Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

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  • paul_the_pedaller
    paul_the_pedaller Posts: 135
    wotnoshoeseh said:

    ...... I did see Ambrosio P20 rims - Spa have them on offer too :o , but are they any good?
    A pair is roughly half the price of one Archetype, so are they worth it? :*

    I built up a pair of P20s on Miche Primato 20 radial front, 24 2X rear and they were easy to build given my limited experience. Had a bit of a hop at the rim joint on both that took some getting out. They are a pig to get tyres from the reviews I read so I went tubeless to save the fuss at the roadside (hopefully!)
    Look good, no silly or excessive labelling. Got them from Spa, £20 each.
    Only did about 400 miles on them in the summer so can't comment on wear rates yet.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,805
    edited January 2021
    wotnoshoeseh said:

    wotnoshoeseh said:

    OK - In market for new handbuilt wheels (rim brake)....

    Thinking of Hope hubs RS4 or DT Swiss 350, with Shimano free hub, 28/32 build, most likely 3x front and rear, but have a preference for the Hope one.
    Unsure as to what rim to get.
    Thinking of the following options....
    Archetype
    DT Swiss R460
    Velocity A23
    Kinlin XR22

    Would also like recommendations on spoke please...

    Not fussed on having tubeless compatibility as I think it compromises tyre fit if tubed tyres are used.

    I am about to get moving on this set, but rim availability is quite poor at present. I did see Ambrosio P20 rims - Spa have them on offer too :o , but are they any good?
    A pair is roughly half the price of one Archetype, so are they worth it? :*
    Not the P20s, but I went from Excellence to the Archetype.
    I find the Archetype stay truer (although that could be due to Malcom's build) and longer lasting braking surface. We are talking a few years worth though.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,272
    When choosing a rim, these days my first concern is tyre fit... if you go tubeless, you need a rim that works well with tubeless tyres and equally, if you stay on clinchers, then you want something that is not a pig...
    Archetype fits the second description very well
    left the forum March 2023
  • hazy_day
    hazy_day Posts: 84
    Hi hoping some of the wheel builders can help me. Going to build a set of wheels during lock down and need help sizing spokes. I’m looking at Archetype rims 28 front and rear on DT Swiss 350 hubs. I’ve looked at various spoke calculators but find them a little confusing. Any help appreciated and recommendations for type of spokes to use.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,272
    hazy_day said:

    Hi hoping some of the wheel builders can help me. Going to build a set of wheels during lock down and need help sizing spokes. I’m looking at Archetype rims 28 front and rear on DT Swiss 350 hubs. I’ve looked at various spoke calculators but find them a little confusing. Any help appreciated and recommendations for type of spokes to use.

    What is that you find confusing? Measuring parts is part of the wheel building process
    left the forum March 2023
  • paul_the_pedaller
    paul_the_pedaller Posts: 135
    hazy_day said:

    Hi hoping some of the wheel builders can help me. Going to build a set of wheels during lock down and need help sizing spokes. I’m looking at Archetype rims 28 front and rear on DT Swiss 350 hubs. I’ve looked at various spoke calculators but find them a little confusing. Any help appreciated and recommendations for type of spokes to use.

    I'd recommend Roger Musson's book, you can download it from https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php

    £9 well spent in my opinion. All you need is in it.
  • hazy_day
    hazy_day Posts: 84
    Depending on the spoke calculator I use the results are different e.g.front on one calculator comes out at285 and another one 279. First foray into buildings set of wheels. That Roger Musson book might be the way to go.
  • paulbnix
    paulbnix Posts: 631
    I second the Roger Musson book.
    I bought it at the beginning and I’ve successfully built 6 sets of wheels.
    The book describes the whole process logically.
  • hazy_day
    hazy_day Posts: 84
    Thanks everyone for the replies. Think Roger Musson book is the way to go.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,272
    by memory, if you are looking at 2 cross, 279 mm is almost certainly wrong... 285 sounds more likely
    left the forum March 2023
  • wotnoshoeseh
    wotnoshoeseh Posts: 531
    https://leonard.io/edd/

    Selecting the hub and wheel from this calculator's database, this throws up 287....for front - didn't look at the rear.
    But you'd need to check the dimensions they are using versus your actual components (ERD and hub dimensions). HTH
  • kieran240885
    kieran240885 Posts: 36
    As most people say “buy hand built” I would like to know the benefits of buying a handbuilt set of wheels using dt Swiss hubs and r460 rims over a set of factory dt Swiss pr1600 spline 32s.
  • mrb123
    mrb123 Posts: 4,620
    kieran240885 said:

    As most people say “buy hand built” I would like to know the benefits of buying a handbuilt set of wheels using dt Swiss hubs and r460 rims over a set of factory dt Swiss pr1600 spline 32s.

    Well they are of course almost identical.

    You may prefer alu or brass nipples depending on whether you're after weight saving or durability.

    You may want to choose your spoke count, for example if you're heavy or likely to be carrying bags.

