BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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bompington wrote:
So the best way to get what we want from Brexit is to aggressively push immigration? That'll go down well with the 'kippers...Wallace and Gromit wrote:If the UK leaves on bad terms it would be free to plunder the Polish workforce as it plunders the workforces of other countries for doctors etc
But it will be "controlled immigration" so we'll have taken back control. Besides, if we're shelling out an extra £350m to the NHS each week, we'll need some foreign doctors and nurses to absorb all this extra cash as wages, so UKIP will surely approve.0 -
Lookyhere wrote:The Polish economy is on the up, 3.6% gdp increase last year...
And how much of this is as a result of projects being funded by the "EU" (i.e. by the very few large net contributors, including the UK)?0 -
I made the mistake of looking at the front page of the Express or Mail (forget which) the other day and they had some incendiary headlines about how we're all going to be murdered by EU doctors. So possibly they won't approve.Wallace and Gromit wrote:bompington wrote:
So the best way to get what we want from Brexit is to aggressively push immigration? That'll go down well with the 'kippers...Wallace and Gromit wrote:If the UK leaves on bad terms it would be free to plunder the Polish workforce as it plunders the workforces of other countries for doctors etc
But it will be "controlled immigration" so we'll have taken back control. Besides, if we're shelling out an extra £350m to the NHS each week, we'll need some foreign doctors and nurses to absorb all this extra cash as wages, so UKIP will surely approve.0 -
finchy wrote:That's why the Visegrad 4 are using access to the single market as a weapon to stop hard Brexit happening.
Interesting. They may have mis-read their tea leaves on this if true. If forced to choose between the 2 extremes (ie hard exit or virtual non-exit, which is what retaining free movement would be) I suspect the UK will choose the latter.
I suspect the V4 are pushing this line so they can magnanimously concede the point in order to get concessions elsewhere in EU politics. But what do I know?
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bobmcstuff wrote:I made the mistake of looking at the front page of the Express or Mail (forget which) the other day...
I only ever read the Mail when visiting my parents. It's truly depressing.
Has the Express given up on Princess Di yet?0 -
Wallace and Gromit wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:When the clowns realise we would have to adopt all EU laws on common standards it will become a sticking point
I don't think there's any issue about complying with standards when selling to the EU. The UK has to comply with local standards when selling to the US, Australia, China etc.
The issue is that small, local business are compelled to comply with EU standards when they have no intention of exporting to the EU. An obvious, though financially insignificant example is the requirement to price food in. This is of no benefit to the customers of our local butcher, where 99.9% of the trade is with locals and 99% of the customers order in imperial measures. If there is a demand for metric pricing then local traders will either price in metric or go out of business. But it should be the customers who make this choice not some pencil pusher in Brussels.
Another example is the classification of fruit and. I don't care whether my carrots are class I, class II or whatever. I inspect them, check the prices against alternatives and buy the carrots that look good and are good value.
Whether compliance with these regulations is a major burden I know not but imposing them on a Eurosceptic / Euroneutral public was a bit of an own goal for the EU as it provided the tabloids endless ammunition about "unelected bureaucrats ruling the UK" and made "taking back control" so seductive.
In reality, the UK should simply not enforce laws EU regulations that clearly serve no real benefit other than keeping pencil pushers employed. I believe the French do this to great effect!
I object less to harmonisation of regulation than to the lowest common denominator approach. Take for example Low Cost Holidays. All travel agents in the UK must have an ATOL licence which protects the consumer in the event the travel agent goes bust. That worked fine until the EU decided that any EU country regulation was sufficient, so Low Cost Holidays was able to set itself up in Spain, sell exclusively to the UK, and follow a far lower standard of regulations resulting in the mess this summer.
Ditto the medical profession.0 -
Wallace and Gromit wrote:finchy wrote:That's why the Visegrad 4 are using access to the single market as a weapon to stop hard Brexit happening.
Interesting. They may have mis-read their tea leaves on this if true. If forced to choose between the 2 extremes (ie hard exit or virtual non-exit, which is what retaining free movement would be) I suspect the UK will choose the latter.
