise so the kind of tat that used to come from China 15 years ago is now being produced elsewhere anyway.morstar said:
I have stated no preference on what we make. I agree trying to fight at the bottom end of the market is not beneficial.rick_chasey said:
Yeah when it comes to international trade, I think pretty much all the evidence is in favour of trading as freely as possible, quite frankly.morstar said:
There is absolutely no middle ground with you on this.rick_chasey said:
OK what part of what you're suggesting *isn't* the same as North Korean autarky policy where everything in North Korea must be made in North Korea?john80 said:
I think you should take a step back and consider your choices. You want a fridge from around the world. That is fraught with procurement risk which you are now suffering. Increased container costs and lead time are not Brexit related. Having a coherent industrial strategy is not akin to becoming North Korea bit yeah you keep banging the drum.rick_chasey said:
https://www.aei.org/economics/the-economic-self-harm-of-autarky-are-we-really-talking-about-america-making-everything-it-needs-in-america/john80 said:So we have an economy based around just in time delivery from other countries and no domestic resilience in the manufacturing sector. Maybe we should be looking at the UK manufacturing sector rather than thinking the solution is less Brexit maybe it is for us to become more independent. Rick's fridge does not need to be made in China and this is the point a large amount of you miss.
You are following the logic of various North Korean dictators. How rich are North Koreans right now?
Anybody mentions any kind of support for domestic manufacturing capability and you compare it to NK.
It’s as daft as Stevos blue tinted specs.
There isn’t only one economic model at play.
We should be open to the idea we could make more stuff, not least because it will create jobs for people who don’t/ can’t / shouldn’t work in service but can contribute to the economy.
The China manufacturing cost numbers aren’t exclusively in their favour and are moving against them with exorbitant shipping rates. Do you really want China to have a total monopoly on all global production? I don’t. They’re already far too close for my liking.
A lot of production has gone there as it’s easy for PE to leverage capital out of a business. Not because it has actually improved the business.
If you are concerned about security or resilience you can do either one of two things.
Harm your economy by creating barriers to free international trade, like insisting some stuff needs to be made within your own borders regardless of what is economically optimal, or, what sensible trading nations do (once upon a time this was the UK, when it was, naturally, the world superpower), which is use the endless wealth of this free trading approach to buy and stockpile the stuff you want.
The world dances to the tune of the richest nations, not the nations who try to fight the gravity of the laws of international trade.
What is this obsession with making stuff?
Make the stuff no-one else can. Why make stuff the rest of the world can make cheaper and better? Waste of everyone's time.
If (when) China mops up virtually all manufacturing, do you think we’ll still get good rates to buy from there or will we be beholden to uncompetitive practice?
I’ll give you a clue, they won’t be charitable.
What’s the obsession with making stuff? There are over 60M people in this country and not everybody wants to or can work in a service industry. If nothing else, it makes sense to put those resources to use.
Business isn’t just about filling gaps and supplying existing demand. It can also be about making demand for what you can do with the resources available.
You need to ask why the richest nations are that way. In some cases, it is sheer size. Germany isn’t particularly large though. I see only positives in trying to be a productive nation as well as good at services. We have just taken a myopic, biggest sector only, view of our economy.
That is good sensible international trade, relying on comparative advantages.
Of course not everyone can work in services but you need to recognise that it should focus on things it can be competitive in. Going toe-to-toe with stuff the UK can't compete on is a waste of everyone's time, such as mass production manufacturing.
Increasing friction in order to stimulate a bit of extra internal demand, like John80 says which is why we are on the topic, is entirely self defeating. Why give uncompetitive firms an artificial boost through barriers to trade when you could give the firm's or the people of the firms the tools to actually be internationally competitive?
The world has moved on from Britain mass producing stuff. Get over it. Look at what Britain is good at and back that.
The entire global economy, the entire basis of the entire world's prosperity is based on the idea of specialisation.
For the same reason we don't all grow all of our own food, manufacture all of our own furniture and crockery, computers, windows, houses blah blah and everything else - we leave it to specialised people or firms who can do that for us - the same logic applies to international trade.
