BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

briantrumpet

ddraver said:

The problem there is that UK vets want to play with horses and puppies rather than check that one of the 500 cows covered in sh1te about to be slaughtered for Findus lasagne hasn't got TB...

Dunno if you read Private Eye, but the provision of vets for sanitary checks is an absolute scandal, with one company having the monopoly of provision, pays peanuts, was utterly unprepared for Brexit, and with salaries barely enough for a McDonalds University graduate, surprise surprise, they can't get enough vets to do the job.

TheBigBean

ddraver said:

Live in such a rural location next door to a vet, whole side of family are vets and best family friends are vets but...feel away

And they all wish they were doing equine, but are stuck doing cows?

morstar

ddraver said:

The problem there is that UK vets want to play with horses and puppies rather than check that one of the 500 cows covered in sh1te about to be slaughtered for Findus lasagne hasn't got TB...

I agree with this but I also don’t see it as an unreasonable stance.

You pay a fortune in fees and study incredibly hard due to a love of animals.

Supervising industrialised killing is hardly what you are aspiring to achieve.

But it’s a whole classic closed shop situation of not training enough and also it being a romanticised profession.

All the vet shows on TV don’t help either. Even the animals that are lost are usually in a light and airy barn with a bed of fresh straw.

briantrumpet

morstar said:

ddraver said:

The problem there is that UK vets want to play with horses and puppies rather than check that one of the 500 cows covered in sh1te about to be slaughtered for Findus lasagne hasn't got TB...

I agree with this but I also don’t see it as an unreasonable stance.

You pay a fortune in fees and study incredibly hard due to a love of animals.

Supervising industrialised killing is hardly what you are aspiring to achieve.

But it’s a whole classic closed shop situation of not training enough and also it being a romanticised profession.

All the vet shows on TV don’t help either. Even the animals that are lost are usually in a light and airy barn with a bed of fresh straw.

One of the most remarkable things I've seen is vets operating on a displaced abomasums on cows, in farmyard conditions. I think I've seen it four times, and each time it's been 100% successful, despite the difficulty and invasiveness of the operation, and the less-than-ideal surgery conditions.

surrey_commuter

elbowloh said:

jimmyjams said:

elbowloh said:

Pross said:

elbowloh said:

Dorset_Boy said:

I have a sister who is a vet. Aparently, in their drive for equality in the profession, a disproportionately large number of females were offered places at vet school over the last 10-15 years or so. Now a lot of them have or are having families and don't want to work full time or the on call shift patterns, and this is a major problem for practices.

The shift patterns are often censored though. When in private practice the wife was expected to work 08.00-18.00 most days, with pretty much no breaks, on the days she was on lates it was like 11.00-21.00 and often on those lates she didn't come home until 23.00. Then it was 1 in four weekends on top of that (both Saturday and Sunday). I wouldn't want those hours, i'd want to work "part time" and end up working what equates to a regular 9-5.

It's always a surprise to me that it seems to be the most difficult degree course to get a place on when those capable of the required grades could go for pretty much any course then go out and earn more.

oh, and those Saturdays and Sundays were 9.00-21.00.

The vet school courses have masses of applicants, it seems the practices were fine to burn their staff out as there were plenty more coming through the pipeline.

I'm surprised to read this.
In late Autumn 2018 on a coastal walk, I encounted a vet and his daughters and we got chatting. He told me that because the UK doesn't train as many vets (both surgeons and nurses) as it requires, about half of all vets in the UK are from the EU, like he was. He also said that many of them (i.e. vets from the EU) would have once regarded themselves as settled in the UK, as he had, however, because of Brexit he thought a good quarter of them, himself included, were seriously thinking of returning to the EU, and that in fact between the Brexit vote and when we met, 5-10% had already returned to the EU.
That doesn't sound like the situation you describe, unless in the last few years there has coincidentally been a sudden and major increase in the number of new UK-trained vets graduating.

