BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
-
Surrey Commuter wrote:john80 wrote:bompington wrote:
Where to start with this? :?john80 wrote:When you have an EU that wants to put the UK on the same trade footing as some far flung nation with zero compliance you may draw that conclusion that the EU are so desperate to remain that they will risk no deal.
First, the EU does indeed want the UK to be on the same trade footing as every other member state. Otherwise known as "being in the EU".
Second, the impression I get is that it is the Leave fanatics in the UK who have steadily followed the inevitability of their twisted logic to the point where they are all going flat out for No Deal. Not the EU.
Third - "I'll go outside and top myself if I don't get to pick all the cherries from the cake, then eat the cake, then still have the cake - then it'll all be the your fault and you'll all be sorry when I'm dead"
You have agreed with me on your first point. On the second it is this stand off approach by the EU putting the responsibility solely on a principle trading partner to come up with a solution and then saying it does not meet there requirements as it is not consistent with being a member. The continued assertion by remain advocates that it is all the UK's problem to resolve is pretty naive. The third point you raise is not really very relevant. If you go and kill yourself then I would be willing to wager a bet that no one outside your immediate friends and family would give much of a toss. Looking to the future not many people if any will be financially affected by your departing. The UK leaving on no deal will have a long term financial implications for the UK and remaining EU nations on the other hand which are not best served by a no deal Brexit.
Do people think that if no deal happens then we will look back and go yes Barnier and Juncker you negotiated so well that the May deal could not pass and all other proposals were non starters with fondness. I am not so sure EU citizens will see this for anything other than an own goal.
See it as a choice rather than a negotiation. Depending upon the degree of compliance with EU rules that we are willing to accept we have the following options for our future trade relationship.
Norway
Turkey
Canada
WTO
Our esteemed leaders are arguing between Canada and WTO
And May's deal failed to win support because Parliament is split between supporters of each of those options plus Remain, rather than because the deal was objectively bad. Indeed it is so far the only worked through solution to leaving the SM & CU, but retaining an open Irish border.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Rolf F wrote:john80 wrote:bompington wrote:
Where to start with this? :?john80 wrote:When you have an EU that wants to put the UK on the same trade footing as some far flung nation with zero compliance you may draw that conclusion that the EU are so desperate to remain that they will risk no deal.
First, the EU does indeed want the UK to be on the same trade footing as every other member state. Otherwise known as "being in the EU".
Second, the impression I get is that it is the Leave fanatics in the UK who have steadily followed the inevitability of their twisted logic to the point where they are all going flat out for No Deal. Not the EU.
Third - "I'll go outside and top myself if I don't get to pick all the cherries from the cake, then eat the cake, then still have the cake - then it'll all be the your fault and you'll all be sorry when I'm dead"
You have agreed with me on your first point. On the second it is this stand off approach by the EU putting the responsibility solely on a principle trading partner to come up with a solution and then saying it does not meet there requirements as it is not consistent with being a member. The continued assertion by remain advocates that it is all the UK's problem to resolve is pretty naive. The third point you raise is not really very relevant. If you go and kill yourself then I would be willing to wager a bet that no one outside your immediate friends and family would give much of a toss. Looking to the future not many people if any will be financially affected by your departing. The UK leaving on no deal will have a long term financial implications for the UK and remaining EU nations on the other hand which are not best served by a no deal Brexit.
Do people think that if no deal happens then we will look back and go yes Barnier and Juncker you negotiated so well that the May deal could not pass and all other proposals were non starters with fondness. I am not so sure EU citizens will see this for anything other than an own goal.
I think that EU citizens will have seen Barnier and Juncker trying to negotiate with a country that repeatedly shot itself in the foot at every stage of the process by drawing entirely un-necessary red lines that nobody voted for and expecting that the EU would be OK about making fundamental changes to its laws to accommodate whatever it was we wanted even though we didn't know what we wanted.
Only one deal has been agreed with the EU and it would probably have gone through had it not been for one of Mays numerous own goals (the last, unnecessary election). We've brought this entirely on ourselves.
This.
If she had not fought that election and lessened her majority, she probably would have gotten the deal through.0 -
I'm sure SC can expand on his comment, I'm thinking more about the approach seen where there are endless references and links to all the likely and claimed downsides but almost no attempt to think how these could be dealt with - so I (and a few others) often have to step in to restore a spot of practical reality to the whinge festRolf F wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
That's been a running theme for a large part of this thread.Surrey Commuter wrote:Some people see problems where others see solutions
I think that the Remainers tendency to see problems is down to the utter failure of any brexiter ever to provide any solution (other than complete non starters drawn up on the back of a fag packet as per Boris's latest failure).