I suspect the V4 are pushing this line so they can magnanimously concede the point in order to get concessions elsewhere in EU politics. But what do I know?
No, they aren't. It's a major issue for them and an important principle. Having been stuck behind the Iron Curtain all those years, they don't want to end up in a situation in which the UK gets some really great deal on immigration (cherry picking their best workers and remaining in the single market), because then other countries might follow. They really don't want to lose freedom of movement having been denied it for so long.0 -
finchy wrote:They really don't want to lose freedom of movement having been denied it for so long.
Well if they play hardball and the UK simply exits the EU, free movement to the UK will definitely go, with the UK able to cherry-pick their best workers anyway. And lots of infrastructure projects will be at risk because the UK currently indirectly funds about a third of them. So it's a very high risk strategy if you're right.
A negotiated outcome is definitely best, unless they genuinely think that their "Good European" EU colleagues really don't want free movement of people either. Surely not, as it's only the inward looking xenophobic Brits who think free movement isn't wonderful...0 -
Wallace and Gromit wrote:finchy wrote:They really don't want to lose freedom of movement having been denied it for so long.
Well if they play hardball and the UK simply exits the EU, free movement to the UK will definitely go, with the UK able to cherry-pick their best workers anyway. And lots of infrastructure projects will be at risk because the UK currently indirectly funds about a third of them. So it's a very high risk strategy if you're right.
A negotiated outcome is definitely best, unless they genuinely think that their "Good European" EU colleagues really don't want free movement of people either. Surely not, as it's only the inward looking xenophobic Brits who think free movement isn't wonderful...
They're counting on the UK not being daft enough to leave the single market. Also, let's say that we do, and then our car manufacturers are subject to 10% tariffs. That would potentially lead to a lot of job losses in the UK, and those companies would be looking to relocate to an EU country. The V4 countries would all happily snap up those jobs.0 -
Wallace and Gromit wrote:with the UK able to cherry-pick their best workers anyway.
From the developing world, that is... My personal experience is that going abroad and living on a visa is something you do if it is life changing, for the better. Right now, people might come to improve their language, get marginally more money, but not many come for the lifestyle the Uk has on offer, unless you look at the very top end of earners who can live in Chelsea and dine at the Savoy. It's not California, it's not Australia, nobody will come here for the great weather, the great education or the great real estate your money can buy you.
What is left is not exactly worth of pick-and-choose... I like to think that Mrs May will be forced to lower her standards of entry or offer visa free entriesleft the forum March 20230 -
Stevo 666 wrote:
It is at present. I'm saying that maybe we should look at it differently and see if there is any room for compromise.finchy wrote:Stevo666 - the freedom of movement isn't just about economics, it's also about citizenship, so the freedom of movement is for European citizens, not workers.
I would argue that we don't have time to mess around with things like that. Once A50's triggered, we've got two years, the government has to be very realistic about what it can do and not f^^k about and waste time trying to renegotiate what the EU views as a fundamental founding principle.0 -
finchy wrote:I would argue that we don't have time to mess around with things like that. Once A50's triggered, we've got two years, the government has to be very realistic about what it can do and not f^^k about and waste time trying to renegotiate what the EU views as a fundamental founding principle.
There's good mileage in this suggestion. If it's obvious that there's no realistic hope of meaningful negotiations then getting out ASAP and starting the UK's post EU life without any constraints on what we can do makes sense.0 -
Wallace and Gromit wrote:finchy wrote:I would argue that we don't have time to mess around with things like that. Once A50's triggered, we've got two years, the government has to be very realistic about what it can do and not f^^k about and waste time trying to renegotiate what the EU views as a fundamental founding principle.
There's good mileage in this suggestion. If it's obvious that there's no realistic hope of meaningful negotiations then getting out ASAP and starting the UK's post EU life without any constraints on what we can do makes sense.
So you are suggesting a divorce without agreements... it sounds alright if you still look good and you fancy a bit of fun, but if you are old, ugly and in debt it can be a bit of an own goal... let's hope Britain looks more like the X-Factor than Benefit street then... left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:So you are suggesting a divorce without agreements...
