BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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Stevo_666 said:
May as well set out your predictions now so we know what we are judging. Also give a time scale.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
A bit late now Brian.briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:It is amazing how far we have come from the halcyon days of leaving on terms at least as good as we already have.
I think it is becoming apparent that the way to know what BoJo really thinks is to take note of his unguarded comments “fvck business” and telling the NI biz meeting that nothing will change.
It's almost as if the Cake-&-Eat-It plan was never realistic.
I think you might find that some of us were making the point some time ago. And I assume you're not going to complain should we observe when past predictions come to pass. Had the Leave camp been honest/realistic earlier, we might not have been in the current predicament.
Usual Stevo deflection... don't answer the question, make a demand of the questioner.0 -
I think you have misunderstood what I meant. It was a reference to the tone rather than the content. You have previously mentioned advantages but only in general terms. Maybe give some examples. I'm sure there are particular advantages but most things have a cost, as have the advantages of access to the SM. It's a question of whether the advantages are worth the cost.Stevo_666 said:
I've explained before the advantages of being able to set rules that are applicable to the UK rather than being some compromise effort to suit 20-odd countries with different circumstances and needs. That's not DM, its just common sense.rjsterry said:
DM? It's an observation that the tone of your posts has shifted noticeably - you used to sound more like a Telegraph reader 😉. I don't recall you previously being that bothered about sovereignty. And the healthy scepticism seems to be applied in one direction only.Stevo_666 said:
In your opinion. See my reply to Morstar above. It's a genuine concern and there is clearly more to it than some right-on cliche about the DM.rjsterry said:
So if you're not sure - I assume, as you still haven't said which option you think is best - why the Daily Express parody posts?Stevo_666 said:I see I have flushed out quite a few who are in the 'incapable of accepting a democratic outcome' category judging by the volume and tone of this morning's posts so far
No point wishing for something that won't happen folks - which is what a lot of you are still doing. The current position we find ourselves in given the EU's current position doesn't leave too many options for either side. Ultimately there may need to be a decision on whether it is more valuable long term to be free of EU regs and bureaucracy (which they want in place to keep us 'in line'), or a Canada style deal with major EU strings attached. I think you can make an case for either but it's not a no brainer. Although if the EU are going to be difficult then our hand may be forced.
Is that OK, or are you still holding on to the pitchforks and burning torches?
One last time on the Canada thing: CETA is not zero tariff/zero quota, which is what we (Johnson) previously said we were after. That is definitely a 'closer' relationship than CETA, so the principle of closer alignment is not unreasonable. Its debatable whether the EU's starting position is over-egging that, but I'm sure that'll come out in the wash. The idea that the UK are innocent hard-done-by victims is going too far the other way for me.
Also why do you think the EU is so insistent on this 'level playing field'. Could it be because they are worried that their playing field isn't very good compared to what ours could become? In which case, it is a tacit admission that of the benefits of being able to set your own rules.
I think I've already answered the second question more than once. We are asking for more than a basic FTA - the best bits of everyone else's combined. We're just pretending that it is the same as CETA.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
What I see here and on Twitter nowadays from Brexit supporters is this and a smugness that they "won". Promises of sunlit uplands are apparently not in fashion any longer and instead it's whining that the EU isn't playing fair and giving us what we want...morstar said:
Many months ago I praised the fact you were the only one posting consistent, coherent and positive arguments for Brexit despite your remain vote.Stevo_666 said:I see I have flushed out quite a few who are in the 'incapable of accepting a democratic outcome' category judging by the volume and tone of this morning's posts so far
No point wishing for something that won't happen folks - which is what a lot of you are still doing. The current position we find ourselves in given the EU's current position doesn't leave too many options for either side. Ultimately there may need to be a decision on whether it is more valuable long term to be free of EU regs and bureaucracy (which they want in place to keep us 'in line'), or a Canada style deal with major EU strings attached. I think you can make an case for either but it's not a no brainer. Although if the EU are going to be difficult then our hand may be forced.
Is that OK, or are you still holding on to the pitchforks and burning torches?
These days you’re just spouting b@llox.0 -
As there was a Labour government when Stevo joined BR, you could go back and check.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
May as well set out your predictions now so we know what we are judging. Also give a time scale.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
A bit late now Brian.briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:It is amazing how far we have come from the halcyon days of leaving on terms at least as good as we already have.
I think it is becoming apparent that the way to know what BoJo really thinks is to take note of his unguarded comments “fvck business” and telling the NI biz meeting that nothing will change.