When nobody agrees about any solution how can that not be a problem?
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo 666 wrote:
I'm sure SC can expand on his comment, I'm thinking more about the approach seen where there are endless references and links to all the likely and claimed downsides but almost no attempt to think how these could be dealt with - so I (and a few others) often have to step in to restore a spot of practical reality to the whinge festRolf F wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
That's been a running theme for a large part of this thread.Surrey Commuter wrote:Some people see problems where others see solutions
I think that the Remainers tendency to see problems is down to the utter failure of any brexiter ever to provide any solution (other than complete non starters drawn up on the back of a fag packet as per Boris's latest failure).
When nobody agrees about any solution how can that not be a problem?
Don't expect it end any time soon. I'm not prepared to get into any sensible discussions on "how do we solve all the problems Brexit has caused" for a good few years yet. I'm only just getting warmed up blaming the Beleavers for everything including the weather and it's going to take at least five years for that to slow down.You can fool some of the people all of the time. Concentrate on those people.0 -
Surrey Commuter wrote:john80 wrote:Rolf F wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
That's been a running theme for a large part of this thread.Surrey Commuter wrote:Some people see problems where others see solutions
I think that the Remainers tendency to see problems is down to the utter failure of any brexiter ever to provide any solution (other than complete non starters drawn up on the back of a fag packet as per Boris's latest failure).
When nobody agrees about any solution how can that not be a problem?
When you have an EU that wants to put the UK on the same trade footing as some far flung nation with zero compliance you may draw that conclusion that the EU are so desperate to remain that they will risk no deal.
Your non-understanding of international trade rules make me want to cry. If there is a second referendum you should hand your polling card back, explaining that you are not qualified to answer the question.
But probably no less qualified than most others and possibly more qualified than those who think they have the answers. it's democracy innit.0 -
I don't.Longshot wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
I'm sure SC can expand on his comment, I'm thinking more about the approach seen where there are endless references and links to all the likely and claimed downsides but almost no attempt to think how these could be dealt with - so I (and a few others) often have to step in to restore a spot of practical reality to the whinge festRolf F wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
That's been a running theme for a large part of this thread.Surrey Commuter wrote:Some people see problems where others see solutions
I think that the Remainers tendency to see problems is down to the utter failure of any brexiter ever to provide any solution (other than complete non starters drawn up on the back of a fag packet as per Boris's latest failure).
When nobody agrees about any solution how can that not be a problem?
Don't expect it end any time soon. I'm not prepared to get into any sensible discussions on "how do we solve all the problems Brexit has caused" for a good few years yet. I'm only just getting warmed up blaming the Beleavers for everything including the weather and it's going to take at least five years for that to slow down.
Both the issue of Brexit and the whinge fest in Cake Stop about Brexit are set to run for a long time..."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo 666 wrote:
I'm sure SC can expand on his comment, I'm thinking more about the approach seen where there are endless references and links to all the likely and claimed downsides but almost no attempt to think how these could be dealt with - so I (and a few others) often have to step in to restore a spot of practical reality to the whinge festRolf F wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
That's been a running theme for a large part of this thread.Surrey Commuter wrote:Some people see problems where others see solutions
I think that the Remainers tendency to see problems is down to the utter failure of any brexiter ever to provide any solution (other than complete non starters drawn up on the back of a fag packet as per Boris's latest failure).
When nobody agrees about any solution how can that not be a problem?
Exactly. Ireland saying it would be against the law for guide dogs to cross the border we need a deal scaremongering etc etc. but in reality the standards either side of the border are identical today and on the day we leave, it's not beyond the ability of man to either change repeal or make new laws to enable this and 100,000 other emotional downsides.
and they will.0 -
That one's easy - the dog's owner could just say they couldn't see where they were.Alejandrosdog wrote:Ireland saying it would be against the law for guide dogs to cross the border we need a deal scaremongering etc etc.
There's our starter for ten - let's create a bit of positive vibe in Cake Stop for a change "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo 666 wrote:
That one's easy - the dog's owner could just say they couldn't see where they were.Alejandrosdog wrote:Ireland saying it would be against the law for guide dogs to cross the border we need a deal scaremongering etc etc.
