BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,229
    Veronese68 wrote:
    Do people not know it hasn't happened yet?
    Nah, arris and elbow come to mind.

    Though, the light maybe dawning slowly. Even my closet racist neighbour woman, she who included amongst her reasons for voting Leave that "it's alright for the likes of Bob Geldof, they've already got lots of money" :roll: , yesterday asked me if I thought that we would ever be able to "control these migrants coming in". 'These migrants' being the non-European, non-white type from Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan and so on. Slowly coming to realise that can't blame flows of migration into Europe on the EU.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Business with the UK is very important for EU businesses and countries. The EU as a whole runs a huge trade surplus in goods with the UK so they have a lot to lose in that respect by not doing a deal. To think they can just ignore that is unrealistic.

    Lilliput syndrome.
    Nope, business reality.

    Estimates are that 3.6m UK jobs are tied to trade with the EU: 5.8m EU jobs are linked to trade with the UK. Who has more to lose from not cutting a sensible trade deal with the UK?

    Of course the EU could decide to cut their noses off to spite their face but that would if anything tell us what sort institution we are really dealing with. That said, I know that very large EU headquartered multinationals are lobbying hard in Brussels and in their own countries. It would be unwise politicians that ignore them.

    1)Think you're getting your proportions mixed up mate. UK has a population of 64 million, EU ex UK, 680 million. Even excluding the working age pop - which is proportionally lower in the UK compared to the EU, that's 5.6% of UK population versus 0.8% of the EU's. Like I said, lilliput syndrome.

    2) The negotiations aren't with one body that decides on behalf of everyone. It's 27 countries, each which has a veto over the entire deal. You don't think there are a few countries out there who really won't feel much pain with UK leaving? Not one?
    Percentage wise yes. But I quoted absolute numbers - so my point still stands that they have a lot to lose.

    I agree, the nature of the ratification is the biggest unknown.

    You're in la la land mate.

    You heard the Maltese PM yday? He has a veto over the entire process. He's comitted to the EU, therefore....
    "We want a fair deal for the UK, but it has to be a deal which is inferior to membership. You cannot have your cake and eat it"
    "I don't see a situation where Britain will be better off at the end of the deal."

    That's the point.
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Because of proportions, nothing the UK can inflict on the EU will hurt as much as what the EU can inflict on the UK.

    Ergo, UK cannot come out of a negotiation in a stronger position.

    It's like turning up to a gunfight with a knife and suing for a favourable truce - it ain't gonna happen.
    _
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,618
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Point is, people who seem to think the UK is in a strong negotiating position don't understand a) negotiations and b) proportions.

    The UK isn't even the second biggest economy in the EU right now.

    It's not a traditional negotiation though. It's not a zero sum game in that if the UK loses out then the EU will not automatically profit by the same amount. It's entirely possible that both sides could end up worse off as a result of badly handled negotiations.

    Obviously, there is a political angle to all this, but it wouldn't take much disruption to the EU economy to cause a significant adverse impact on employment levels and tax revenues in certain high profile areas. Will the voters in such countries consider domestic pain to be a price worth paying?

    There's also the fact that the EU countries are not united in terms of their priorities. The Germans in particular will be worried about the French exploiting any disruption for their diplomatic benefit. (The French are remarkably adept at using any EU crisis to their advantage, often at the expense of the Germans as well as the UK.)

    The apparent hard line re free movement being taken by Poland etc. could well just be something to concede in exchange for not taking a share of all the immigants that Frau Merkel encouraged to come.

    And there's also an important distinction between the EU (ie Juncker, Schultz etc.) and the member states. As the former have no meaning in life other than as EU functionaries, they have a vested interest in preserving everything whatever the cost. They are also completely insulated from the financial impact of f---ing things up.

    The leaders of the member states aren't so reliant on the EU for meaning and could potentially be more willing to compromise. They also have domestic popularity to consider. I mean, would the Italians take a risk on the health of their banking sector via the disruption of the UK leaving on bad terms just to preserve the rights of Poles to go wherever they want in the UK?

    The further the likes of Juncker et al are from the decision making the better it will be for the UK.