It's almost as if the Cake-&-Eat-It plan was never realistic.
I think you might find that some of us were making the point some time ago. And I assume you're not going to complain should we observe when past predictions come to pass. Had the Leave camp been honest/realistic earlier, we might not have been in the current predicament.
Usual Stevo deflection... don't answer the question, make a demand of the questioner.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I would be more focussed on taking action - I had contingency plans ready. No way would I be 'crying over spilt milk' like you are on here.briantrumpet said:
Perhaps you'll answer my question about whether you'd complain if a Labour Government got in...Stevo_666 said:
When what you believe in is pretty much an impossible scenario for the foreseeable future, maybe it's time to change tack? Helps avoid disappointment and bitterness, which I think is good advice for you right now.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I thought I'd get a reaction from youbriantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:I see I have flushed out quite a few who are in the 'incapable of accepting a democratic outcome' category judging by the volume and tone of this morning's posts so far
RU OK, hun?
Well, you've gone all Coopster on us (viz "flushed out quite a few"). And I noticed you didn't answer my question about whether you'd think that arguing against a future elected Labour Government would be 'sad & bitter' and not 'accepting the democratic outcome'. I'd say it was both your right and your duty, in a democracy, to keep arguing for what you believe in."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo_666 said:
Also why do you think the EU is so insistent on this 'level playing field'. Could it be because they are worried that their playing field isn't very good compared to what ours could become? In which case, it is a tacit admission that of the benefits of being able to set your own rules.
Sorry, what?
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
I think I have just seen the problem. Most of us on here see it as a discussion forum, which when it comes to Brexit means debating the pros and cons of possible outcomes.Stevo_666 said:
I would be more focussed on taking action - I had contingency plans ready. No way would I be 'crying over spilt milk' like you are on here.briantrumpet said:
Perhaps you'll answer my question about whether you'd complain if a Labour Government got in...Stevo_666 said:
When what you believe in is pretty much an impossible scenario for the foreseeable future, maybe it's time to change tack? Helps avoid disappointment and bitterness, which I think is good advice for you right now.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I thought I'd get a reaction from youbriantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:I see I have flushed out quite a few who are in the 'incapable of accepting a democratic outcome' category judging by the volume and tone of this morning's posts so far
RU OK, hun?
Well, you've gone all Coopster on us (viz "flushed out quite a few"). And I noticed you didn't answer my question about whether you'd think that arguing against a future elected Labour Government would be 'sad & bitter' and not 'accepting the democratic outcome'. I'd say it was both your right and your duty, in a democracy, to keep arguing for what you believe in.
I am not being judgemental in saying that the world is very black and white for SteveO and so there is no room for debate or discussion.0 -
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Do you really not get it? I'll make it a bit simpler for you. EU red tape is pretty extensive and restrictive and not necessarily the most appropriate because it is by its very nature a compromise - as mentioned in my first paragraph above.tailwindhome said:Stevo_666 said:Also why do you think the EU is so insistent on this 'level playing field'. Could it be because they are worried that their playing field isn't very good compared to what ours could become? In which case, it is a tacit admission that of the benefits of being able to set your own rules.
Sorry, what?
We can do better for the UK in many cases by setting our own rules."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Why is it just cars? Germany exports a whole range of goods to the UK. And why just Germany? The annual EU trade surplus in goods with the UK is over €100bn IIRC.rick_chasey said:
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Be my guest.rjsterry said:
As there was a Labour government when Stevo joined BR, you could go back and check.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
May as well set out your predictions now so we know what we are judging. Also give a time scale.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
A bit late now Brian.briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:It is amazing how far we have come from the halcyon days of leaving on terms at least as good as we already have.
I think it is becoming apparent that the way to know what BoJo really thinks is to take note of his unguarded comments “fvck business” and telling the NI biz meeting that nothing will change.
It's almost as if the Cake-&-Eat-It plan was never realistic.
I think you might find that some of us were making the point some time ago. And I assume you're not going to complain should we observe when past predictions come to pass. Had the Leave camp been honest/realistic earlier, we might not have been in the current predicament.
