BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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Shout out to Gove who on German national unity day, in Germany, likens Brexit to the fall of the Berlin Wall and the Eastern European quest for freedom.
What a moron.0 -
briantrumpet wrote:Rather surprised to read a scathing report in the Telegraph about the NI view of Johnson's proposals:In fact, with the exception of the DUP, the proposal for Northern Ireland to be subjected to two borders - regulatory checks in the Irish sea, and a customs border with the Republic - is being ridiculed by business leaders and politicians across the spectrum. Even unionists in Northern Ireland, who are generally aligned with the outlook of Tory Brexiteers, have grave reservations, while there are doubts that the proposed Stormont lock is fit for purpose. Sources in Belfast say there are several fundamental flaws in Mr Johnson’s proposals which make them a non-starter - and, they claim, suggest a lack of understanding about the complexity of trade and politics in Northern Ireland.
If the business reaction to the two borders plan could be generously described as tepid, the political reaction has been positively scornful. All of the key political parties in Northern Ireland, bar the DUP, have lined up to attack this proposal. The nationalist Sinn Fein party says it is a “reckless, dangerous, disingenuous” idea. The moderate nationalist SDLP says that “anyone with a brain” can see that the proposal is not serious and doomed to be rejected by the EU. The centrist Alliance party says it is a “recipe for chaos”. The Ulster Unionist Party says the plan will doom Northern Ireland to perpetual Brexit uncertainty. And the Traditional Unionist Voice party says the plan ignores a key red line - preserving the integrity of the UK’s internal market. Meanwhile, former Northern Ireland secretary Lord Hain has said: "It's riddled with contradictions and I can't help but draw the conclusion that this is a cynical ploy.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... proposals/
What annoys me about this is it highlights the head in the sand belief in unicorns that got us into this mess. Why does nobody have the balls to say that there will be losers from Brexit and that the Northern Irish economy is one of them. There is no fvcking solution that involves the UK leaving the EU and NI staying in the UK.0 -
Sadly that's true and what the english have to realise about Brexit. They voted for the breakup of the uk. The angry response is they can go if they want. Some of those people then have the gaul to call remainers traitors. Leave.eu is barrel of laughs isn't it.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0
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Rick Chasey wrote:Shout out to Gove who on German national unity day, in Germany, likens Brexit to the fall of the Berlin Wall and the Eastern European quest for freedom.
What a moron.
A cheating liar yes but moron?
He saw the Leave campaign sell Brexit to enough voters to win the referendum. They swallowed the lies so easily.
He has evidence to show they are stupid enough to believe this deceit. Not that I would call Leave voters morons of course, just very easily taken in, poor creatures.
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The Irish customs border zone apparently..... (quite a high percentage of the whole of NI covered!)
https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/01/irish-customs-no-mans-land-look-like-10839369/
I wonder how far people will need to travel to these places away from the border that they'll need to go to for their customs checking. Bit of a bummer if you need to make a 5 mile deliver via a 50 mile round trip to a customs check point not at the border. There's probably a reason why border customs checks are normally carried out at the border....Faster than a tent.......0 -
they'll try to do it with just two, one at Omagh, one at Armagh. what could go wrong?Rolf F wrote:The Irish customs border zone apparently..... (quite a high percentage of the whole of NI covered!)
https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/01/irish-customs-no-mans-land-look-like-10839369/
I wonder how far people will need to travel to these places away from the border that they'll need to go to for their customs checking. Bit of a bummer if you need to make a 5 mile deliver via a 50 mile round trip to a customs check point not at the border. There's probably a reason why border customs checks are normally carried out at the border....0 -
Robert88 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Shout out to Gove who on German national unity day, in Germany, likens Brexit to the fall of the Berlin Wall and the Eastern European quest for freedom.
What a moron.
A cheating liar yes but moron?
Not sure you appreciate the level of offensiveness and lacking in cultural awareness of this.
If the shoe was on the other foot Brexiters would practically be passing out from the rage.
This is a man who thinks the truce that is the GFA is a travesty.0 -
darkhairedlord wrote:
they'll try to do it with just two, one at Omagh, one at Armagh. what could go wrong?Rolf F wrote:The Irish customs border zone apparently..... (quite a high percentage of the whole of NI covered!)
https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/01/irish-customs-no-mans-land-look-like-10839369/
I wonder how far people will need to travel to these places away from the border that they'll need to go to for their customs checking. Bit of a bummer if you need to make a 5 mile deliver via a 50 mile round trip to a customs check point not at the border. There's probably a reason why border customs checks are normally carried out at the border....
