BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
-
I think what none of us had appreciated was that the Brexit leadership is driven by hatred of the EU not our membership of it.rick_chasey said:Have to say, the conclusion of the trade deal doesn't seem to have taken the heat out of relations between the UK and the EU.
It's certainly deteriorated since. This is not good for anyone apart from perhaps populists.
With hindsight the clues were always there in the musings of our designated Telegraph reader.0 -
Do you think there is some hypocrisy to be pointed out?rick_chasey said:Bally's like the forum's guido fawkes.
Is there to point out hypocrisy however trivial, but makes sure he never expresses his own views as to ensure he doesn't get snared himself."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
To be fair, it always seemed to be the case that it was the Leavers who expected the EU to be perfect and wanted out because it wasn't. Remainers accepted the flaws on the basis that the benefits outweighed them. That they are acting poorly now is just an inevitability of the situation we have put them in. How many divorces avoid acrimony on both sides for long when one side tries to be reasonably but the other just acts like a total asre all the time?john80 said:
Do you think you beloved EU has been driving the animosity. Seems that way from my view of things. Given they are one half of the relationship any tips for what they could do better.rick_chasey said:Have to say, the conclusion of the trade deal doesn't seem to have taken the heat out of relations between the UK and the EU.
It's certainly deteriorated since. This is not good for anyone apart from perhaps populists.
Meanwhile more cake-ism. Now we want a two year transition on food, parcels etc because of the NI chaos. Sorry, I thought Brexit meant Brexit and we were quite clear that we wanted no extensions when we were repeatedly offered them? If we did get offered a two year transition we would do nothing with it (plenty of evidence of past lack of action there) so what's the point? The only sensible solution seems to be for us to go back into the Customs Union for two years and keep extending indefinitely til we get a Government that is capable of doing stuff competently. So a long wait there then.
Faster than a tent.......1 -
Everyone's a hypocrite if you look hard enough.Stevo_666 said:
Do you think there is some hypocrisy to be pointed out?rick_chasey said:Bally's like the forum's guido fawkes.
Is there to point out hypocrisy however trivial, but makes sure he never expresses his own views as to ensure he doesn't get snared himself.0 -
Not caring about it is a modern political super power.rick_chasey said:
Everyone's a hypocrite if you look hard enough.Stevo_666 said:
Do you think there is some hypocrisy to be pointed out?rick_chasey said:Bally's like the forum's guido fawkes.
Is there to point out hypocrisy however trivial, but makes sure he never expresses his own views as to ensure he doesn't get snared himself.0 -
There are different levels, right?kingstongraham said:
Not caring about it is a modern political super power.rick_chasey said:
Everyone's a hypocrite if you look hard enough.Stevo_666 said:
Do you think there is some hypocrisy to be pointed out?rick_chasey said:Bally's like the forum's guido fawkes.
Is there to point out hypocrisy however trivial, but makes sure he never expresses his own views as to ensure he doesn't get snared himself.
I don't think anyone is 100% consistent with their views.
To take a very trivial example, Stevo is very pro-shrinking the state, lowering taxes, all that jazz, but he's very comfortable using "eat out to help out".
I am generally in favour of improved labour laws and job security yet I think the au pair system worked well.0 -
I just expected more of a country that is ‘leader of the free world’. Trumpet came storming out of the gates with his (in my view) racist agenda - the travel ban was just about the first policy he enacted. It seemed so clear which direction he was heading.Stevo_666 said:
Or maybe saying that you won't holiday in (say) Turkey because Erdoğan is an authoritarian git doesn't score quite as many right on brownie points?Pross said:Presumably the US is somewhere PB and Mrs PB would otherwise be inclined to visit whereas the likes of North Korea, Myanmar, Belarus or even Russia / China aren't likely holiday destinations?
I chose not to use my discretionary holiday spending in the US because of this.
I’m as guilty of hypocrisy as the next person. Still went to visit family in India (although that’s a little less discretionary) and I think Modi employs similar tactics in stoking racial division.