I am not good at making stuff with my hands, so I have focused on doing stuff that earns me good money to buy stuff from people who can make stuff with their hands.
alternatively post up your fridge and let's see if the hive can source one for you0 -
whilst those 5 years were long enough to solve the HGV driver shortage and to provide light at the end of the vet/doctor/nurse tunnel it is but a fleabite in the world of industrial strategies. But to paraphrase John's idol the longest journey begins with a single step.pangolin said:
Don't forget we have a 5 year head start though, having begun preparations in 2016.surrey_commuter said:
Assuming that you believe that a socialist utopia can deliver a successful industrial strategy how many decades do you think it would take to come to fruition?john80 said:
I think you should take a step back and consider your choices. You want a fridge from around the world. That is fraught with procurement risk which you are now suffering. Increased container costs and lead time are not Brexit related. Having a coherent industrial strategy is not akin to becoming North Korea bit yeah you keep banging the drum.rick_chasey said:
https://www.aei.org/economics/the-economic-self-harm-of-autarky-are-we-really-talking-about-america-making-everything-it-needs-in-america/john80 said:So we have an economy based around just in time delivery from other countries and no domestic resilience in the manufacturing sector. Maybe we should be looking at the UK manufacturing sector rather than thinking the solution is less Brexit maybe it is for us to become more independent. Rick's fridge does not need to be made in China and this is the point a large amount of you miss.
You are following the logic of various North Korean dictators. How rich are North Koreans right now?0 -
I am meh about apple but they're a good example of both letting the market do it's thing and b) specialisation.
They design the stuff in California, but the manufacture is all over the place.
The bulk of the money is in the design of it, which is the value add stuff. Else the manufacturers of the iphones and the ipads would be the biggest company in the world.
They don't even manufacture the phones themselves. There's a whole industry of different firms who make the various things that go into phones and ipads and macs etc all over the world.
Apple would not be so big nor so valuable if they were forced to manufacture the entire contents of the phones etc in the states.0 -
Missed my point which is my bad.rick_chasey said:I am meh about apple but they're a good example of both letting the market do it's thing and b) specialisation.
They design the stuff in California, but the manufacture is all over the place.
The bulk of the money is in the design of it, which is the value add stuff. Else the manufacturers of the iphones and the ipads would be the biggest company in the world.
They don't even manufacture the phones themselves. There's a whole industry of different firms who make the various things that go into phones and ipads and macs etc all over the world.
Apple would not be so big nor so valuable if they were forced to manufacture the entire contents of the phones etc in the states.
Apple are a marketing company. They create demand for what they make. And do loads of anti competitive stuff too.0 -
We're getting further from Brexit with every post but...
For every Apple there's a Samsung, one's a good example of running things one way, one a good example of doing more of the manufacturing yourself.
I honestly think its frequently more to do with the latest fashion among managers than any insightful tactic.0 -
Sure. But the govt can’t create the next google. You need the iterative process of a truly free market to weed out the 999999 useless versions first.morstar said:
Missed my point which is my bad.rick_chasey said:I am meh about apple but they're a good example of both letting the market do it's thing and b) specialisation.
They design the stuff in California, but the manufacture is all over the place.
The bulk of the money is in the design of it, which is the value add stuff. Else the manufacturers of the iphones and the ipads would be the biggest company in the world.
They don't even manufacture the phones themselves. There's a whole industry of different firms who make the various things that go into phones and ipads and macs etc all over the world.
Apple would not be so big nor so valuable if they were forced to manufacture the entire contents of the phones etc in the states.
Apple are a marketing company. They create demand for what they make. And do loads of anti competitive stuff too.
I would be more sympathetic to the argument that sometimes it is worthwhile raising barriers in an attempt to incubate firms with a few to getting them into a position to be internationally competitive (IIRC Samsung is an example of this) but I absolutely maintain there is no logical economic reason to create artificial trade barriers in order to stimulate an otherwise uncompetitive business or industry in order to keep more people of a certain class in a dying job.
That is what john80 and others are suggesting.
If you are voting for Brexit to raise barriers to trade for you are cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Britain became great in the 19th century as it was as pure a trading nation as it would get for the era. Anyone and everyone would trade.
Trade makes you rich. Throwing up barriers to trade does not.0 -
Has that not got more to do with Samsung being based in Asia to begin with?Jezyboy said:We're getting further from Brexit with every post but...
For every Apple there's a Samsung, one's a good example of running things one way, one a good example of doing more of the manufacturing yourself.
I honestly think its frequently more to do with the latest fashion among managers than any insightful tactic.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Meh, Apple could set up their own manufacturing operations in Asia or Mexico (or South America) or even some rust belt backwater. Instead they farm it out to Foxconn.pblakeney said:
Has that not got more to do with Samsung being based in Asia to begin with?Jezyboy said:We're getting further from Brexit with every post but...
For every Apple there's a Samsung, one's a good example of running things one way, one a good example of doing more of the manufacturing yourself.
I honestly think its frequently more to do with the latest fashion among managers than any insightful tactic.
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