Handbuilt wheels... the big thread
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Thanks a lot. OK, so wheel-building machines exist.
So the text you linked indeed says "hand built is better". This very text comes from a hand-build company. Fair enough.
The video shows the wheel building machine, chinese made, for mass production. After watching the video I see no reason to conclude hand building is any better than factory building.
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Machines do most of the work. I doubt they do a better job. Typically tension is derived as a function of torque applied to the interface of the spoke (typically called nipple). A manually built wheel would be measured directly on the spoke. Some wheels do not rely on tension though (some Mavic, but also others)
And then of course the all idea behind hand built is that you can build your wheel to match the rider… what is good for a 60kg hill climber might not be good for an 80 kg ultracyclist, which in turn might not work for a 120kg occasional rider, maybe on an e-bike.
All road bike wheels on the market are built for one type of rider only.
left the forum March 20230 -
Hand built *can* be better, at a cost. More time is spent getting them right, time costs.
They are also bespoke, you get to choose hubs and spoke count. There are also over-priced machine built.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I understand of course why hand built wheels (or hand built anything else) are more expensive. But on them being better, guys we have different opinions...
Plus, let's suppose we agree on them being better. How good a cyclist do I have to be to appreciate the difference? Is it like upgrading from Ultegra to Dura Ace? Or upgrading from a 1Kg frame to a 900g one...?
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I think you are looking at it the wrong way. Better in terms of performance, probably not… a better return for your money… possibly.
Fora are littered with people seeking to replace the irreplaceable… that Mavic carbon spoke no longer retailed and de facto unavailable can write off a Grand worth of wheels which could have thousands of miles left. Machine built wheels increasingly rely on proprietary components which quickly disappear from the shelves. Manufacturers are not interested in supporting a product beyond the legal warranty… 2 to 3-years if you are lucky. Online retailers take no responsibility over their sales, other the said warranty.
So yes, you can buy a bargain pair of Dura Ace wheels on sale… they might be fast and sweet, but if anything happens, whether it is your fault or not, you are on your own typically.
left the forum March 20230 -
For me using rim brakes it is more cost effective to replace rims and spokes on quality hubs than buy complete wheels every time. Add on they are made to my spoke count and as well, if not better, and it is a no-brainer.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Textbook, I bet the guy never found a replacement
https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussion/13120529/broken-carbon-spoke#latest
left the forum March 20230 -
Thanks a lot
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Of course he didn't, the spokes are not replaceable on that wheel.
I have hand built wheels with spokes that only one company makes. And machine built ones with sapim spokes.
Setting aside the technobollocks and generalisations, a machine isn't going to email to apologise for delays, tell you about his health problems or bore you about the supply chain these days.
But your wheel might go ping a few times the first time you ride it.
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Sorry I'm stupid but I still don't get it.
If manufacturers of hand-built wheels have market incentives for making replacement parts long term available, why doesn't this equally apply to manufacturers of large-scale machine built wheels? I understand there's brand value to keep up, sure this applies to both....?
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hand built are made with stock components, always available.
I don’t know why the cycling industry has been allowed to get away without providing spare parts for items costing often 4 figures, but it is the case for virtually every manufacturer and wheels are not the sole culprits.
If you owned a fine pair of Campagnolo Neutron, you would be out of luck… and that was already the case 10 years ago, when you could still buy them.
left the forum March 20230 -
It's not a matter of choice, by default the hand builders have to use parts that are available individually.
- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
they are replaceable, I think the other size could still be found somewhere at the time, guy was out of luck that he needed the size that had alread run dry in the market
left the forum March 20230 -
See above then. No different to my own handbuits. The spokes will be available for 4 or 5 years I expect.
Standard parts are sensible from some perspectives. I don't care whether a machine made them though. I'm not 5 ft 2 or 6 ft 8, so I'm not going to need bespoke tensions.
It is a marginal gains thing that is overstated by wheel builders and their customers.
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not all… is it ZED you dealt with?
yes, your spokes might be one of a kind, but you could use any other spoke as a replacement, if it came to that. With Mavic, you can’t. This is before we talk about 14 and 21 holes rims and other oddities that swamped the market over the years
left the forum March 20230 -
This is true for disc brake wheels. Less so for rim brake wheels which need constant replacement rims.
That choice is simple. Get quality hubs and replace the rims and spokes, or treat complete wheels as disposable items.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Yes, it was. Same issue with Hunt, Winspace and a few others though. I wouldn't be seduced by carbon spokes again. Not the point though. Could you honestly tell the difference between a machine built version and a hand built version made with the same parts?
I'll give you a clue - no.