Trying to take a principled stand against racism is not trying to score ‘right on brownie points’ - that’s a really cynical view!0 -
Hang on, you're not allowed to have a balanced perspective in this debate. You are either critical of the UK or critical of the EU, no fence sitting only one is bad and the other good.rick_chasey said:
I think they are as bad as each other.john80 said:
Do you think you beloved EU has been driving the animosity. Seems that way from my view of things. Given they are one half of the relationship any tips for what they could do better.rick_chasey said:Have to say, the conclusion of the trade deal doesn't seem to have taken the heat out of relations between the UK and the EU.
It's certainly deteriorated since. This is not good for anyone apart from perhaps populists.0 -
😂Stevo_666 said:
Or maybe saying that you won't holiday in (say) Turkey because Erdoğan is an authoritarian git doesn't score quite as many right on brownie points?Pross said:Presumably the US is somewhere PB and Mrs PB would otherwise be inclined to visit whereas the likes of North Korea, Myanmar, Belarus or even Russia / China aren't likely holiday destinations?
I should have put money on you posting this. 🙂1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Plus we have a government whose only skill is populism, they are devoid any of other ability. I think my Remain credentials are pretty well established but there must be some benefits that could be gained from all this, even if they remain far less beneficial than staying in the EU.rolf_f said:VG Post 👍
However, the Johnson Government is so lacking in talent that it can't even spot them, let alone take advantage of them. About the most they ve done is convene a bunch of (no doubt sympathetic) business leaders to try and find them. Well...we know what business thinks! They want to stay in the EU! The only response the government have to the entirely foreseeable problems resulting from what they argued for, agreed and implemented, is to scurry back to the EU and complain in the right wing press about how they re being mean...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
I hope I have been quite consistent on the fact that the EU isn't very cuddly if you're not part of the union.Pross said:
Hang on, you're not allowed to have a balanced perspective in this debate. You are either critical of the UK or critical of the EU, no fence sitting only one is bad and the other good.rick_chasey said:
I think they are as bad as each other.john80 said:
Do you think you beloved EU has been driving the animosity. Seems that way from my view of things. Given they are one half of the relationship any tips for what they could do better.rick_chasey said:Have to say, the conclusion of the trade deal doesn't seem to have taken the heat out of relations between the UK and the EU.
It's certainly deteriorated since. This is not good for anyone apart from perhaps populists.0 -
I think that constantly looking for hypocrisy is not a great way of "winning" an argument.rick_chasey said:
There are different levels, right?kingstongraham said:
Not caring about it is a modern political super power.rick_chasey said:
Everyone's a hypocrite if you look hard enough.Stevo_666 said:
Do you think there is some hypocrisy to be pointed out?rick_chasey said:Bally's like the forum's guido fawkes.
Is there to point out hypocrisy however trivial, but makes sure he never expresses his own views as to ensure he doesn't get snared himself.
I don't think anyone is 100% consistent with their views.
To take a very trivial example, Stevo is very pro-shrinking the state, lowering taxes, all that jazz, but he's very comfortable using "eat out to help out".
I am generally in favour of improved labour laws and job security yet I think the au pair system worked well.
Otoh it gives an opportunity to develop your own views, and try to make them more consistent, or at least allow for a degree of nuance.
It's possible for a big state to be undesirable, but for there to be times when a helping hand can be useful.
It's possible that "working" holidays can have conditions that may appear to be exploitative, but where both parties are very satisfied.
It's Intresting (to me at least) to see where the edge falls, but I don't think you find that out if all you take is potshots.
3 -
The Govt being bereft of talent is a consequence of Brexit.ddraver said:
Plus we have a government whose only skill is populism, they are devoid any of other ability. I think my Remain credentials are pretty well established but there must be some benefits that could be gained from all this, even if they remain far less beneficial than staying in the EU.rolf_f said:VG Post 👍
However, the Johnson Government is so lacking in talent that it can't even spot them, let alone take advantage of them. About the most they ve done is convene a bunch of (no doubt sympathetic) business leaders to try and find them. Well...we know what business thinks! They want to stay in the EU! The only response the government have to the entirely foreseeable problems resulting from what they argued for, agreed and implemented, is to scurry back to the EU and complain in the right wing press about how they re being mean...
The fact that they asked business for suggestions after the FTA had been signed tells you all you need to know.
If there were any economic benefits to Brexit do you not think that the likes of Gove, Farage or JRM would have mentioned them at some point.
Most people consider climate change to be a black and white issue but you would find endless qualified experts to question it. When Gove famouly disparaged experts it was because he could not find a single one to say Brexit was a good idea.