Usual Stevo deflection... don't answer the question, make a demand of the questioner."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Arguing a clear case does not always mean a black and white world view.surrey_commuter said:
I think I have just seen the problem. Most of us on here see it as a discussion forum, which when it comes to Brexit means debating the pros and cons of possible outcomes.Stevo_666 said:
I would be more focussed on taking action - I had contingency plans ready. No way would I be 'crying over spilt milk' like you are on here.briantrumpet said:
Perhaps you'll answer my question about whether you'd complain if a Labour Government got in...Stevo_666 said:
When what you believe in is pretty much an impossible scenario for the foreseeable future, maybe it's time to change tack? Helps avoid disappointment and bitterness, which I think is good advice for you right now.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
I thought I'd get a reaction from youbriantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:I see I have flushed out quite a few who are in the 'incapable of accepting a democratic outcome' category judging by the volume and tone of this morning's posts so far
RU OK, hun?
Well, you've gone all Coopster on us (viz "flushed out quite a few"). And I noticed you didn't answer my question about whether you'd think that arguing against a future elected Labour Government would be 'sad & bitter' and not 'accepting the democratic outcome'. I'd say it was both your right and your duty, in a democracy, to keep arguing for what you believe in.
I am not being judgemental in saying that the world is very black and white for SteveO and so there is no room for debate or discussion.
Seems I have hit the spot with some if these arguments given the tone of quite a few of the replies in the last couple of days."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
"they're worried their playing field isnt very good compared to what ours could become"Stevo_666 said:
Do you really not get it? I'll make it a bit simpler for you. EU red tape is pretty extensive and restrictive and not necessarily the most appropriate because it is by its very nature a compromise - as mentioned in my first paragraph above.tailwindhome said:Stevo_666 said:Also why do you think the EU is so insistent on this 'level playing field'. Could it be because they are worried that their playing field isn't very good compared to what ours could become? In which case, it is a tacit admission that of the benefits of being able to set your own rules.
Sorry, what?
We can do better for the UK in many cases by setting our own rules.
Eh?“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
More generalism. Can we have a concrete example of such a regulation that we would realistically change and some kind of qualitative or quantitive prediction (😬) of the net benefit? The VAT rules get a lot of press (Tampon Tax) but I think someone calculated that the net benefit was £40/woman over an entire lifetime. Surely there is something else.Stevo_666 said:
Do you really not get it? I'll make it a bit simpler for you. EU red tape is pretty extensive and restrictive and not necessarily the most appropriate because it is by its very nature a compromise - as mentioned in my first paragraph above.tailwindhome said:Stevo_666 said:Also why do you think the EU is so insistent on this 'level playing field'. Could it be because they are worried that their playing field isn't very good compared to what ours could become? In which case, it is a tacit admission that of the benefits of being able to set your own rules.
Sorry, what?
We can do better for the UK in many cases by setting our own rules.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Why d’ya think?Stevo_666 said:
Why is it just cars? Germany exports a whole range of goods to the UK. And why just Germany? The annual EU trade surplus in goods with the UK is over €100bn IIRC.rick_chasey said:0 -
I've tried to follow this for some time. Would someone care to, briefly if possible, give me the pros and cons without going into some political or emotional rant?0
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“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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What is that supposed to achieve?tailwindhome said:0 -
Leaving is essentially an emotional decision driven by a desire to be ruled by Westminster (sovereignty) or a feeling that there lot will improve giving the Govt a kick in the pants.dennisn said:I've tried to follow this for some time. Would someone care to, briefly if possible, give me the pros and cons without going into some political or emotional rant?
Remain is purely about economics as nobody (Boris, Farage etc) thinks we will be better off leaving.
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You are or live in America if I am correct?dennisn said:I've tried to follow this for some time. Would someone care to, briefly if possible, give me the pros and cons without going into some political or emotional rant?
Based on the above would you and your fellow Americans allow the EU as a group to negotiate your trade deals, tell the US what sales taxes to charge, to have a European Court higher than your Supreme Court, to allow uncontrolled migration between the EU and US?
In other words for the US to become ever more subordinate to EU politics.
And for the above and many more things you have to pay way above the administration costs because you are a richer country? I'm going to guess but the amount the US pay would be over $100bn a year.
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You know what the EU is right?dennisn said:I've tried to follow this for some time. Would someone care to, briefly if possible, give me the pros and cons without going into some political or emotional rant?
So the advantages of membership are broadly (from a UK perspective)
member of the biggest single market in the world with all the associated benefits of frictionless trade.
All the advantages of pooled economic and political power; acting as one economic unit / political union offers more leverage internationally. Relevant for striking beneficial trade deals etc. High priority target for other nations to strike deals due to size. UK is also a leading voice in this.
If you’re a member of the eu you’re not gonna be waging war with other members
Disadvantages
Some decisions (mainly but not exclusively relating to single market membership eg regulations on products, services, working rights etc) are made at a EU level. This can make it seem like foreigners have an influence on domestic laws. This includes trade deals which are conducted on an EU level not a national level.