There's our starter for ten - let's create a bit of positive vibe in Cake Stop for a change
I should have seen that one coming 0 -
Alejandrosdog wrote:Exactly. Ireland saying it would be against the law for guide dogs to cross the border we need a deal scaremongering etc etc. but in reality the standards either side of the border are identical today and on the day we leave, it's not beyond the ability of man to either change repeal or make new laws to enable this and 100,000 other emotional downsides.
and they will.
The source for this story was DAEFRA guidance notes
DAEFRA being the Dept for Agriculture, Environment, Farming and Rural Affairs in Northern Ireland
That's the UK bit.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Stevo 666 wrote:
That one's easy - the dog's owner could just say they couldn't see where they were.Alejandrosdog wrote:Ireland saying it would be against the law for guide dogs to cross the border we need a deal scaremongering etc etc.
There's our starter for ten - let's create a bit of positive vibe in Cake Stop for a change
Good point. And better than that, rather than putting the guide dog owner in a potentially embarrassing situation, why not have some sort of a fence and barrier kind of arrangement so that the guide dog owner doesn't get caught out when near the border?Faster than a tent.......0 -
TailWindHome wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:Exactly. Ireland saying it would be against the law for guide dogs to cross the border we need a deal scaremongering etc etc. but in reality the standards either side of the border are identical today and on the day we leave, it's not beyond the ability of man to either change repeal or make new laws to enable this and 100,000 other emotional downsides.
and they will.
The source for this story was DAEFRA guidance notes
DAEFRA being the Dept for Agriculture, Environment, Farming and Rural Affairs in Northern Ireland
That's the UK bit.
Yes but it was Ireland who used the publication which noted the facts and used and twisted it as remain propaganda.0 -
Rolf F wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
That one's easy - the dog's owner could just say they couldn't see where they were.Alejandrosdog wrote:Ireland saying it would be against the law for guide dogs to cross the border we need a deal scaremongering etc etc.
There's our starter for ten - let's create a bit of positive vibe in Cake Stop for a change
Good point. And better than that, rather than putting the guide dog owner in a potentially embarrassing situation, why not have some sort of a fence and barrier kind of arrangement so that the guide dog owner doesn't get caught out when near the border?
I think some dog handlers would be necessary and proportionate too0 -
Stevo 666 wrote:
I'm sure SC can expand on his comment, I'm thinking more about the approach seen where there are endless references and links to all the likely and claimed downsides but almost no attempt to think how these could be dealt with - so I (and a few others) often have to step in to restore a spot of practical reality to the whinge festRolf F wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
That's been a running theme for a large part of this thread.Surrey Commuter wrote:Some people see problems where others see solutions
I think that the Remainers tendency to see problems is down to the utter failure of any brexiter ever to provide any solution (other than complete non starters drawn up on the back of a fag packet as per Boris's latest failure).
When nobody agrees about any solution how can that not be a problem?
the uncut version of my quote was a tongue in cheek suggestion that we straightened the Irish border, incorporating geographic features to halve the problem.
In reality our leaders should just man up and admit that Brexit will create losers and argue that it is a price worth paying.0 -
Surrey Commuter wrote:
In reality our leaders should just man up and admit that Brexit will create losers and argue that it is a price worth paying.
True. All this arguing over how to have a border but at the same time not have a border is truly a waste of everyone's effort.0 -
Alejandrosdog wrote:Rolf F wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
That one's easy - the dog's owner could just say they couldn't see where they were.Alejandrosdog wrote:Ireland saying it would be against the law for guide dogs to cross the border we need a deal scaremongering etc etc.
There's our starter for ten - let's create a bit of positive vibe in Cake Stop for a change
Good point. And better than that, rather than putting the guide dog owner in a potentially embarrassing situation, why not have some sort of a fence and barrier kind of arrangement so that the guide dog owner doesn't get caught out when near the border?
I think some dog handlers would be necessary and proportionate too
They probably should carry guns just in case someone lets their guide dog out of control.Faster than a tent.......0 -
Alejandrosdog wrote:TailWindHome wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:Exactly. Ireland saying it would be against the law for guide dogs to cross the border we need a deal scaremongering etc etc. but in reality the standards either side of the border are identical today and on the day we leave, it's not beyond the ability of man to either change repeal or make new laws to enable this and 100,000 other emotional downsides.
and they will.
The source for this story was DAEFRA guidance notes
DAEFRA being the Dept for Agriculture, Environment, Farming and Rural Affairs in Northern Ireland
That's the UK bit.
Yes but it was Ireland who used the publication which noted the facts and used and twisted it as remain propaganda.
Twisted it how?“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
KingstonGraham wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:
In reality our leaders should just man up and admit that Brexit will create losers and argue that it is a price worth paying.