    It may just come down to price.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,805
    kieran240885 said:

    As most people say “buy hand built” I would like to know the benefits of buying a handbuilt set of wheels using dt Swiss hubs and r460 rims over a set of factory dt Swiss pr1600 spline 32s.

    Mainly applies to rim brake wheels with decent hubs. Rims wear, keep the hubs, replace and rebuild. May as well replace the spokes for the cost.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • paul_the_pedaller
    paul_the_pedaller Posts: 135
    Living in a hilly rural area where the roads are filthy for a large part of the winter the advantage of handbuilts is the ability to replace a rim rather than replace a factory set.
    And it's a good excuse to start to learn a new skill and buy some more kit.
  • kieran240885
    kieran240885 Posts: 36
    pblakeney said:

    kieran240885 said:

    As most people say “buy hand built” I would like to know the benefits of buying a handbuilt set of wheels using dt Swiss hubs and r460 rims over a set of factory dt Swiss pr1600 spline 32s.

    Mainly applies to rim brake wheels with decent hubs. Rims wear, keep the hubs, replace and rebuild. May as well replace the spokes for the cost.
    But surely for the cost of replacing the rims and spokes you could get another set of wheels. As far as I can tell most wheel builders use dt Swiss hubs and spokes or Sapim cx-ray spokes. Why not get the whole thing built by dt Swiss off the shelf. What exactly are you getting more for your money going handbuilt? Not trying to start an argument, genuinely interested.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,805
    edited February 2021
    DT Swiss 240 hubs cost £370-ish a pair. Why bin them just because the rims are worn out? Rims and spokes are relatively cheap.
    Choice is simple, cheap and disposable or quality and replaceable. It's your choice.
    I have disposables on the winter/commuting bike and handbuilts on the good bike.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,272
    kieran240885 said:

    pblakeney said:

    kieran240885 said:

    As most people say “buy hand built” I would like to know the benefits of buying a handbuilt set of wheels using dt Swiss hubs and r460 rims over a set of factory dt Swiss pr1600 spline 32s.

    Mainly applies to rim brake wheels with decent hubs. Rims wear, keep the hubs, replace and rebuild. May as well replace the spokes for the cost.
    But surely for the cost of replacing the rims and spokes you could get another set of wheels. As far as I can tell most wheel builders use dt Swiss hubs and spokes or Sapim cx-ray spokes. Why not get the whole thing built by dt Swiss off the shelf. What exactly are you getting more for your money going handbuilt? Not trying to start an argument, genuinely interested.
    You don't need to replace the spokes.
    I have a set of Hope hubs with DT 460 rims and Sapim D-light spokes. The rear rim in no. 3, the front in no. 2... the rear will soon need changing again. They have done overall 32,000 km.
    Now, if yu consider the rear rim the limiting factor, then I would be on the market for my 4th set of wheels, whereas so far I have only spent 120 pounds for 3 rims and I am going to buy another rear, so that's another 40 pounds.
    I have also replaced the rear spokes once, so that's another 20 quid...
    How does that compare with buying 3 extra sets of wheels?
    left the forum March 2023
  • paulbnix
    paulbnix Posts: 631
    My Miche Primato hubs and Sapim race spokes and nipples are now on their third set of rims.

    I think I’ll replace the nipples when a new rim beckons as tensioning was a bit notchy last time.

    Mind you the hubs have had new bearings and a freehub.
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,332
    edited February 2021
    As well as the obvious cost considerations above there's not generating more rubbish to throw away. Better to repair than replace
    Kinesis Pro6
    Marin Nail Trail
    Cotic Solaris
  • kieran240885
    kieran240885 Posts: 36
    Like I said, I wasn’t trying to be hostile. Just trying to learn more about hand built as whenever you ask about wheel set advice on these forums the general consensus is “don’t bother, buy handbuilt.”
    What you’re saying makes sense. I was unaware how long a hub lasted compared to rims wearing.
    Could a wheel builder use your existing dt Swiss hub to lace up to a new rim if you bought some factory dt Swiss wheels?
    Is longevity the main benefit or is there a performance gain as well?
    I’ve been looking at dt Swiss pr 1600 spline 32s rim brake. They come with dt Swiss straight pull aero spokes laced to a dt Swiss 350 ratchet drive hub. On sale for £400 at mo. Could I get a lot better for my money going hand built for a similar price point?
  • mrb123
    mrb123 Posts: 4,620
    Is there any reason the hubs on DT Swiss factory built wheels can't be re-used other than possibly some odd spoke counts?
  • kieran240885
    kieran240885 Posts: 36
    mrb123 said:

    Is there any reason the hubs on DT Swiss factory built wheels can't be re-used other than possibly some odd spoke counts?

    350 hubs are 20 spoke front, 24 rear. Is this odd?
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,332
    Sorry, didn't think you were being hostile. Hope the response didn't come out as such.
    Some factory built wheels have strange spokes or arrangements that make them harder to rebuild and repair, not sure about those particular wheels.
    Kinesis Pro6
    Marin Nail Trail
    Cotic Solaris
  • kieran240885
    kieran240885 Posts: 36
    veronese68 said:

    Sorry, didn't think you were being hostile. Hope the response didn't come out as such.
    Some factory built wheels have strange spokes or arrangements that make them harder to rebuild and repair, not sure about those particular wheels.