    There's also the small matter of the UK's contribution to the budget. And the UK, being a large net contributor, is indirectly paying for a lot of new infrastructure in Eastern Europe. A hard exit would presumably mean the end of this unless the Germans make up the UK's foregone contribution. Again, how popular would that be?

    A sensible negotiated settlement involving significant but incomplete access to the single market, reasonably free access to live and work in the UK and a sizeable contribution to the budget seems the "obvious" solution. The Leave campaign here apparently think the contribution is £350m per week, so we could actually increase our net contribution and still present it as a saving to the likes of Bozza and Farage!

    Having said all that, there are egos, politicians and guaranteed pensions involved, so it will probably go t*ts up for everyone!
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,618
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    UK cannot come out of a negotiation in a stronger position.

    I'm more optimistic than you longer term, but share your concerns to a certain degree. However, joining the ERM was meant to be our saviour. Instead, leaving it was. Conversely, the roof was going to fall in when we didn't join the Euro and it didn't, so predictions of doom always need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

    My main concern is that on the UK side were have a Parliament that didn't even consider the need to include voting threshold and super-majority thresholds and on the EU side we have the triumphant team that designed and manages the Euro. I wouldn't trust either side to do too much competently - other than preserve their pension entitlements - yet they are leading the charge on a very complex process.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Both sides will lose out. So that puts the EU in the position of strength. They can't afford to go easy on us, coupled with no setting precedents for other nations. Add in what Japan have said, what the US have said, what's been said about Free Movement et al. It's a total no win.

    I know experts don't mean anything to Leavers, but it's been made quite clear by the BoE that the UK will have to adjust to a smaller economy. Less foreign investment coming in will mean our balance of trade deficit increases ina huge way - basically money leaving the country year on year, and not a small amount.

    Sterling will go bang, exports in theory could go up as we become cheaper, as long as there aren't tariffs, but as we import far more than we export which will be considerably more expensive there will be less money in people's pockets. When you add companies that need to be able to trade in the single market leaving for Frankfurt or Paris or whereever it looks incredibly bleak.

    A trade deal with Australia seems to be the most important one to 47% of Leavers in a recent YouGov poll - £6bn that's said to be worth compared to £354bn with the EU.

    The net affect of all of this will be increased unemployment, a higher welfare bill, higher debt and higher interest payments, less ability to spend, more BoE intervention (if indeed there are any options) and whatever else.

    That will mean one thing, more cuts to public services, welfare, NHS, and almost certainly higher taxes on those who can't afford to shift their money back i.e. the PAYE brigade.

    Sounds cracking doesn't it?
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,419
    Joelsim wrote:
    Both sides will lose out. So that puts the EU in the position of strength. They can't afford to go easy on us, coupled with no setting precedents for other nations. Add in what Japan have said, what the US have said, what's been said about Free Movement et al. It's a total no win.

    I know experts don't mean anything to Leavers, but it's been made quite clear by the BoE that the UK will have to adjust to a smaller economy. Less foreign investment coming in will mean our balance of trade deficit increases ina huge way - basically money leaving the country year on year, and not a small amount.

    Sterling will go bang, exports in theory could go up as we become cheaper, as long as there aren't tariffs, but as we import far more than we export which will be considerably more expensive there will be less money in people's pockets. When you add companies that need to be able to trade in the single market leaving for Frankfurt or Paris or whereever it looks incredibly bleak.

    A trade deal with Australia seems to be the most important one to 47% of Leavers in a recent YouGov poll - £6bn that's said to be worth compared to £354bn with the EU.

    The net affect of all of this will be increased unemployment, a higher welfare bill, higher debt and higher interest payments, less ability to spend, more BoE intervention (if indeed there are any options) and whatever else.

    That will mean one thing, more cuts to public services, welfare, NHS, and almost certainly higher taxes on those who can't afford to shift their money back i.e. the PAYE brigade.

    Sounds cracking doesn't it?
    I'm just glad nobody like you is involved in negotiating the exit from the EU. The relentless negativity and losers mentality is a bit depressing really. We are where are and need to make the best of it.

    Not sure what it achieves other than you make you feel you were right about what most people predicted anyway - that the short and medium term impacts will be less good than staying in.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,419
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Because of proportions, nothing the UK can inflict on the EU will hurt as much as what the EU can inflict on the UK.

