BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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Comments

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Shoutout to the imperialists who bang on about UK bringing rule of law to the rest of the world whilst supporting BoJo breaking UK law for Brexit.
    _
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Cummings is an election guy isn’t he?

    I think it’s best viewing everything they say and highlight through an election campaign lens.

    All that front page on the telegraph, which the Indy is second hand reporting on does is reinforce “we really really want this over with” which is the message the Tories are going to campaign on.

    It'll take a lot of skill to present “we really really want this over with” but not have the public see impotence
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,555
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Cummings is an election guy isn’t he?

    I think it’s best viewing everything they say and highlight through an election campaign lens.

    All that front page on the telegraph, which the Indy is second hand reporting on does is reinforce “we really really want this over with” which is the message the Tories are going to campaign on.

    It'll take a lot of skill to present “we really really want this over with” but not have the public see impotence

    Nonetheless, the other parties will need to put forward something to counter the Parliament vs. the people nonsense. Just saying "no it isn't" isn't going to cut it. They need to spell out unambiguously what they are for rather than what they are against. They also need to convince the EU that there is something beyond the inevitable GE, not just more dithering.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Shoutout to the imperialists who bang on about UK bringing rule of law to the rest of the world whilst supporting BoJo breaking UK law for Brexit.

    Is it not wonderful to learn that one of our Imperial proteges has now succeeded in achieving a moon landing? (Albeit they have lost contact for now), it is one of only 4 nations that have achieved such a thing.

    We should be vicariously proud of our achievement.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    In people vs parliament we all loose cooper the 1st.

    Cooper the first and all those like you, wake up to what your saying. I'm o.k with leaving the eu. I am not o.k with what your posts imply with people vs parliament. That's utterly dangerous. That's about your way and sod everyone else.

    The opposition parties and their MP's do not want a GE because the answer from the people to them will be that we don't like what they are doing and what they are currently doing is wrong. The MP's know this

    That makes it People vs Parliament.

    No because 85% of the population aren’t so dumb as to view a GE as a single issue poll.
    It seems to be what the politicians of all sides are making it into.

    But as a remainer, I assume you still wouldn't want Corbyn.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    People who 'don't want Corbyn' are probably the same people who didn't want 'chaos under Ed Milliband'. So we got chaos with some self-serving tories instead...
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    I mean it is a choice between losing a leg or getting punched in the face. One will take a while longer to recover from. Your choice which is which.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    I mean it is a choice between losing a leg or getting punched in the face. One will take a while longer to recover from. Your choice which is which.

    If that was the choice, I'd take the punch every time. Losing a leg is not generally something that people recover from in any meaningful sense...
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    Imposter wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    I mean it is a choice between losing a leg or getting punched in the face. One will take a while longer to recover from. Your choice which is which.

    If that was the choice, I'd take the punch every time. Losing a leg is not generally something that people recover from in any meaningful sense...

    You can make alternative arrangements based on technological solutions.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Cummings is an election guy isn’t he?

    I think it’s best viewing everything they say and highlight through an election campaign lens.

    All that front page on the telegraph, which the Indy is second hand reporting on does is reinforce “we really really want this over with” which is the message the Tories are going to campaign on.

    It'll take a lot of skill to present “we really really want this over with” but not have the public see impotence

    mmmmmmmmmmm straw poll around my desk suggests they have fully bought into this line.
    _
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Cummings is an election guy isn’t he?

    I think it’s best viewing everything they say and highlight through an election campaign lens.

    All that front page on the telegraph, which the Indy is second hand reporting on does is reinforce “we really really want this over with” which is the message the Tories are going to campaign on.

    It'll take a lot of skill to present “we really really want this over with” but not have the public see impotence

    mmmmmmmmmmm straw poll around my desk suggests they have fully bought into this line.
    The problem with "just get it over with" isn't that they can't make something happen - they surely can - it's the wilful blindness to the fact that whatever happens, it just goes on.

    (Although remaining, despite the undoubted fury of the "Brexit is all I ever wanted" crowd, would be my bet for getting back to stability the quickest)
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Guy Verhofstadt
    @guyverhofstadt
    Foreign Minister Le Drian is right: yet another extension for Brexit is unacceptable, unless the deadlock in London is broken. Let it be a 2nd ref., new elections, a revocation of art. 50 or the approval of the deal, but not today’s helpless status quo


    Guy leaves no deal on the table.
    Isn't this a bit of a statement of the obvious?

    It also seems pretty nailed on that there will be a GE directly after any extension anyway.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    bompington wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Cummings is an election guy isn’t he?

    I think it’s best viewing everything they say and highlight through an election campaign lens.

    All that front page on the telegraph, which the Indy is second hand reporting on does is reinforce “we really really want this over with” which is the message the Tories are going to campaign on.