True. All this arguing over how to have a border but at the same time not have a border is truly a waste of everyone's effort.
Likewise the pretence around not requesting an A50 extension, dying in a ditch, etc. It's all just talk. The only question is whether EU agree to an extension.
Jo Maugham has just lost his attempt to get the Scottish court to issue an order requiring Johnson to send the letter requesting an extension. The reason he lost is that the court consider that the government has already committed to follow the requirements of the Benn Act, therefore no further order is required.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
TailWindHome wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:TailWindHome wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:Exactly. Ireland saying it would be against the law for guide dogs to cross the border we need a deal scaremongering etc etc. but in reality the standards either side of the border are identical today and on the day we leave, it's not beyond the ability of man to either change repeal or make new laws to enable this and 100,000 other emotional downsides.
and they will.
The source for this story was DAEFRA guidance notes
DAEFRA being the Dept for Agriculture, Environment, Farming and Rural Affairs in Northern Ireland
That's the UK bit.
Yes but it was Ireland who used the publication which noted the facts and used and twisted it as remain propaganda.
Twisted it how?
By quoting it......?Faster than a tent.......0 -
Alejandrosdog wrote:
Exactly. Ireland saying it would be against the law for guide dogs to cross the border we need a deal scaremongering etc etc. but in reality the standards either side of the border are identical today and on the day we leave, it's not beyond the ability of man to either change repeal or make new laws to enable this and 100,000 other emotional downsides.
and they will.
Mutual acceptance of standards on both sides of the border would be a deal. Addressing each one of the 100,000 individually sounds like a proper pain in the arse.0 -
KingstonGraham wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:
In reality our leaders should just man up and admit that Brexit will create losers and argue that it is a price worth paying.
True. All this arguing over how to have a border but at the same time not have a border is truly a waste of everyone's effort.
Say posters presumably based in Surrey and Kingston.0 -
TailWindHome wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:Exactly. Ireland saying it would be against the law for guide dogs to cross the border we need a deal scaremongering etc etc. but in reality the standards either side of the border are identical today and on the day we leave, it's not beyond the ability of man to either change repeal or make new laws to enable this and 100,000 other emotional downsides.
and they will.
The source for this story was DAEFRA guidance notes
DAEFRA being the Dept for Agriculture, Environment, Farming and Rural Affairs in Northern Ireland
That's the UK bit.
Also, it is quite hard. Ireland won't want to change their legislation to accommodate our current needs as they are only short term needs. One of the reasons we are leaving is so that we can make our own rules and consequently there significant regulatory divergence in a very short space of time (this much is obvious from JRMs request to ministries for proposed bills for the next session of parliament.
If Ireland undergoes mass changes to their legislation to make the transition seamless they will then have to undergo the process of changing it all back as and when we diverge. That would kind of mean Ireland weren't in control of their own laws and lawmaking.Mud - Genesis Vapour CCX
Race - Fuji Norcom Straight
Sun - Cervelo R3
Winter / Commute - Dolan ADX0 -
Surrey Commuter wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
I'm sure SC can expand on his comment, I'm thinking more about the approach seen where there are endless references and links to all the likely and claimed downsides but almost no attempt to think how these could be dealt with - so I (and a few others) often have to step in to restore a spot of practical reality to the whinge festRolf F wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
That's been a running theme for a large part of this thread.Surrey Commuter wrote:Some people see problems where others see solutions
I think that the Remainers tendency to see problems is down to the utter failure of any brexiter ever to provide any solution (other than complete non starters drawn up on the back of a fag packet as per Boris's latest failure).
When nobody agrees about any solution how can that not be a problem?
the uncut version of my quote was a tongue in cheek suggestion that we straightened the Irish border, incorporating geographic features to halve the problem.
In reality our leaders should just man up and admit that Brexit will create losers and argue that it is a price worth paying.
Yes and the losers are the UK and the price is worth paying to keep the Conservative party together ?0 -
rjsterry wrote:KingstonGraham wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:
In reality our leaders should just man up and admit that Brexit will create losers and argue that it is a price worth paying.
True. All this arguing over how to have a border but at the same time not have a border is truly a waste of everyone's effort.
Likewise the pretence around not requesting an A50 extension, dying in a ditch, etc. It's all just talk. The only question is whether EU agree to an extension.
Jo Maugham has just lost his attempt to get the Scottish court to issue an order requiring Johnson to send the letter requesting an extension. The reason he lost is that the court consider that the government has already committed to follow the requirements of the Benn Act, therefore no further order is required.