    Ergo, UK cannot come out of a negotiation in a stronger position.

    It's like turning up to a gunfight with a knife and suing for a favourable truce - it ain't gonna happen.
    It negotiation, not war.

    As I said before, if the EU runs a trade surplus with the UK and has more jobs connected with UK trade, the absolute (not %) impacts on the EU could be larger. The large and influential EU businesses that stand to lose from protectionism will not keep quiet and do nothing.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,419
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Business with the UK is very important for EU businesses and countries. The EU as a whole runs a huge trade surplus in goods with the UK so they have a lot to lose in that respect by not doing a deal. To think they can just ignore that is unrealistic.

    Lilliput syndrome.
    Nope, business reality.

    Estimates are that 3.6m UK jobs are tied to trade with the EU: 5.8m EU jobs are linked to trade with the UK. Who has more to lose from not cutting a sensible trade deal with the UK?

    Of course the EU could decide to cut their noses off to spite their face but that would if anything tell us what sort institution we are really dealing with. That said, I know that very large EU headquartered multinationals are lobbying hard in Brussels and in their own countries. It would be unwise politicians that ignore them.

    1)Think you're getting your proportions mixed up mate. UK has a population of 64 million, EU ex UK, 680 million. Even excluding the working age pop - which is proportionally lower in the UK compared to the EU, that's 5.6% of UK population versus 0.8% of the EU's. Like I said, lilliput syndrome.

    2) The negotiations aren't with one body that decides on behalf of everyone. It's 27 countries, each which has a veto over the entire deal. You don't think there are a few countries out there who really won't feel much pain with UK leaving? Not one?
    Percentage wise yes. But I quoted absolute numbers - so my point still stands that they have a lot to lose.

    I agree, the nature of the ratification is the biggest unknown.

    You're in la la land mate.

    You heard the Maltese PM yday? He has a veto over the entire process. He's comitted to the EU, therefore....
    "We want a fair deal for the UK, but it has to be a deal which is inferior to membership. You cannot have your cake and eat it"
    "I don't see a situation where Britain will be better off at the end of the deal."

    That's the point.
    Try reading what I actually posted, it will save you from posting stupid sweeping statements. Where did I say that any deal we can come to would be as good as what we have now?

    Do you rally think that countries like France and Germany who have a huge level of trade with the UK will sit by and let a pipsqueak side player like Malta scupper the whole deal?

    Also you and several others are totally ignoring the WTO trade agreements which we are automatically entitled to. Do you think that they are not relevant somehow?

    Lilliput syndrome? Better than losers mentality syndrome. Too much of it here.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Alright Trump, calm down.

    You're like the nutter at work, grinning manically, who keeps saying everything's an "opportunity", like losing a pitch or having the office burn down. I sense you don't spend much time working in sales.

    There's an opportunity in everything. Doesn't mean it outweighs the cost every time.
    _
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Do you rally think that countries like France and Germany who have a huge level of trade with the UK will sit by and let a pipsqueak side player like Malta scupper the whole deal?

    The Central and Eastern European countries aren't going to give up freedom of movement for EU citizens. No way. That's going to be the big sticking point. If Britain accepts this, negotiations might go relatively smoothly.
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Also you and several others are totally ignoring the WTO trade agreements which we are automatically entitled to. Do you think that they are not relevant somehow?

    We'd have to re-negotiate our position in the WTO first. And that might not be plain sailing.
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Lilliput syndrome? Better than losers mentality syndrome. Too much of it here.

    I think you might be misunderstanding what Lilliput syndrome is. It's not about how you perceive yourself, it means you underestimate the size and power of others.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,419
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Alright Trump, calm down.
    Ooh that's so hurtful.

    You're clearly ignorant of WTO rules as you've sidestepped the point. I suppose I can't blame you for lack of knowledge of trade rules or business experience but it is relevant to the issue.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,419
    finchy wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Do you rally think that countries like France and Germany who have a huge level of trade with the UK will sit by and let a pipsqueak side player like Malta scupper the whole deal?