    No, it’s all good. I just know it can be quite a divisive topic where passions and loyalty runs high. Those 350 hubs are 20 front 24 rear. Is that odd? I’ve never really looked into handbuilt properly. I just assumed as most builders use dt Swiss parts then the factory wheels must be a better proposition than other brands and the dt Swiss parts interchangeable.
  • mrb123
    mrb123 Posts: 4,620
    kieran240885 said:

    mrb123 said:

    Is there any reason the hubs on DT Swiss factory built wheels can't be re-used other than possibly some odd spoke counts?

    350 hubs are 20 spoke front, 24 rear. Is this odd?
    No, it's not odd at all. Some factory wheels do have unusual spoke counts which would make it difficult/impossible to source a new rim, but not those by the sound of it.
  • thecycleclinic
    thecycleclinic Posts: 395
    Wrong. Dt swiss parts are not that interchangeable. Dt swiss made hubs for other brands are not the same hubs always as the hubs you can buy.

    Also a wheel builder can often build a wheelset thats better suited to the rider than many factory offering.

    Remember a major wheel brand make wheels that sell. They only need to be good enough but designed with the feature that help a sale. Many wheelbuilders instead build practical wheels.

    Why do you think most wheel builders use dt swiss parts. I dont. I hardly ever use dt swiss parts. I still.manage to build good wheels and it quite easy to get hubs made (i have my own designs) which are even more reliable than 350 or 240 hubs.

    Dt swiss hubs from there wheels are mostly straight pull and are made for spokes with proprietary heads which mean they cant be reused easily. One would have to squash a spoke head by the right ammount to get a good fit in the hub. Also with straight pull builds you have to know the spoke hole centre to hub flange centreline offset. This is a dimension that varies from hub to hub and no one seems to understand it and yet it critical to calculating SP hub spoke length accurately. You cant measure this dimension. The hub maker has to state it. Most don't.

    Factory wheels are therefore mostly disposable. It is not a commercial proposition to resuse the hubs. A home builder might be able to but often bodging is required and or lots of time.


    www.thecycleclinic.co.uk
  • kieran240885
    kieran240885 Posts: 36
    thecycleclinic said:

    Wrong. Dt swiss parts are not that interchangeable. Dt swiss made hubs for other brands are not the same hubs always as the hubs you can buy.

    Also a wheel builder can often build a wheelset thats better suited to the rider than many factory offering.

    Remember a major wheel brand make wheels that sell. They only need to be good enough but designed with the feature that help a sale. Many wheelbuilders instead build practical wheels.

    Why do you think most wheel builders use dt swiss parts. I dont. I hardly ever use dt swiss parts. I still.manage to build good wheels and it quite easy to get hubs made (i have my own designs) which are even more reliable than 350 or 240 hubs.

    Dt swiss hubs from there wheels are mostly straight pull and are made for spokes with proprietary heads which mean they cant be reused easily. One would have to squash a spoke head by the right ammount to get a good fit in the hub. Also with straight pull builds you have to know the spoke hole centre to hub flange centreline offset. This is a dimension that varies from hub to hub and no one seems to understand it and yet it critical to calculating SP hub spoke length accurately. You cant measure this dimension. The hub maker has to state it. Most don't.

    Factory wheels are therefore mostly disposable. It is not a commercial proposition to resuse the hubs. A home builder might be able to but often bodging is required and or lots of time.


    Thanks for the great feedback. Is that why the dt Swiss hubs you do see used by wheel builders as options are j bend rather than straight pull? Maybe saying most builders use dt Swiss was wrong, but certainly the few I have looked into list it as a top option. Usually the 340s.
    I suppose a good chat with a wheel builder such as yourself would be beneficial
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,272
    At some point the industry realised that the weak point in a spoke is the elbow and so they began manufacturing wheels with elbow-less (straight pull) spokes. The result is that spokes break anyway. Fatigue will hit the spoke whether it has an elbow or it doesn't. The sheer pain of measuring and building with non J-bend spokes make them completely unsuitable for bespoke construction and only suitable for mass manufacturing, where you only use one size.
    left the forum March 2023
  • kieran240885
    kieran240885 Posts: 36
    ugo.santalucia said:

    At some point the industry realised that the weak point in a spoke is the elbow and so they began manufacturing wheels with elbow-less (straight pull) spokes. The result is that spokes break anyway. Fatigue will hit the spoke whether it has an elbow or it doesn't. The sheer pain of measuring and building with non J-bend spokes make them completely unsuitable for bespoke construction and only suitable for mass manufacturing, where you only use one size.

    Thanks. That’s interesting to hear. I’m learning a lot from this thread. Would you recommend factory wheels with straight pull over j bend? Which factory brands are good over the bad? I get the impression Malcolm isn’t a fan of DT Swiss but they seem to be a popular option. I looked at hunt and scribe but wasn’t sure who makes the rims and hubs. I know it’s not all about big names but I like to know what’s what.


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