Think about it in other areas. Corbyn floats a ludicrous idea like a universal income payment and he will b supported by half a dozen think tanks saying it is a good idea.
Whatever story the BBC reports on they have to give the counter argument. Brexiteers said they were biased but the truth of the matter is that there is no counter argument.
Personally I hated the CAP and would have taken the opportunity to scrap all faming subsidies and barriers to import. This would have stopped the poor subsidising teh ich and would have made food cheaper which would have disproportionately benefited the poor. I accept that I am in a tiny minority of people who think thi is a good idea.0 -
But, but.....remoaners think the EU are faultless, I've read it on here.rick_chasey said:
I hope I have been quite consistent on the fact that the EU isn't very cuddly if you're not part of the union.Pross said:
Hang on, you're not allowed to have a balanced perspective in this debate. You are either critical of the UK or critical of the EU, no fence sitting only one is bad and the other good.rick_chasey said:
I think they are as bad as each other.john80 said:
Do you think you beloved EU has been driving the animosity. Seems that way from my view of things. Given they are one half of the relationship any tips for what they could do better.rick_chasey said:Have to say, the conclusion of the trade deal doesn't seem to have taken the heat out of relations between the UK and the EU.
It's certainly deteriorated since. This is not good for anyone apart from perhaps populists.
To be honest, I think it makes a mockery of that study that was posted on here a few days ago that suggested leave voters understood remain voters motivations more. There seems to have been an assumption throughout that, if you voted remain, you were somehow incapable of seeing the negatives of the EU whereas I suspect that in most cases (certainly my own) we were well aware of the problems but felt that leaving, especially without any sort of plan other than 'getting out', would be worse. For me, the EU was expanding out of what it should be doing as a trading block and the UK should have just stayed in and fought to keep it on track.0 -
Well it was a bit of a tap inrjsterry said:
😂Stevo_666 said:
Or maybe saying that you won't holiday in (say) Turkey because Erdoğan is an authoritarian git doesn't score quite as many right on brownie points?Pross said:Presumably the US is somewhere PB and Mrs PB would otherwise be inclined to visit whereas the likes of North Korea, Myanmar, Belarus or even Russia / China aren't likely holiday destinations?
I should have put money on you posting this. 🙂
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Ooof, that's a good line....surrey_commuter said:
Most people consider climate change to be a black and white issue but you would find endless qualified experts to question it. When Gove famouly disparaged experts it was because he could not find a single one to say Brexit was a good idea.
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
As I've said before, if the EU had kept to the brief of being a trading bloc I'm sure we would still be in.Pross said:For me, the EU was expanding out of what it should be doing as a trading block and the UK should have just stayed in and fought to keep it on track.
Sadly the EU has no reverse gear, so the absolute best you could do would be to keeps things 'as is' for as long as possible. All the EU has to do is wait until more compliant national governments are elected to push through the next round of integration."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Ah yes Virtue signalling is best done when you get mega like minded feedback. Be one of the right onsStevo_666 said:
Or maybe saying that you won't holiday in (say) Turkey because Erdoğan is an authoritarian git doesn't score quite as many right on brownie points?Pross said:Presumably the US is somewhere PB and Mrs PB would otherwise be inclined to visit whereas the likes of North Korea, Myanmar, Belarus or even Russia / China aren't likely holiday destinations?
0 -
Not the US because trump is in your view a racistpinkbikini said:
I just expected more of a country that is ‘leader of the free world’. Trumpet came storming out of the gates with his (in my view) racist agenda - the travel ban was just about the first policy he enacted. It seemed so clear which direction he was heading.Stevo_666 said:
Or maybe saying that you won't holiday in (say) Turkey because Erdoğan is an authoritarian git doesn't score quite as many right on brownie points?Pross said:Presumably the US is somewhere PB and Mrs PB would otherwise be inclined to visit whereas the likes of North Korea, Myanmar, Belarus or even Russia / China aren't likely holiday destinations?
I chose not to use my discretionary holiday spending in the US because of this.
I’m as guilty of hypocrisy as the next person. Still went to visit family in India (although that’s a little less discretionary) and I think Modi employs similar tactics in stoking racial division.
Trying to take a principled stand against racism is not trying to score ‘right on brownie points’ - that’s a really cynical view!