    It'll take a lot of skill to present “we really really want this over with” but not have the public see impotence

    mmmmmmmmmmm straw poll around my desk suggests they have fully bought into this line.
    The problem with "just get it over with" isn't that they can't make something happen - they surely can - it's the wilful blindness to the fact that whatever happens, it just goes on.

    Sure, but reality does not equal perception.

    --
    Am reminded of something May's former PR man said when they were doing studies on what lines & policies were cutting through.

    They found in their focus group the majority of people would turn off or avoid the news if they saw Brexit was the leader, so all the other stuff was lost.

    I think majority of people who don't go out of the way to argue and engange in the debates (i.e. non-forum people) just want people to shut up about it and just see sense in "getting it done and moving on". They don't want to listen, they just want parliament to sort it all out on their behalf, preferably without bothering them.

    I think that is entirely the Cummings strategy; focus on those folk, and I think people are too focused on the noise of parliamentary shenanigans and not enough on the election. They have no majority, why would the tories even bother trying to do anything other than call a GE as favourably as possible?
    _
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    bompington wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Cummings is an election guy isn’t he?

    I think it’s best viewing everything they say and highlight through an election campaign lens.

    All that front page on the telegraph, which the Indy is second hand reporting on does is reinforce “we really really want this over with” which is the message the Tories are going to campaign on.

    It'll take a lot of skill to present “we really really want this over with” but not have the public see impotence

    mmmmmmmmmmm straw poll around my desk suggests they have fully bought into this line.
    The problem with "just get it over with" isn't that they can't make something happen - they surely can - it's the wilful blindness to the fact that whatever happens, it just goes on.

    (Although remaining, despite the undoubted fury of the "Brexit is all I ever wanted" crowd, would be my bet for getting back to stability the quickest)

    Exactly - no deal is just going to lead to years of negotiations so Brexit will still be in the news for a long while yet.

    Even if there is a deal there are still the future relationship talks, which is another several years (I assume they'll need to push the transition period out as well now). I also expect that there will be the same arguments we are having now a couple of years down the line when the future relationship isn't sorted before the end of the transition period.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Yes yes but the electorate collectively are ignorant.

    We all know this. That is why it is a representative democracy, and things like referendums are advisory.

    We are in an election campaign mode; the parliamentary shenanigans are just defining what the campaign will look like, and plainly the Tories have an advantage in that being the government they can dictate the battlegrounds for the campaign more easily.

    I would view everything that is done through the lens of how it impacts the election; I believe that is now the motive behind most or all of the behaviour. We know the Tory & SNP lines; the labour/lib dems lines are not clear, though Lib Dems will be obvious and will cut through.
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Yes yes but the electorate collectively are ignorant.

    We all know this. That is why it is a representative democracy, and things like referendums are advisory.

    We are in an election campaign mode; the parliamentary shenanigans are just defining what the campaign will look like, and plainly the Tories have an advantage in that being the government they can dictate the battlegrounds for the campaign more easily.

    I would view everything that is done through the lens of how it impacts the election; I believe that is now the motive behind most or all of the behaviour. We know the Tory & SNP lines; the labour/lib dems lines are not clear, though Lib Dems will be obvious and will cut through.

    But who will campaign under the Conservative brand. Boris is well on the way to creating a new high spending, right wing, populist party. I seem to remember that the Tory party power lies with the constituency associations so could they be rent asunder?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Yes yes but the electorate collectively are ignorant.

    We all know this. That is why it is a representative democracy, and things like referendums are advisory.

    We are in an election campaign mode; the parliamentary shenanigans are just defining what the campaign will look like, and plainly the Tories have an advantage in that being the government they can dictate the battlegrounds for the campaign more easily.

    I would view everything that is done through the lens of how it impacts the election; I believe that is now the motive behind most or all of the behaviour. We know the Tory & SNP lines; the labour/lib dems lines are not clear, though Lib Dems will be obvious and will cut through.

    But who will campaign under the Conservative brand. Boris is well on the way to creating a new high spending, right wing, populist party. I seem to remember that the Tory party power lies with the constituency associations so could they be rent asunder?
    I know nothing of internal tory politics. So I can't really answer that one.
    _
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Cummings is an election guy isn’t he?

    I think it’s best viewing everything they say and highlight through an election campaign lens.

    All that front page on the telegraph, which the Indy is second hand reporting on does is reinforce “we really really want this over with” which is the message the Tories are going to campaign on.

    It'll take a lot of skill to present “we really really want this over with” but not have the public see impotence

    mmmmmmmmmmm straw poll around my desk suggests they have fully bought into this line.

    Will this hold when Leave EU/Brexit Party/Farage pound them with the betrayal narrative?
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    Boris shutting down parliament today.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,414
    Pross wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Daily Telegraph with details of the Cummings strategy to confund the Extension law.

    Send the letter asking for an extension.

    But, send a second letter to say the UK doesn't want an extension.

    They've lost the plot.