I am sure a few people will moan but why not straighten out the border and utilise those two big lakes it would more than halve the problem.0 -
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Rick Chasey wrote:Doesn’t customs border contravene the GFA on the premise of “no hard border”.
Tech or no tech.
It doesn't mentioned hard borders. Only reference is to "the removal of security installations".0 -
TheBigBean wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Doesn’t customs border contravene the GFA on the premise of “no hard border”.
Tech or no tech.
It doesn't mentioned hard borders. Only reference is to "the removal of security installations".
Which surely is?
What I sort of don't get is, it's all well talking the technicalities of the agreement, but it's essentially a truce, and if one side sees it as broken, you don't really expect them to go to chat to their lawyers first....
I get that this sounds a bit like encouraging Brexiters to riot if they don't get their way, and there's some truth to that, but the historical precedent is different.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:TheBigBean wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Doesn’t customs border contravene the GFA on the premise of “no hard border”.
Tech or no tech.
It doesn't mentioned hard borders. Only reference is to "the removal of security installations".
Which surely is?
No, it refers to the military posts which were on the border.0 -
TheBigBean wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:TheBigBean wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Doesn’t customs border contravene the GFA on the premise of “no hard border”.
Tech or no tech.
It doesn't mentioned hard borders. Only reference is to "the removal of security installations".
Which surely is?
No, it refers to the military posts which were on the border.
The working assumption is that the military would need to defend the customs posts.0 -
Well yes.
What are you going to do when the cameras or the infrastructure spots someone who is trangressing some rule?0 -
Surrey Commuter wrote:TheBigBean wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:TheBigBean wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Doesn’t customs border contravene the GFA on the premise of “no hard border”.
Tech or no tech.
It doesn't mentioned hard borders. Only reference is to "the removal of security installations".
Which surely is?
No, it refers to the military posts which were on the border.
The working assumption is that the military would need to defend the customs posts.
Interestingly the PSNI Chief Constable has told the PM that the PSNI 'won't police customs checkpoints'
Not sure what exactly that means or if the PSNI 'can' refuse to police customs checkpoints.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Well yes.
What are you going to do when the cameras or the infrastructure spots someone who is trangressing some rule?
You're going to send in the army?0 -
TheBigBean wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Well yes.
What are you going to do when the cameras or the infrastructure spots someone who is trangressing some rule?
You're going to send in the army?
No but the police surely?
And we all know what reputation the police have there....
How will the police be nearby to pick up the offender without any infrastructure.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:TheBigBean wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Well yes.
What are you going to do when the cameras or the infrastructure spots someone who is trangressing some rule?
You're going to send in the army?
No but the police surely?
And we all know what reputation the police have there....
How will the police be nearby to pick up the offender without any infrastructure.
There isn't a requirement to remove all police stations from NI.0 -
This is beyond the fact the suggestion means the EU has to give up some control of customs and rely on U.K. technology that currently is not in existence on any border...0
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TheBigBean wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:TheBigBean wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Well yes.
What are you going to do when the cameras or the infrastructure spots someone who is trangressing some rule?
You're going to send in the army?
No but the police surely?
And we all know what reputation the police have there....
How will the police be nearby to pick up the offender without any infrastructure.
There isn't a requirement to remove all police stations from NI.
I think you’re missing my earlier point; this isn’t just s legal document; it’s a truce and what one side *feels* matters.0 -
TailWindHome wrote:Interestingly the PSNI Chief Constable has told the PM that the PSNI 'won't police customs checkpoints'
Not sure what exactly that means or if the PSNI 'can' refuse to police customs checkpoints.
I guess it means that customs checkpoints are typically staffed by border force or HMRC officials, and that the police don't want to get involved.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:TheBigBean wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:TheBigBean wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Well yes.
What are you going to do when the cameras or the infrastructure spots someone who is trangressing some rule?
You're going to send in the army?
No but the police surely?
And we all know what reputation the police have there....
How will the police be nearby to pick up the offender without any infrastructure.
There isn't a requirement to remove all police stations from NI.
I think you’re missing my earlier point; this isn’t just s legal document; it’s a truce and what one side *feels* matters.
Then best to talk about that and not the legal agreement, but you keeping going on about the legal agreement.0 -
TheBigBean wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:TheBigBean wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:TheBigBean wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Well yes.
What are you going to do when the cameras or the infrastructure spots someone who is trangressing some rule?
You're going to send in the army?
No but the police surely?
And we all know what reputation the police have there....
How will the police be nearby to pick up the offender without any infrastructure.
There isn't a requirement to remove all police stations from NI.