Yeah, I meant by pipeline both immigrants and uni's. I think it's more like 30% are non UK citizens, mainly (in my experience) Spanish and Italians.

Only anecdotal, but all the EU vets I know have stayed in the UK.

The vet woman I was talking to said they could not even get a locum as so many had gone back to where they belong

pblakeney

surrey_commuter said:

elbowloh said:

jimmyjams said:

elbowloh said:

Pross said:

elbowloh said:

Dorset_Boy said:

I have a sister who is a vet. Aparently, in their drive for equality in the profession, a disproportionately large number of females were offered places at vet school over the last 10-15 years or so. Now a lot of them have or are having families and don't want to work full time or the on call shift patterns, and this is a major problem for practices.

The shift patterns are often censored though. When in private practice the wife was expected to work 08.00-18.00 most days, with pretty much no breaks, on the days she was on lates it was like 11.00-21.00 and often on those lates she didn't come home until 23.00. Then it was 1 in four weekends on top of that (both Saturday and Sunday). I wouldn't want those hours, i'd want to work "part time" and end up working what equates to a regular 9-5.

It's always a surprise to me that it seems to be the most difficult degree course to get a place on when those capable of the required grades could go for pretty much any course then go out and earn more.

oh, and those Saturdays and Sundays were 9.00-21.00.

The vet school courses have masses of applicants, it seems the practices were fine to burn their staff out as there were plenty more coming through the pipeline.

I'm surprised to read this.
In late Autumn 2018 on a coastal walk, I encounted a vet and his daughters and we got chatting. He told me that because the UK doesn't train as many vets (both surgeons and nurses) as it requires, about half of all vets in the UK are from the EU, like he was. He also said that many of them (i.e. vets from the EU) would have once regarded themselves as settled in the UK, as he had, however, because of Brexit he thought a good quarter of them, himself included, were seriously thinking of returning to the EU, and that in fact between the Brexit vote and when we met, 5-10% had already returned to the EU.
That doesn't sound like the situation you describe, unless in the last few years there has coincidentally been a sudden and major increase in the number of new UK-trained vets graduating.

Yeah, I meant by pipeline both immigrants and uni's. I think it's more like 30% are non UK citizens, mainly (in my experience) Spanish and Italians.

Only anecdotal, but all the EU vets I know have stayed in the UK.

The vet woman I was talking to said they could not even get a locum as so many had gone back to where they belong

I wonder if that was an unfortunate choice of phrase or deliberate.

morstar

briantrumpet said:

morstar said:

ddraver said:

The problem there is that UK vets want to play with horses and puppies rather than check that one of the 500 cows covered in sh1te about to be slaughtered for Findus lasagne hasn't got TB...

I agree with this but I also don’t see it as an unreasonable stance.

You pay a fortune in fees and study incredibly hard due to a love of animals.

Supervising industrialised killing is hardly what you are aspiring to achieve.

But it’s a whole classic closed shop situation of not training enough and also it being a romanticised profession.

All the vet shows on TV don’t help either. Even the animals that are lost are usually in a light and airy barn with a bed of fresh straw.

One of the most remarkable things I've seen is vets operating on a displaced abomasums on cows, in farmyard conditions. I think I've seen it four times, and each time it's been 100% successful, despite the difficulty and invasiveness of the operation, and the less-than-ideal surgery conditions.

It’s incredible what they can do. I can 100% understand the calling but it never appealed to me.
Daughter was following the path with uni applications for 2020 entry and they do go out of their way to remove the romanticism. I was quite relieved when her pathway changed.

rjsterry

morstar said:

ddraver said:

The problem there is that UK vets want to play with horses and puppies rather than check that one of the 500 cows covered in sh1te about to be slaughtered for Findus lasagne hasn't got TB...

I agree with this but I also don’t see it as an unreasonable stance.

You pay a fortune in fees and study incredibly hard due to a love of animals.