    The other suggestion I heard was he could simply call a friendly EU leader (such as the Hungarian PM) and ask them to refuse to accept it as all members need to agree
    A possible strategy given that any EU member no matter how small, can wield the veto on this. I expect the extension bill has foreseen the possibility of the UK vetoing its own request as an EU member currently.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,414
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    May not be necessary, thanks to our French friends...
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-latest-article-50-delay-france-boris-johnson-extension-a9096361.html


    It's not even a week since the Telegraph were claiming the EU were offering to extend the deadline and this was a sure sign the EU were cracking.
    Clearly the EU is not the same as France - also could be that this is a new-ish development. I guess we'll see if there is an extension request made next month.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,414
    Robert88 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Daily Telegraph with details of the Cummings strategy to confund the Extension law.

    Send the letter asking for an extension.

    But, send a second letter to say the UK doesn't want an extension.

    They've lost the plot.
    May not be necessary, thanks to our French friends...
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-latest-article-50-delay-france-boris-johnson-extension-a9096361.html

    It seems the French can recognise a regime that has gone batshit crazy and the impossibility of any deal.

    Imagine the situation if by some miracle a deal was struck. The regime led by Johnson would constantly endeavour to use it as a political device to strengthen their grip on power. They would seek to destroy the EU by obstruction, propaganda and creating division amongst its members.

    France would be absolutely justified in refusing to negotiate further with the UK regime at this stage; you can't do deals with people like Johnson and Cummings and conceivably Farage and expect not to be shafted.

    The rhetoric, lies and obstruction emanating from the Leave government and press demonstrates that, all day and every day. They have made an enemy out of the EU, a peaceful union whom they simply wish to destroy.

    As long as the charade continues it allows the Leave destroyers to ramp up the chorus of hate. The EU should cut its losses and say 'enough is enough, there can be no deal' with current UK 'government'.

    When you encounter a mad dog you can't try to befriend it.
    Or possibly like last time when Macron put a limit of 7 months on the extension granted, because he wanted to be seen to be 'talking tough' shortly before some French elections.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,414
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    In people vs parliament we all loose cooper the 1st.

    Cooper the first and all those like you, wake up to what your saying. I'm o.k with leaving the eu. I am not o.k with what your posts imply with people vs parliament. That's utterly dangerous. That's about your way and sod everyone else.

    The opposition parties and their MP's do not want a GE because the answer from the people to them will be that we don't like what they are doing and what they are currently doing is wrong. The MP's know this

    That makes it People vs Parliament.

    No because 85% of the population aren’t so dumb as to view a GE as a single issue poll.
    It seems to be what the politicians of all sides are making it into.

    But as a remainer, I assume you still wouldn't want Corbyn.
    There's another thread that makes my views on that pretty clear...
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Daily Telegraph with details of the Cummings strategy to confund the Extension law.

    Send the letter asking for an extension.

    But, send a second letter to say the UK doesn't want an extension.

    They've lost the plot.

    The other suggestion I heard was he could simply call a friendly EU leader (such as the Hungarian PM) and ask them to refuse to accept it as all members need to agree
    A possible strategy given that any EU member no matter how small, can wield the veto on this. I expect the extension bill has foreseen the possibility of the UK vetoing its own request as an EU member currently.

    IANAL but I'd imagine asking for an extension then vetoing falls under the same category as the two letters wheeze.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    May not be necessary, thanks to our French friends...
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-latest-article-50-delay-france-boris-johnson-extension-a9096361.html


    It's not even a week since the Telegraph were claiming the EU were offering to extend the deadline and this was a sure sign the EU were cracking.
    Clearly the EU is not the same as France - also could be that this is a new-ish development. I guess we'll see if there is an extension request made next month.

    It was also France 'extending the deadline' last week
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,414
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    May not be necessary, thanks to our French friends...
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-latest-article-50-delay-france-boris-johnson-extension-a9096361.html


    It's not even a week since the Telegraph were claiming the EU were offering to extend the deadline and this was a sure sign the EU were cracking.
    Clearly the EU is not the same as France - also could be that this is a new-ish development. I guess we'll see if there is an extension request made next month.

    It was also France 'extending the deadline' last week
    Seems we're not the only ones with no consistent approach to this, then.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    May not be necessary, thanks to our French friends...
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-latest-article-50-delay-france-boris-johnson-extension-a9096361.html


    It's not even a week since the Telegraph were claiming the EU were offering to extend the deadline and this was a sure sign the EU were cracking.
    Clearly the EU is not the same as France - also could be that this is a new-ish development. I guess we'll see if there is an extension request made next month.

    It was also France 'extending the deadline' last week
    Seems we're not the only ones with no consistent approach to this, then.

    That's one explanation.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    EEBbeElXkAEAWlk?format=jpg&name=medium
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    Bercow resigns
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    Faisal Islam
    @faisalislam
    · 1m
    Bercow basically ensuring that this Parliament selects the next Speaker, his successor.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!

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