Only if the EU won't negotiate meaningfully. If the choice boils down to so little change that the choice for the UK side is staying (albeit with a few minor tweaks) or "divorcing without agreements" then the latter is realistically the only option, unless the government decides to get in touch with its "Inner Good European" and ignore the referendum result.
And if it is divorce without agreements then getting on with it rather than dithering makes sense.0 -
Maybe not - it was an just idea.finchy wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
It is at present. I'm saying that maybe we should look at it differently and see if there is any room for compromise.finchy wrote:Stevo666 - the freedom of movement isn't just about economics, it's also about citizenship, so the freedom of movement is for European citizens, not workers.
I would argue that we don't have time to mess around with things like that. Once A50's triggered, we've got two years, the government has to be very realistic about what it can do and not f^^k about and waste time trying to renegotiate what the EU views as a fundamental founding principle.
Although clearly TM is most likely looking to see what can be done before triggering A50. Guess we will just have to wait and see. In the end, the EU has always involved a degree of fudge and compromise. As there has never been an exit like this (Greenland is simply not comparable), it is clearly hard to predict."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Wallace and Gromit wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:So you are suggesting a divorce without agreements...
Only if the EU won't negotiate meaningfully. If the choice boils down to so little change that the choice for the UK side is staying (albeit with a few minor tweaks) or "divorcing without agreements" then the latter is realistically the only option, unless the government decides to get in touch with its "Inner Good European" and ignore the referendum result.
And if it is divorce without agreements then getting on with it rather than dithering makes sense.
The UK could maybe offer to help bail out Deutsche Bank in exchange for some realism!0 -
Actually that could be applied elsewhere. We could put taxes up for all Labour voters and tell them that they have a socialist government. After all, they want higher taxesWallace and Gromit wrote:Joelsim wrote:Surely we could just take a leaf out of the Leave campaign's book, and tell Leavers that we have left? Half of them already think we have, so they're no problem.
There's some mileage in this I think! In fact, the more I think about it, it is a brilliant suggestion. No-one would actually be able to prove we hadn't left.
We could also increase the net contribution to say £250m per week and the Leave faction would think it had been reduced by £100m per week.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
People often talk about how they do things in Australia. Australia has a visa called a 457 visa
which allows an Aussie company to bring in say, a bunch of IT experts. They are paid a different (lower) rate and undercut the local market. I expect the Tories will be eyeing up opportunities like that.0 -
Come to London, we offer lower wages, no unemployment benefits and a ludicrous state pension compared to Berlin, in return for house prices being 3 times higher than Berlin... what's not to like?left the forum March 20230
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ugo.santalucia wrote:Come to London, we offer lower wages, no unemployment benefits and a ludicrous state pension compared to Berlin, in return for house prices being 3 times higher than Berlin... what's not to like?
I can't comment about Berlin specifically, but if your rant was true in general then there wouldn't have been a vote to leave the EU as there wouldn't have been enough immigrants to create an immigration problem.
For whatever reason, the UK appears to be a very popular place to come to work.0 -
Wallace and Gromit wrote:Lookyhere wrote:The Polish economy is on the up, 3.6% gdp increase last year...
And how much of this is as a result of projects being funded by the "EU" (i.e. by the very few large net contributors, including the UK)?
well, my company does a lot of trade with Polish companies, bring in money which we then pay taxes on to the UK government.
this co op with the Poles, is now very much at risk, we dont want to invest further in Poland and our Polish friends are wary of committing to a UK company, worrying times.
A strong Polish economy means less east european migrants "taking our jobs, housing, using our NHS and filling up our schools" so even if EU is giving a lot of money to Poland etc wouldnt the brexiters support this?
UK is popular with EU workers because our benefits system, will pay still generous tax credits and more importantly, housing benefit, so a worker on min wage can increase their net income 50% plus just with HB, if said worker has a partner and 2 kids, double it.0 -
Wallace and Gromit wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Come to London, we offer lower wages, no unemployment benefits and a ludicrous state pension compared to Berlin, in return for house prices being 3 times higher than Berlin... what's not to like?