Supervising industrialised killing is hardly what you are aspiring to achieve.

But it’s a whole classic closed shop situation of not training enough and also it being a romanticised profession.

All the vet shows on TV don’t help either. Even the animals that are lost are usually in a light and airy barn with a bed of fresh straw.

I'm not sure this entirely accurate. The numbers are limited by the number of placements that can be offered for seeing practice, much like the number of medical students are limited by the capacity of teaching hospitals and GP practices where they can learn. It's true that the meat industry does rely on a lot of European vets, but I don't think that aspect of the job is incompatible with caring for animals. There's nothing odd about wanting the meat to be produced to the highest welfare standards and as humanely as possible.

I don't think the profession's portrayal on TV is any less accurate than any other. They are all sexed-up. If you choose a profession based on a TV programme then you probably shouldn't be in any profession.

pblakeney

rjsterry said:

...If you choose a profession based on a TV programme then you probably shouldn't be in any profession.

Dunno. That Moviestar programme would have been enough to put me off the concept of being in a professional team. 😉

morstar

rjsterry said:

morstar said:

ddraver said:

The problem there is that UK vets want to play with horses and puppies rather than check that one of the 500 cows covered in sh1te about to be slaughtered for Findus lasagne hasn't got TB...

I agree with this but I also don’t see it as an unreasonable stance.

You pay a fortune in fees and study incredibly hard due to a love of animals.

Supervising industrialised killing is hardly what you are aspiring to achieve.

But it’s a whole classic closed shop situation of not training enough and also it being a romanticised profession.

All the vet shows on TV don’t help either. Even the animals that are lost are usually in a light and airy barn with a bed of fresh straw.

I'm not sure this entirely accurate. The numbers are limited by the number of placements that can be offered for seeing practice, much like the number of medical students are limited by the capacity of teaching hospitals and GP practices where they can learn. It's true that the meat industry does rely on a lot of European vets, but I don't think that aspect of the job is incompatible with caring for animals. There's nothing odd about wanting the meat to be produced to the highest welfare standards and as humanely as possible.

I don't think the profession's portrayal on TV is any less accurate than any other. They are all sexed-up. If you choose a profession based on a TV programme then you probably shouldn't be in any profession.

I agree there is finite capacity for training more vets. However, I very much doubt we’re there (layman’s uninformed opinion).
Professional bodies are not typically dynamic and seeking ways to evolve is my very generalised but usually accurate belief.

If somebody took a holistic view of the whole setup and was tasked with identifying how training could produce more vets, I would be amazed if they couldn’t identify capacity.

Even if it is not the overriding issue, I guarantee there are vested protectionist interests within the hierarchy.

As for meat trade. I accept there is a need to maintain animal welfare within it but there is a difference between treating an animal on a farm knowing it’s destiny and working in an abbatoir.

For clarification, I’m vegetarian so have no hypocrisy about the issue. I can’t stand the thought of setting foot in an abbatoir.

rjsterry

morstar said:

rjsterry said:

morstar said:

ddraver said:

The problem there is that UK vets want to play with horses and puppies rather than check that one of the 500 cows covered in sh1te about to be slaughtered for Findus lasagne hasn't got TB...

I agree with this but I also don’t see it as an unreasonable stance.

You pay a fortune in fees and study incredibly hard due to a love of animals.

Supervising industrialised killing is hardly what you are aspiring to achieve.

But it’s a whole classic closed shop situation of not training enough and also it being a romanticised profession.

All the vet shows on TV don’t help either. Even the animals that are lost are usually in a light and airy barn with a bed of fresh straw.

I'm not sure this entirely accurate. The numbers are limited by the number of placements that can be offered for seeing practice, much like the number of medical students are limited by the capacity of teaching hospitals and GP practices where they can learn. It's true that the meat industry does rely on a lot of European vets, but I don't think that aspect of the job is incompatible with caring for animals. There's nothing odd about wanting the meat to be produced to the highest welfare standards and as humanely as possible.