    The Central and Eastern European countries aren't going to give up freedom of movement for EU citizens. No way. That's going to be the big sticking point. If Britain accepts this, negotiations might go relatively smoothly.
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Also you and several others are totally ignoring the WTO trade agreements which we are automatically entitled to. Do you think that they are not relevant somehow?

    We'd have to re-negotiate our position in the WTO first. And that might not be plain sailing.
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Lilliput syndrome? Better than losers mentality syndrome. Too much of it here.

    I think you might be misunderstanding what Lilliput syndrome is. It's not about how you perceive yourself, it means you underestimate the size and power of others.
    I'm not misunderstanding. Rick is due to his lack of knowledge and experience.

    The WTO has 164 members. The total number of countries in the World is around 200. It is almost inconceivable that the UK would not be allowed to rejoin the WTO in its own right.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Yes, we'll get in eventually, but how long will that take?
  • verylonglegs
    verylonglegs Posts: 4,023
    Stevo when you talk about EU trade I can't help but think you are only considering trade between UK and European firms. What about all the foreign firms that base themselves here purely for easy access to the European market? Largely Japanese and American. Think they'll hang around if it's no longer hassle free to build products here and slap a 'Made in EU' sticker on it and ship them to the mainland? They have no influence at all in deciding the outcome yet to get it wrong would probably result in hundreds of thousands out of work, at the very least.

    This is also relevant when you cite a trade surplus as a negotiating tool as that surplus is only possible because low employment here means we have a heathly economy and many people with purchasing power. If jobs and investment bleed away then so does demand for overseas produce and suddenly we aren't a special trading partner anymore, the two sides feed each other.

    Also I think you are under-estimating the political will of the EU leadership to keep things going regardless, everyone knows the Euro as a currency is unworkable in the long term but we can all bear witness to their determination politically to keep it going. It will be the same with their EU project, they will burn the UK if necessary in order to keep it going.

    I get the impression you over-estimate the power of a Tory government in this situation because they are 'your' party. I would love to be wrong I really would but I see scant evidence to suggest otherwise so far.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    There will undoubtedly be a cost to both sides in any negotiations, but having voted OUT we should make the best of it. There is no going back, we are where we are at. This "Woe is us" attitude will do nothing for us.
    I had hoped that following a remain result, the EU would realise that vast swathes of the population across the continent want a looser arrangement and would embrace reform. But that was not to be. We voted to leave and the EU thinks the answer is more integration.
    We have had Junker speaking about an EU military alliance and even a HQ in Belgium. At least 4 members, Austria, Ireland, Sweden and Finland are neutral, but their neutrality seems to count for nothing.
    It is ironic that the discussions have centred on our trade with the EU. If the EU had remained purely a trading bloc, we would probably be the most enthusiastic member, but it has morphed into much more.
    Perhaps we were always destined not to go beyond a certain point on the road to an EU state. There will be pain when we leave but perhaps more pain would lie down the line when the inevitable split came.
    If it is to be WTO rules, then so be it.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    Re: Trade Agreements: Why do they matter??
    Postby Ballysmate » Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:44 pm

    The EU and South Korea are important trading partners. South Korea is the EU's ninth largest export destination for goods, whereas the EU is South Korea's third largest export market.

    http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countr ... dex_en.htm

    EU negotiates a FTA with its 9th largest market, so I assume that it would welcome a deal with its largest.
    Not much mention of free movement either...

    So a FTA can be done. Single market access is perhaps a step too far though for the EU.
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Ballysmate wrote:
    I had hoped that following a remain result, the EU would realise that vast swathes of the population across the continent want a looser arrangement and would embrace reform. But that was not to be. We voted to leave and the EU thinks the answer is more integration.

    But attitudes are much more pro-EU and pro-integration on the continent than they are in Britain.
    Ballysmate wrote:
    We have had Junker speaking about an EU military alliance and even a HQ in Belgium. At least 4 members, Austria, Ireland, Sweden and Finland are neutral, but their neutrality seems to count for nothing.

    If they want to opt out, they'll be able to opt out. The EU can't just coerce member states into an EU army.
    Ballysmate wrote:
    It is ironic that the discussions have centred on our trade with the EU. If the EU had remained purely a trading bloc, we would probably be the most enthusiastic member, but it has morphed into much more.
    Perhaps we were always destined not to go beyond a certain point on the road to an EU state. There will be pain when we leave but perhaps more pain would lie down the line when the inevitable split came.
    If it is to be WTO rules, then so be it.