Appeal in process. Lots of great judgments for lawyers over the last few weeks. This one is akin to undertakings (etc) in an application for an injunction, essentially that the Government (and Boris specifically) have made promises to the Court in their evidence that they are going to comply. As such the Order is not needed. At present, anyway.....My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
https://twitter.com/roubaixcc
Facebook? No. Just say no.0 -
Well of course, wherever the Leave vote was, a lot of the Brexiteer noise is coming out of the home counties, and it's a bit rich to point the finger at KG and SC when it's undeniably the Brexiteers who are being cavalier with the Irish border, the status of Northern Ireland and indeed the whole Union.TheBigBean wrote:KingstonGraham wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:
In reality our leaders should just man up and admit that Brexit will create losers and argue that it is a price worth paying.
True. All this arguing over how to have a border but at the same time not have a border is truly a waste of everyone's effort.
Say posters presumably based in Surrey and Kingston.
KG and SC, like most sensible people, are simply pointing out that it's Brexit that is causing the Irish border issues, and the Brexiteers - home county or not - have created this mess but have no solutions.0 -
Rolf F wrote:TailWindHome wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:TailWindHome wrote:Alejandrosdog wrote:Exactly. Ireland saying it would be against the law for guide dogs to cross the border we need a deal scaremongering etc etc. but in reality the standards either side of the border are identical today and on the day we leave, it's not beyond the ability of man to either change repeal or make new laws to enable this and 100,000 other emotional downsides.
and they will.
The source for this story was DAEFRA guidance notes
DAEFRA being the Dept for Agriculture, Environment, Farming and Rural Affairs in Northern Ireland
That's the UK bit.
Yes but it was Ireland who used the publication which noted the facts and used and twisted it as remain propaganda.
Twisted it how?
By quoting it......?
By using it as a threat, a reason to postpone Brexit, that no deal was a bad thing. (it might be a bad thing but the truth is that that particular issue need not be a life stopper, all that needs to happen is each side amends or creates relevant laws. However since the retainers position is that the EU is bigger will be less proportionally affected etc etc yawn in this case I suspect there are many more blind or partially sighted people in the EU than the UK though how many of them would want to cross the border is another matter.).0 -
TheBigBean wrote:KingstonGraham wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:
In reality our leaders should just man up and admit that Brexit will create losers and argue that it is a price worth paying.
True. All this arguing over how to have a border but at the same time not have a border is truly a waste of everyone's effort.
Say posters presumably based in Surrey and Kingston.
why does living in Surrey change the fact that there will be losers from leaving the EU and change whether the Govt is being dishonest in pretending otherwise?0 -
bendertherobot wrote:rjsterry wrote:KingstonGraham wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:
In reality our leaders should just man up and admit that Brexit will create losers and argue that it is a price worth paying.
True. All this arguing over how to have a border but at the same time not have a border is truly a waste of everyone's effort.
Likewise the pretence around not requesting an A50 extension, dying in a ditch, etc. It's all just talk. The only question is whether EU agree to an extension.
Jo Maugham has just lost his attempt to get the Scottish court to issue an order requiring Johnson to send the letter requesting an extension. The reason he lost is that the court consider that the government has already committed to follow the requirements of the Benn Act, therefore no further order is required.
Appeal in process. Lots of great judgements for lawyers over the last few weeks. This one is akin to undertakings (etc) in an application for an injunction, essentially that the Government (and Boris specifically) have made promises to the Court in their evidence that they are going to comply. As such the Order is not needed. At present, anyway.....
We will still no doubt have a load of amateur dramatics around the act of sending the request.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
TheBigBean wrote:KingstonGraham wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:
In reality our leaders should just man up and admit that Brexit will create losers and argue that it is a price worth paying.
True. All this arguing over how to have a border but at the same time not have a border is truly a waste of everyone's effort.
Say posters presumably based in Surrey and Kingston.
Well spotted, but not sure of the relevance.
They could accept that there is no way to have a border but also not have a border, and decide not to have a border and accept the logical consequences for the rest of the UK. What they seem to want to do is have a border, pretend there isn't a border, and let NI accept the logical consequences.
Hope that helps.0 -
TheBigBean wrote:KingstonGraham wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:
In reality our leaders should just man up and admit that Brexit will create losers and argue that it is a price worth paying.
True. All this arguing over how to have a border but at the same time not have a border is truly a waste of everyone's effort.
Say posters presumably based in Surrey and Kingston.
You forgot to mention where you are based - and how your location affects your viewpoint?0