The political union does not match the economic union and this means the EU does not always work as effectively as it should as a result - nor is the political union desirable to a lot of people for reasons above
The EU budget (c. 1-1.5% of GDP) is redistributive so the UK puts in more net than it receives. It also has some anachronisms around farm protectionism.
The free market includes free movement of labour; therefore nations cannot prevent EU citizens migrating to the UK (a few sensible exceptions but they are just that). If you don’t like high levels of immigration that’s not great, especially in the context of non-EU citizens being granted citizenship on grounds the UK government might not.
Other things to note: it should be self evident that leaving the EU creates challenges on the borders of Northern Ireland and Gibraltar.1 -
Because it suits your argument, rather than looking at the bigger picture?rick_chasey said:
Why d’ya think?Stevo_666 said:
Why is it just cars? Germany exports a whole range of goods to the UK. And why just Germany? The annual EU trade surplus in goods with the UK is over €100bn IIRC.rick_chasey said:"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Either you're pretending to be thick, or...tailwindhome said:
"they're worried their playing field isnt very good compared to what ours could become"Stevo_666 said:
Do you really not get it? I'll make it a bit simpler for you. EU red tape is pretty extensive and restrictive and not necessarily the most appropriate because it is by its very nature a compromise - as mentioned in my first paragraph above.tailwindhome said:Stevo_666 said:Also why do you think the EU is so insistent on this 'level playing field'. Could it be because they are worried that their playing field isn't very good compared to what ours could become? In which case, it is a tacit admission that of the benefits of being able to set your own rules.
Sorry, what?
We can do better for the UK in many cases by setting our own rules.
Eh?
CBA to explain it again."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I didn't mention tampon tax. It's a pretty minor example, but in principle part of our new found freedom to act.rjsterry said:
More generalism. Can we have a concrete example of such a regulation that we would realistically change and some kind of qualitative or quantitive prediction (😬) of the net benefit? The VAT rules get a lot of press (Tampon Tax) but I think someone calculated that the net benefit was £40/woman over an entire lifetime. Surely there is something else.Stevo_666 said:
Do you really not get it? I'll make it a bit simpler for you. EU red tape is pretty extensive and restrictive and not necessarily the most appropriate because it is by its very nature a compromise - as mentioned in my first paragraph above.tailwindhome said:Stevo_666 said:Also why do you think the EU is so insistent on this 'level playing field'. Could it be because they are worried that their playing field isn't very good compared to what ours could become? In which case, it is a tacit admission that of the benefits of being able to set your own rules.
Sorry, what?
We can do better for the UK in many cases by setting our own rules.
We can certainly improve on some of the rather cumbersome EU rules in areas such as:
Digital economy
https://telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/02/17/europes-digital-single-market-doomed-failure/
Biotech
https://the-scientist.com/news-analysis/slow-progress-for-eu-biotech-50123
Financial services
https://ftadviser.com/opinion/2019/01/11/mifid-ii-goes-too-far-and-is-too-costly-to-implement/
Now you give me some concrete examples of why EU rules are so much better."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
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It's something that could be improved on.rick_chasey said:Hang on they’re gonna roll mifid2 back?!??
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
You do know how the United States of America works, right?coopster_the_1st said:
You are or live in America if I am correct?dennisn said:I've tried to follow this for some time. Would someone care to, briefly if possible, give me the pros and cons without going into some political or emotional rant?
Based on the above would you and your fellow Americans allow the EU as a group to negotiate your trade deals, tell the US what sales taxes to charge, to have a European Court higher than your Supreme Court, to allow uncontrolled migration between the EU and US?
In other words for the US to become ever more subordinate to EU politics.
And for the above and many more things you have to pay way above the administration costs because you are a richer country? I'm going to guess but the amount the US pay would be over $100bn a year.
I'll give you a clue. They are individual States combining under a federal agreement.
Does that sound familiar? Yeah, I know, engaging with the Coopster...The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
And the pope’s catholic. Is mifid2 in the sights of Brexiters?Stevo_666 said:
It's something that could be improved on.rick_chasey said:Hang on they’re gonna roll mifid2 back?!??
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@Rick, RES and TWH: above is the nub of my original point. Do you disagree with that, and if so, why?Stevo_666 said:
I've explained before the advantages of being able to set rules that are applicable to the UK rather than being some compromise effort to suit 20-odd countries with different circumstances and needs."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0