India ok, yet the One World Values Survey reported that 43.5% of Indians responded that they would prefer not to have neighbours of a different race. AND as you say Modi is in a similar vein as trump.
I guess your principles are your principles and yours to apply as you see fit0 -
It is difficult to think of another subject in macroeconomics that has such universal agreement, it just does not happen.ddraver said:
Ooof, that's a good line....surrey_commuter said:
Most people consider climate change to be a black and white issue but you would find endless qualified experts to question it. When Gove famouly disparaged experts it was because he could not find a single one to say Brexit was a good idea.
In amongst all the lies that the Leave camapign told they never once said it would be an economic success and yet many Leave supporters argue that it will, despite not being able to offer a single example.
The economy is widely accepted to be 2.5-3% smaller than it would have been without the referndum and the FTSE is at historic low levels against other indices because the money all thinks the UK will continue to underperform relatively for the forseeable future.
and yet people who do not know what GDP is will tell you that everything is fine and there has been no downside.0 -
Actually, I'm pretty sure that you'll find it a lot harder to find a sane qualified expert who doesn't believe in man made climate change than someone who has an at least superficially almost non batshit sounding idea as to why Brexit is a good thing......surrey_commuter said:.
Most people consider climate change to be a black and white issue but you would find endless qualified experts to question it. When Gove famouly disparaged experts it was because he could not find a single one to say Brexit was a good idea.
Faster than a tent.......1 -
Well what would you like to know?rick_chasey said:Bally's like the forum's guido fawkes.
Is there to point out hypocrisy however trivial, but makes sure he never expresses his own views as to ensure he doesn't get snared himself.
I seem to have expressed enough of my views on here in the past to spark you into a bout of name calling on quite a few occasions as I recall.0 -
second result on Google - Nasa reports that 97% of experts agree on man made climate change.rolf_f said:
Actually, I'm pretty sure that you'll find it a lot harder to find a sane qualified expert who doesn't believe in man made climate change than someone who has an at least superficially almost non batshit sounding idea as to why Brexit is a good thing......surrey_commuter said:.
Most people consider climate change to be a black and white issue but you would find endless qualified experts to question it. When Gove famouly disparaged experts it was because he could not find a single one to say Brexit was a good idea.
Gove would kill for that 3%0 -
Yep, if it were solely a trading bloc and hadn't got designs on being a state we would have been its biggest cheer leaders.Stevo_666 said:
As I've said before, if the EU had kept to the brief of being a trading bloc I'm sure we would still be in.Pross said:For me, the EU was expanding out of what it should be doing as a trading block and the UK should have just stayed in and fought to keep it on track.
Sadly the EU has no reverse gear, so the absolute best you could do would be to keeps things 'as is' for as long as possible. All the EU has to do is wait until more compliant national governments are elected to push through the next round of integration.3 -
He shoots, he scores!Stevo_666 said:
Well it was a bit of a tap inrjsterry said:
😂Stevo_666 said:
Or maybe saying that you won't holiday in (say) Turkey because Erdoğan is an authoritarian git doesn't score quite as many right on brownie points?Pross said:Presumably the US is somewhere PB and Mrs PB would otherwise be inclined to visit whereas the likes of North Korea, Myanmar, Belarus or even Russia / China aren't likely holiday destinations?
I should have put money on you posting this. 🙂0 -
This is such a weak argument as the UK made it clear it never wanted that and had a veto on that happening.ballysmate said:
Yep, if it were solely a trading bloc and hadn't got designs on being a state we would have been its biggest cheer leaders.Stevo_666 said:
As I've said before, if the EU had kept to the brief of being a trading bloc I'm sure we would still be in.Pross said:For me, the EU was expanding out of what it should be doing as a trading block and the UK should have just stayed in and fought to keep it on track.
Sadly the EU has no reverse gear, so the absolute best you could do would be to keeps things 'as is' for as long as possible. All the EU has to do is wait until more compliant national governments are elected to push through the next round of integration.0 -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-55996938
Fishermen are to rename two of their biggest exports in a bid to attract British consumers after post-Brexit difficulties selling to the EU.
Megrim sole is to be sold as Cornish sole, with spider crab being rebranded as Cornish King crab.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
Yum!- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0