I don't think the profession's portrayal on TV is any less accurate than any other. They are all sexed-up. If you choose a profession based on a TV programme then you probably shouldn't be in any profession.

I agree there is finite capacity for training more vets. However, I very much doubt we’re there (layman’s uninformed opinion).
Professional bodies are not typically dynamic and seeking ways to evolve is my very generalised but usually accurate belief.

If somebody took a holistic view of the whole setup and was tasked with identifying how training could produce more vets, I would be amazed if they couldn’t identify capacity.

Even if it is not the overriding issue, I guarantee there are vested protectionist interests within the hierarchy.

As for meat trade. I accept there is a need to maintain animal welfare within it but there is a difference between treating an animal on a farm knowing it’s destiny and working in an abbatoir.

For clarification, I’m vegetarian so have no hypocrisy about the issue. I can’t stand the thought of setting foot in an abbatoir.

I wasn't suggesting any hypocrisy; I just disagree that there is a conflict between caring for animals and meat production. I think if you are squeamish, veterinary medicine is not for you full stop.

I've probably mentioned that both my folks were vets. Inspection of the local abattoir provided a decent chunk of the practice's income and my dad ended up making a second career out of it working for the Meat Hygiene Service/Food Standards Authority.

On the main point, if someone is trying to keep veterinary wages high by restricting entry they are failing miserably. If anything the pressure on salaries has been downward.

ddraver

morstar said:

ddraver said:

The problem there is that UK vets want to play with horses and puppies rather than check that one of the 500 cows covered in sh1te about to be slaughtered for Findus lasagne hasn't got TB...

I agree with this but I also don’t see it as an unreasonable stance.

You pay a fortune in fees and study incredibly hard due to a love of animals.

Sure. It wasn't meant as a criticism. Just a problem that now needs solving having told all the people that used to do it to go home...

It's happening in medicine too from what I hear from that side of the family. All the boys who think they're House want to be heart or orthopedic surgeons and the girls want to deliver and treat babies (as long as they re born weekdays 9 - 5). No one wants to scoop drink people up on Saturday nights or listen to a half deaf granny go on about how their legs hurt when they walk from bed to armchair and back once a day.

Once reality kicks in they take their brains to more financially rewarding jobs (or New Zealand)

surrey_commuter

pblakeney said:

surrey_commuter said:

elbowloh said:

jimmyjams said:

elbowloh said:

Pross said:

elbowloh said:

Dorset_Boy said:

I have a sister who is a vet. Aparently, in their drive for equality in the profession, a disproportionately large number of females were offered places at vet school over the last 10-15 years or so. Now a lot of them have or are having families and don't want to work full time or the on call shift patterns, and this is a major problem for practices.

The shift patterns are often censored though. When in private practice the wife was expected to work 08.00-18.00 most days, with pretty much no breaks, on the days she was on lates it was like 11.00-21.00 and often on those lates she didn't come home until 23.00. Then it was 1 in four weekends on top of that (both Saturday and Sunday). I wouldn't want those hours, i'd want to work "part time" and end up working what equates to a regular 9-5.

It's always a surprise to me that it seems to be the most difficult degree course to get a place on when those capable of the required grades could go for pretty much any course then go out and earn more.

oh, and those Saturdays and Sundays were 9.00-21.00.

The vet school courses have masses of applicants, it seems the practices were fine to burn their staff out as there were plenty more coming through the pipeline.

I'm surprised to read this.
In late Autumn 2018 on a coastal walk, I encounted a vet and his daughters and we got chatting. He told me that because the UK doesn't train as many vets (both surgeons and nurses) as it requires, about half of all vets in the UK are from the EU, like he was. He also said that many of them (i.e. vets from the EU) would have once regarded themselves as settled in the UK, as he had, however, because of Brexit he thought a good quarter of them, himself included, were seriously thinking of returning to the EU, and that in fact between the Brexit vote and when we met, 5-10% had already returned to the EU.
That doesn't sound like the situation you describe, unless in the last few years there has coincidentally been a sudden and major increase in the number of new UK-trained vets graduating.