    Have you read the link I posted about staying in the WTO? Our membership is on condition of being in the EU. When we leave, the government needs to re-negotiate our membership. We don't know how long that will take. What if, say, the Argentinians decide that they want a greater say in the Falklands as a condition for not blocking us? Or what if we leave the EU, fail to get a trade deal and then certain EU member states decide to block WTO accession until we reinstate freedom of movement? This could take years. That's why we just need to accept that the EU isn't going to just give us everything we want, and push for a deal which will be acceptable to them immediately. We simply haven't got time to waste.
  • frisbee
    frisbee Posts: 691
    Ballysmate wrote:
    There will undoubtedly be a cost to both sides in any negotiations, but having voted OUT we should make the best of it. There is no going back, we are where we are at. This "Woe is us" attitude will do nothing for us.
    I had hoped that following a remain result, the EU would realise that vast swathes of the population across the continent want a looser arrangement and would embrace reform. But that was not to be. We voted to leave and the EU thinks the answer is more integration.
    We have had Junker speaking about an EU military alliance and even a HQ in Belgium. At least 4 members, Austria, Ireland, Sweden and Finland are neutral, but their neutrality seems to count for nothing.
    It is ironic that the discussions have centred on our trade with the EU. If the EU had remained purely a trading bloc, we would probably be the most enthusiastic member, but it has morphed into much more.
    Perhaps we were always destined not to go beyond a certain point on the road to an EU state. There will be pain when we leave but perhaps more pain would lie down the line when the inevitable split came.
    If it is to be WTO rules, then so be it.

    The referendum isn't binding, the current government or future governments don't have to obey the result and it would still have to get through parliament.

    I think leaving Europe is an idiotic idea for Britain. Personally I'm fine because I'm a dual national!
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Stevo doesn't half sound like the arrogant buffoons in charge of leading the negotiations. Living on cloud cuckoo land.

    What is it Stevo? Don't care that millions more will be added to the soup kitchen queues? Happy that the PAYE brigade will have to carry and increased share of a higher welfare spend through higher taxes that people like Boris will circumvent? Hell, why doesn't everyone just write Boris a personal cheque for several thousand now as that is exactly what'll happen - those who can afford it will move money and tax arrangements accordingly, those that can't will be hammered.

    Fortunately there is a very long way to go before A50 is invoked. Forces at work to ensure it's a Parliamentary decision rather than led by a bunch of self-interested f*cktards. Given that 80% of Parliament are Remainers with sense...

    And of course the person who invokes A50 goes down in history as the person who ignored the fact that the ref was won on false promises and broke Britain.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,419
    Joelsim wrote:
    Stevo doesn't half sound like the arrogant buffoons in charge of leading the negotiations. Living on cloud cuckoo land.

    What is it Stevo? Don't care that millions more will be added to the soup kitchen queues? Happy that the PAYE brigade will have to carry and increased share of a higher welfare spend through higher taxes that people like Boris will circumvent? Hell, why doesn't everyone just write Boris a personal cheque for several thousand now as that is exactly what'll happen - those who can afford it will move money and tax arrangements accordingly, those that can't will be hammered.

    Fortunately there is a very long way to go before A50 is invoked. Forces at work to ensure it's a Parliamentary decision rather than led by a bunch of self-interested f*cktards. Given that 80% of Parliament are Remainers with sense...

    And of course the person who invokes A50 goes down in history as the person who ignored the fact that the ref was won on false promises and broke Britain.
    Stop imagining things and putting words into my mouth.

    I just find it depressing listening to people like you sitting around and moaning that were all doomed. There is a lot to play for. I don't recall that attitude/approach ever helping me achieve anything. But if it makes you feel better and able to smugly say 'I told you so', good on you.