I can't comment about Berlin specifically, but if your rant was true in general then there wouldn't have been a vote to leave the EU as there wouldn't have been enough immigrants to create an immigration problem.
For whatever reason, the UK appears to be a very popular place to come to work.
The immigration problem relates to low pay workers... I don't think anyone complained about EU workers in the city, in Higher Education or in IT. The problem is that if you remove the incentive of free mobility, it's the latter that will shop around, more than the former... I'm not sure it's the way to go
In my sector the wages suck, pension sucks and there are no benefits or "tax credits"... if I spoke German to a decent level to be able to do my job I'd certainly look thereleft the forum March 20230 -
Wallace and Gromit wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:For whatever reason, the UK appears to be a very popular place to come to work.
Its the music scene .... Everyone in Berlin listens to David Hasstlehoff0 -
Lookyhere wrote:A strong Polish economy means less east european migrants "taking our jobs, housing, using our NHS and filling up our schools" so even if EU is giving a lot of money to Poland etc wouldnt the brexiters support this?
I think the Brexiters prefer the more direct approach of stopping East Europeans "taking" anything by not letting them in the first place (except on holiday). This way, we're not reliant on paying to build up the (for example) Polish economy as the means of reducing the number of Poles coming to the UK.
You seem to be assuming that the "EU" is giving the money to Poland. Whilst this is true technically, the EU only has any significant money because Germany, the UK and France hand it over.0 -
Lookyhere wrote:...well, my company does a lot of trade with Polish companies, bring in money which we then pay taxes on to the UK government.
Poland's net contribution to the EU is to be paid 10 billion Euros a year one way or another. This is equivalent to circa 2.5% of GDP, which is a massive benefit to economic growth. The equivalent to the UK would be to get paid circa £50b each year by the EU, which is clearly a serious large amount.0 -
No, I think they're still on a "one front page per month" strategy with Di.Wallace and Gromit wrote:bobmcstuff wrote:I made the mistake of looking at the front page of the Express or Mail (forget which) the other day...
I only ever read the Mail when visiting my parents. It's truly depressing.
Has the Express given up on Princess Di yet?
The extent to which the Mail Online is read is really depressing (and when you look at the stats, it's probably less surprising we voted Leave).0 -
fat daddy wrote:
Its the music scene .... Everyone in Berlin listens to David Hasstlehoff
The reason English singing artists sell more records is simply down to them singing in English... there is a number of German bands who sold millions of records, singing in English... basically Germans do understand what you say, while you don't understand what they say... the perception that English sung music is somewhat better is flawed... for every ludicrous Continental artist, I can name a British one who is probably worse... want to play the game? left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:fat daddy wrote:
Its the music scene .... Everyone in Berlin listens to David Hasstlehoff
The reason English singing artists sell more records is simply down to them singing in English... there is a number of German bands who sold millions of records, singing in English... basically Germans do understand what you say, while you don't understand what they say... the perception that English sung music is somewhat better is flawed... for every ludicrous Continental artist, I can name a British one who is probably worse... want to play the game?
After living next to some people who insisted on playing them at top volume, you will never convince me that anything is worse than Scorpions.0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:fat daddy wrote:
Its the music scene .... Everyone in Berlin listens to David Hasstlehoff
The reason English singing artists sell more records is simply down to them singing in English... there is a number of German bands who sold millions of records, singing in English... basically Germans do understand what you say, while you don't understand what they say... the perception that English sung music is somewhat better is flawed... for every ludicrous Continental artist, I can name a British one who is probably worse... want to play the game?
Trio. You lose.0 -
Well, that must explain why 18% of the German music market is UK bands, while German bands have... errr... a bit less of the UK marketugo.santalucia wrote:fat daddy wrote:
Its the music scene .... Everyone in Berlin listens to David Hasstlehoff
The reason English singing artists sell more records is simply down to them singing in English... there is a number of German bands who sold millions of records, singing in English... basically Germans do understand what you say, while you don't understand what they say... the perception that English sung music is somewhat better is flawed... for every ludicrous Continental artist, I can name a British one who is probably worse... want to play the game?0