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Correct. I used to get Mavic open pros and re-lace when I'd ground through the brake tracks. Then bike shops started to refuse to do it for me unless all the spokes were replaced "because spokes don't like to be detensioned and retensioned".
No point explaining that ship sailed when you first rode them, but it did make that model economically borderline unless I did it myself.
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no, of course not, even if I had some issues with the Superstar machine built wheels, as you remember, the tensions were all over the place and as a result local riders were experiencing issues, wheels going out of true, spokes breaking etc.
I think the issue is not much about who built the wheel, but what are they.
Your carbon titanium spokes do exist on the market, but if they didn’t, it wouldn’t matter, they have no special attachment, they can be replaced with a standard black steel straight pull spoke costing a couple of quid. You are not going to be left high and dry.
ZED and others have found a gap in the market with their sub. 1kg sets, which you cannot buy from manufacturers (maybe Roval alpiniste?), but thinking that you can get a reliable and lasting set in that weight bracket is wishful thinking.
Normally, this is not the reason you would choose hand built wheels and any marketing in that direction is misleading.
left the forum March 20230 -
True enough. They aren't the sub 1kg ones. 1250 or so I think. But if they are relaced and end up 1400g I doubt I'd mind. I just liked the carbon weave.
As far as I can tell, they are aluminium nipples. Which is rather the problem.
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Some more on the cost of hand built wheels....
How long time does a very good professional wheel builders need? Maybe 2hr per set? Can we say this would add no more than 2 x 100eur for his labor? Surely this on its own does not justify the huge price premium.
I know of course it's not for the time you're paying, but still, to hear "they cost more because you must pay for labor" sounds wrong.
Or am I wrong?
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Last time I had a set re-built onto my existing hubs the complete cost of rims, spokes, build and postage was £260.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
It's increasingly going to be the best option for rim brake wheels.
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What premium are talking about? Have you seen the price of a set of Mavic or Zipp?
left the forum March 20230 -
I would argue the case for wheels built out of stock components is even more compelling for disc wheels. Rims should last indefinitively, so do you really want to bin a wheel because the carbon spoke with the proprietary attachment is no longer available on the market?
at least in the past you could see that the spoke was broken… and maybe the rims were pretty much worn, so there was a case for binning the wheels and getting some new ones
left the forum March 20230 -
You are getting fixated on a pretty narrow subset of wheels. You can (or at least could) get spare spokes from Mavic for most wheels. There have been super high end wheels with less serviceability for some time - Lightweight, MadFiber, some of the older Reynolds carbon ones, some Mavics with embedded carbon spokes, Spinergy wheels, wheels with string spokes.
The difference now is that affordability is bringing more of these sorts of products into the range of some of us. This is fine if you know what you are buying.
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Hi does anyone use Kinlin Mx2W rims ? I have them on my winter bike and after my 1st ride on Saturday, i noticed silver/metal fragments on my drinking bottle (rim brakes) calipers brake blocks had the same fragments. the brake blocks are not that old (ultegra) i checked the blocks for stones and grit and they were ok. which leads me to think the rim is quite soft and not as good as say Mavic ?
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It is done.
Venn 40mm rims, Sapim CX rays, Bitex hubs. Oh yes. Ready end of March.
It's just a hill. Get over it.1 -
Does anyone have experience of using both carbon and aluminium disc wheelsets on a modern steel frame?
Im currently riding a rim braked Titanium frame with a pair of 36mm carbon wheels which marry up really nicely. I have a couple of other pairs of wheels,( Mavic Open Pros and Mavic Ksyrium Exalith ) which I use in the winter on both this bike and an old alloy Dolan. However, I'm looking at getting a new bike and am very interested in a steel frame, but I don't know which would ride better with it - carbon or aluminium wheels.
I'm 80 kilos, and most of my rides are solo up 100 miles although not so many of them recently! I'm not a club rider or racer and guess at 53 I'm leaning more towards endurance rather than performance riding.
I've had a couple of hand built wheelsets in the past (the Open Pros) and really like Hope hubs. Certainly having a hand built set of alloy rims combined with Hope Pro 5 hubs would be my preferred choice, but would they be the best option? Would a pair of carbon rims be a better option combined with a steel frame?
Thoughts?
Paul
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I've got steel bikes with carbon and aluminium wheels.
I like the look of the carbon, and there are potential weight and aero advantages.
In terms of ride quality, the aluminium may be more comfortable but ultimately it will come down more than anything to the specifics of the build and tyre choice.
If you fancy aluminium then absolutely no reason not to go for them, unless you're planning to run very wide tyres, in which case you might find wider carbon rims than aluminium ones.
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