    I voted to stay but we we are we are and need to make the best of it. I'd rather we werent having to go through this process but no point assuming we have lost before the whistle has even blown.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    I get a bit worried that there are people who would rather be proved right than have Britain do well after Brexit. I would be very happy to be wrong, but we'll obviously never know.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,419
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    I get a bit worried that there are people who would rather be proved right than have Britain do well after Brexit. I would be very happy to be wrong, but we'll obviously never know.
    I wouldn't worry too much as in my experience, people with that sort of negative, defeatist attitude rarely get into positions where that can influence anything of any significance.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    We aren't where we are yet. There is still much to play for. Until A50 is invoked, which may never happen.

    I'd be failing my children if I took your attitude of 'oh well, it's completely wrong but let's just accept it'.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    I get a bit worried that there are people who would rather be proved right than have Britain do well after Brexit. I would be very happy to be wrong, but we'll obviously never know.
    I wouldn't worry too much as in my experience, people with that sort of negative, defeatist attitude rarely get into positions where that can influence anything of any significance.

    And there are plenty of people with the same attitude as me in positions of influence, 80% of Parliament for a start.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    Joelsim wrote:
    We aren't where we are yet. There is still much to play for. Until A50 is invoked, which may never happen.

    I'd be failing my children if I took your attitude of 'oh well, it's completely wrong but let's just accept it'.

    Don't accept that everything the Brexiteers say has to happen, but do accept that we lost the referendum. And that it doesn't mean everything is definitely going to be shit.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    We aren't where we are yet. There is still much to play for. Until A50 is invoked, which may never happen.

    I'd be failing my children if I took your attitude of 'oh well, it's completely wrong but let's just accept it'.

    Don't accept that everything the Brexiteers say has to happen, but do accept that we lost the referendum. And that it doesn't mean everything is definitely going to be shoot.

    I have no interest in what the Brexiteers say is going to happen. I'll make my own judgements on what'll transpire by listening to expert opinions and adding a dose of reality. What they think is going to happen clearly can't, unless we're talking about hard Brexit which appears to be the only available option.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    Joelsim wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    We aren't where we are yet. There is still much to play for. Until A50 is invoked, which may never happen.

    I'd be failing my children if I took your attitude of 'oh well, it's completely wrong but let's just accept it'.

    Don't accept that everything the Brexiteers say has to happen, but do accept that we lost the referendum. And that it doesn't mean everything is definitely going to be shoot.

    I have no interest in what the Brexiteers say is going to happen. I'll make my own judgements on what'll transpire by listening to expert opinions and adding a dose of reality. What they think is going to happen clearly can't, unless we're talking about hard Brexit which appears to be the only available option.

    I meant we shouldn't accept that the people who ran the Brexit campaign have any sort of mandate to impose a deal beyond what was voted for.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    We aren't where we are yet. There is still much to play for. Until A50 is invoked, which may never happen.

    I'd be failing my children if I took your attitude of 'oh well, it's completely wrong but let's just accept it'.

    Don't accept that everything the Brexiteers say has to happen, but do accept that we lost the referendum. And that it doesn't mean everything is definitely going to be shoot.

    I have no interest in what the Brexiteers say is going to happen. I'll make my own judgements on what'll transpire by listening to expert opinions and adding a dose of reality. What they think is going to happen clearly can't, unless we're talking about hard Brexit which appears to be the only available option.

    I meant we shouldn't accept that the people who ran the Brexit campaign have any sort of mandate to impose a deal beyond what was voted for.

    Can anyone say what was voted for?

    Brexit means Brexit after all in the same way that Bake Off means Bake Off.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    Joelsim wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    We aren't where we are yet. There is still much to play for. Until A50 is invoked, which may never happen.

    I'd be failing my children if I took your attitude of 'oh well, it's completely wrong but let's just accept it'.

    Don't accept that everything the Brexiteers say has to happen, but do accept that we lost the referendum. And that it doesn't mean everything is definitely going to be shoot.

    I have no interest in what the Brexiteers say is going to happen. I'll make my own judgements on what'll transpire by listening to expert opinions and adding a dose of reality. What they think is going to happen clearly can't, unless we're talking about hard Brexit which appears to be the only available option.

    I meant we shouldn't accept that the people who ran the Brexit campaign have any sort of mandate to impose a deal beyond what was voted for.

    Can anyone say what was voted for?

    Brexit means Brexit after all in the same way that Bake Off means Bake Off.

    Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

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