Yeah, I meant by pipeline both immigrants and uni's. I think it's more like 30% are non UK citizens, mainly (in my experience) Spanish and Italians.

Only anecdotal, but all the EU vets I know have stayed in the UK.

The vet woman I was talking to said they could not even get a locum as so many had gone back to where they belong

I wonder if that was an unfortunate choice of phrase or deliberate.

Definitely the latter

pblakeney

surrey_commuter said:

pblakeney said:

surrey_commuter said:

elbowloh said:

jimmyjams said:

elbowloh said:

Pross said:

elbowloh said:

Dorset_Boy said:

I have a sister who is a vet. Aparently, in their drive for equality in the profession, a disproportionately large number of females were offered places at vet school over the last 10-15 years or so. Now a lot of them have or are having families and don't want to work full time or the on call shift patterns, and this is a major problem for practices.

The shift patterns are often censored though. When in private practice the wife was expected to work 08.00-18.00 most days, with pretty much no breaks, on the days she was on lates it was like 11.00-21.00 and often on those lates she didn't come home until 23.00. Then it was 1 in four weekends on top of that (both Saturday and Sunday). I wouldn't want those hours, i'd want to work "part time" and end up working what equates to a regular 9-5.

It's always a surprise to me that it seems to be the most difficult degree course to get a place on when those capable of the required grades could go for pretty much any course then go out and earn more.

oh, and those Saturdays and Sundays were 9.00-21.00.

The vet school courses have masses of applicants, it seems the practices were fine to burn their staff out as there were plenty more coming through the pipeline.

I'm surprised to read this.
In late Autumn 2018 on a coastal walk, I encounted a vet and his daughters and we got chatting. He told me that because the UK doesn't train as many vets (both surgeons and nurses) as it requires, about half of all vets in the UK are from the EU, like he was. He also said that many of them (i.e. vets from the EU) would have once regarded themselves as settled in the UK, as he had, however, because of Brexit he thought a good quarter of them, himself included, were seriously thinking of returning to the EU, and that in fact between the Brexit vote and when we met, 5-10% had already returned to the EU.
That doesn't sound like the situation you describe, unless in the last few years there has coincidentally been a sudden and major increase in the number of new UK-trained vets graduating.

Yeah, I meant by pipeline both immigrants and uni's. I think it's more like 30% are non UK citizens, mainly (in my experience) Spanish and Italians.

Only anecdotal, but all the EU vets I know have stayed in the UK.

The vet woman I was talking to said they could not even get a locum as so many had gone back to where they belong

I wonder if that was an unfortunate choice of phrase or deliberate.

Definitely the latter

Her words, or yours?

elbowloh

Vodafone are following EE and bringing back roaming charges for customers travelling to the EU. £2 per day, £1 per day if you buy a pre-pay bundle. Also limited by fair usage of 25gb per month.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58146039

pblakeney

elbowloh said:

Vodafone are following EE and bringing back roaming charges for customers travelling to the EU. £2 per day, £1 per day if you buy a pre-pay bundle. Also limited by fair usage of 25gb per month.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58146039

Knew this was coming.
Remainers expected it. Brexiteers have an "At any cost" attitude.
Brexiteers moaning can GTF.

elbowloh

Levelling up?

A letter to Boris Johnson sent a fortnight ago by James Ramsbotham called on the prime minister to save the north-east from the “damage being done to our economy” by Brexit and urged him to give it his “most urgent and personal attention”. Two weeks later, it remains unanswered.