I think you’re missing my earlier point; this isn’t just s legal document; it’s a truce and what one side *feels* matters.
Then best to talk about that and not the legal agreement, but you keeping going on about the legal agreement.
You're not understanding what I'm trying to say. If one side feels the agreement is not being adhered to, then that's a problem. What's written is relevant, but not the end of the issue.
Police in NI have a reputation for being remarkably like soldiers, for fairly obvious reasons, do they not?
So that is one challenge they will need to square.
Another challenge is the agreement proposed leaves the EU trusting in the UK using a currently not-in-existence technology to help police their customs border. That does not seem sensible from their perspective.0 -
As I pointed out earlier, this is a part of the world where police officers look under their family cars for bombs every time they get in them.Rick Chasey wrote:Police in NI have a reputation for being remarkably like soldiers, for fairly obvious reasons, do they not?
This despite the fact that things are a whole lot better now than they used to be.
The chances of things staying better under any kind of security infrastructure on the border are very, very small.
TBB, your commitment to interpreting exact legal phraseology is commendable but futile: nothing to do with Brexit is based on logical interpretation of legal documents, and on the Irish border it's much worse.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Doesn’t customs border contravene the GFA on the premise of “no hard border”.
Tech or no tech.
It also contravines the Eurpean withdrawal act 2018. thats domestic law. His plan therefore cant work without ammending the existing law. It also is the act that gives parliment its say on the terms of leaving. It is possible Boris does not have good legal advise or is simply not as bright as he thinks he is.
As for Gove he definatley is not bright. Degrees and fluid lamguage are not a marker for intelligence. Confidence over competance is Gove and Johnson.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
thecycleclinic wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Doesn’t customs border contravene the GFA on the premise of “no hard border”.
Tech or no tech.
It also contravines the Eurpean withdrawal act 2018. thats domestic law. His plan therefore cant work without ammending the existing law. It also is the act that gives parliment its say on the terms of leaving. It is possible Boris does not have good legal advise or is simply not as bright as he thinks he is.
As for Gove he definatley is not bright. Degrees and fluid lamguage are not a marker for intelligence. Confidence over competance is Gove and Johnson.
Well thank the stars then that Parliament is quite capable of repealing or amending existing acts or producing others.0 -
Alejandrosdog wrote:[Well thank the stars then that Parliament is quite capable of repealing or amending existing acts or producing others.
That's not straightforward with a govt majority of -43“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:
You're not understanding what I'm trying to say. If one side feels the agreement is not being adhered to, then that's a problem. What's written is relevant, but not the end of the issue.
What I understand is as follows. You would like to be able to argue that the EU is upholding the GFA/BA and the UK is looking to break it, because this narrative fits with your current take on UK politics. That you can't argue this, because the words simply aren't there in the agreement, you have shifted your focus to how people might feel about the agreement.
It is a perfectly legitimate point of view, and in the legal world is broadly addressed by the "spirit of the agreement". The problem I have is that you only seem to be concerned how "one side" feels about it whereas there are two sides to the discussion, and miffed people on both sides.0 -
TheBigBean wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:
You're not understanding what I'm trying to say. If one side feels the agreement is not being adhered to, then that's a problem. What's written is relevant, but not the end of the issue.
What I understand is as follows. You would like to be able to argue that the EU is upholding the GFA/BA and the UK is looking to break it, because this narrative fits with your current take on UK politics. That you can't argue this, because the words simply aren't there in the agreement, you have shifted your focus to how people might feel about the agreement.
It is a perfectly legitimate point of view, and in the legal world is broadly addressed by the "spirit of the agreement". The problem I have is that you only seem to be concerned how "one side" feels about it whereas there are two sides to the discussion, and miffed people on both sides.
Ireland and Irish commentators have made it clear that they see the proposal as not adhering to GFA.
What I find infuriating in your position is that you do not recognise that only one side of this actually wants Brexit to happen, and that the other side must accommodate to the point of undermining its entire premise for a reason I can't quite understand.
You can decide to leave the club and insist the club bend its rules to accommodate you once you've left. That's just stupid.
That's the fundamental difference we have.
I think you also see getting a deal as > integrity of single market.
I don't think anyone in Brussels really sees it like that. They can do so because of the leverage they have in the negotiations.0 -
https://news.sky.com/story/pm-will-seek ... r-11827149Boris Johnson will seek a Brexit extension from the EU if no withdrawal deal is reached by 19 October, government documents say.
The revelation in a Scottish court appears to be a direct contradiction of what the prime minister has said in public, insisting there would be no further delay and that the UK would leave the bloc on 31 October, with or without an agreement.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