Ramsbotham is the chief executive of the North East England Chamber of Commerce and speaks for thousands of businesses caught by the red tape and extra costs of complying with EU rules. In a recent survey, 38% of members said sales to Europe had fallen since January.

“This is not teething problems,” he says. “Our ports face the EU and our region has the highest proportion of any exporting to the EU. It is vital that more barriers come down.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/aug/09/no-strategic-plan-brexit-james-ramsbotham-north-east-chamber-of-commerce

surrey_commuter

elbowloh said:

Levelling up?

A letter to Boris Johnson sent a fortnight ago by James Ramsbotham called on the prime minister to save the north-east from the “damage being done to our economy” by Brexit and urged him to give it his “most urgent and personal attention”. Two weeks later, it remains unanswered.

Ramsbotham is the chief executive of the North East England Chamber of Commerce and speaks for thousands of businesses caught by the red tape and extra costs of complying with EU rules. In a recent survey, 38% of members said sales to Europe had fallen since January.

“This is not teething problems,” he says. “Our ports face the EU and our region has the highest proportion of any exporting to the EU. It is vital that more barriers come down.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/aug/09/no-strategic-plan-brexit-james-ramsbotham-north-east-chamber-of-commerce

Boris should write back and tell him to go fvck himself. They voted to make themselves poorer and it is too late to change their minds.

Stevo_666

Good timing, the thread was going to drop off page 1 before too long

elbowloh

Stevo_666 said:

Good timing, the thread was going to drop off page 1 before too long

The stories keep coming.

kingstongraham

elbowloh said:

Stevo_666 said:

Good timing, the thread was going to drop off page 1 before too long

The stories keep coming.

They aren't Brexit related though. This is just an issue within the UK.

Brexit is all done and finished.

Stevo_666

elbowloh said:

Stevo_666 said:

Good timing, the thread was going to drop off page 1 before too long

The stories keep coming.

This thread used to get dozens of post a day. It's quite telling that it went 10 days before you bumped it.

kingstongraham

You want a daily reminder that Brexit was a bad idea?

TheBigBean

I have enjoyed hearing the same people argue that the current staff shortages are the result of Brexit, but that the wage increases are nothing to do with Brexit.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

You want a daily reminder that Brexit was a bad idea?

I don't need a daily reminder that it's no longer a big issue for me or most people.

pangolin

Meanwhile over on page 66 of the forum, the benefits of brexit thread remains oddly quiet.

elbowloh

kingstongraham said:

elbowloh said:

Stevo_666 said:

Good timing, the thread was going to drop off page 1 before too long

The stories keep coming.

They aren't Brexit related though. This is just an issue within the UK.

Brexit is all done and finished.

"Brexit" is in the article 7 times including the title. It mentions the government's own "SME Brexit Support Fund" which unsurprisingly is supposed to help SMEs cope with Brexit.

It's about Brexit

Jezyboy

Brexit saved me money on the fancy special edition alpecin fenix kit at the start of the tour.

pblakeney

elbowloh said:

kingstongraham said:

elbowloh said:

Stevo_666 said:

Good timing, the thread was going to drop off page 1 before too long

The stories keep coming.

They aren't Brexit related though. This is just an issue within the UK.

Brexit is all done and finished.

"Brexit" is in the article 7 times including the title. It mentions the government's own "SME Brexit Support Fund" which unsurprisingly is supposed to help SMEs cope with Brexit.

It's about Brexit

KG was being sarcastic.

elbowloh

pblakeney said:

elbowloh said:

kingstongraham said:

elbowloh said:

Stevo_666 said:

Good timing, the thread was going to drop off page 1 before too long

The stories keep coming.

They aren't Brexit related though. This is just an issue within the UK.

Brexit is all done and finished.

"Brexit" is in the article 7 times including the title. It mentions the government's own "SME Brexit Support Fund" which unsurprisingly is supposed to help SMEs cope with Brexit.

It's about Brexit

KG was being sarcastic.

Apologies to KG then.