Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

ugo.santalucia

Any oil... use a cotton swab to lubricate the inside part of the hole, rather than the nipple itself. Also, lightly lubricate the threads of the spokes with some oil soaked cotton

steveatbath

Would a £1200 50mm uk handbuilt on Chris king hubs be better than the equivalent £1200 50mm bora ones?

ugo.santalucia

steveatbath wrote:

Would a £1200 50mm uk handbuilt on Chris king hubs be better than the equivalent £1200 50mm bora ones?

Better in which way?

steveatbath

ugo.santalucia wrote:

steveatbath wrote:

Would a £1200 50mm uk handbuilt on Chris king hubs be better than the equivalent £1200 50mm bora ones?

Better in which way?

Ok I’ll re-phrase that as what would the main differences be between the branded wheels and the non branded ones.. similar weight, similar price, same profile

ugo.santalucia

steveatbath wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

steveatbath wrote:

Would a £1200 50mm uk handbuilt on Chris king hubs be better than the equivalent £1200 50mm bora ones?

Better in which way?

Ok I’ll re-phrase that as what would the main differences be between the branded wheels and the non branded ones.. similar weight, similar price, same profile

The hand built ones will be easier to fix should anything happen...

sopworth

Advice please…..
I've been building my first wheel recently. I've used a DT swiss 350 front disc hub with DT competition d/b 2-1.8 spokes on a Velocity major tom rim - with the purpose of building a pair for CX.
I've used Roger Musson's pdf book as my guide, but I'm at a point that I can/don't want to move beyond.
Using a x-tools spoken tension meter (I didn't want to use one but bought one due to having tension fear) I've measures the tension on each spoke:
On the disc side (left hand side of front hub), the readings are 50 - 53 which equates to 119 - 145kg. Whilst on the right hand side of the hub the readings are 48-50 which equates to 89 - 110 kg.
Am I right in thinking there disc side of the hub will attract the most tension in the spokes? If so, is my split looking ok? Velocity suggest the rim should be tensioned to 110 - 130 kg - does this mean i'm under tensioned on the right side? Are those 4 spokes on the disc side that are above 130kg going to cause damage?
The wheel is almost true. Radially, there are points where it's out but I'm struggling to adjust (minor, minor adjustments) and laterally it's almost there.
Any help is much appreciated. Don't want to glue a tub on a rim that may give way.
Thanks.

timothyw

On a front wheel the disc side will be higher tension, on a rear the drive side will still be higher.

To be on the safe side, and assuming your meter is accurate, no spoke tensions should exceed 130kg.

Certainly on the basis that you haven't calibrated your meter or cross checked against another known good wheel, I'd suggest reducing the tension a bit to be on the safe side.

It might be fine as is, or it might be that your rim will start cracking at the nipple holes.

sopworth

Ok, but if I take tension of all spokes in order to get the disc side within limits, the other side will be well below what Velocity suggest for the rim. Would that not be an issues?
Could I have made this wheel incorrectly?

timothyw

Yeah, it'll be fine. The recommendations apply to the higher tension side.

cycleclinic

The tension variation is too large. Un even tension leads to spoke failure sooner. Tension that high above 1300N can lead to rim failure.

however park tool gauges need calibrating to be any use at know the tension
They are useful in knowing the amount of tension variation.

+/-5% is what you should aim for.

ugo.santalucia

Tension per side is not a good way to judge how much you need. I would say average tension (L + R) /2 is a better way.

Aim for an average of 900-1000 N, which depending on the hub can be 600/1200 or 750/1050 minimum

edward.s

My old x-tools tension meter over read horrifically compared to the Park one. I'd guess yours might be the same. I tried both on a set of wheels built by a decent wheel builder and the Park meter gave figures that 'made sense' and the X-tools meter though all the spokes were way to tight.

You can calibrate the meter yourself but it takes a bit of doing with hanging weights etc.

cycleclinic

Im confused ugo. your method does not tell you the range of acceptable tension just the average tension on the wheel.
for 1200N DS I use a rnage of 1150N to 1250N tighter if I can get it. You cant get that with a park guage it simply not senstive enough.

dangardner27

Q for the wheel builders please or anyone with Royce hubs....Having a nightmare with my Archetypes on Royce Hubs (Venus rear)...

1. Pawl noise is too loud - grease injection kit solves it for about 5 miles, when it should quieten things down for several hundred miles...Is there anything I can do to get the grease to stay in the hub? It exits from behind the cassette and creates a horrid PTFE grease gunk between the hub and on the outside of the largest cassette sprocket....Feels like a seal is broken or something needs tightening. I've sent it back to Cliff once and he couldn't find a problem.

2. Pinging noise from wheels / spokes (it is the wheels as put on a pair of old Ksyriums and everything is silenced) - could this be spokes where they contact each other?

Wheels are true and have covered approx 3000 miles. I love the robustness but not the noises!! Help!!

cycleclinic

The one noisey royce hub that came to me had signs of pawl wear and ratchet ring wear. Cliff did not believe so I asked to make a tool to remove the ratchet ring and send me a new ring and pawls. I was right the hub was quiet after that. It could just be wrong pawls.

If grease is escaping then you putting too much in but that aside there is a rubber seal ring that sits over the ratchet ring. That maybe not there or needs replacing. Not sure without seeing it.

Yes the spokes are touching other on those mavic. It's the down side of not interfacing spokes.

pblakeney

Malcolm seems to have answered it but I have a quick question as I have Royce hubs.
Define loud? I was under the impression that the Royce freewheel was supposed to be loud.
Some freewheels are never silent.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

Im confused ugo. your method does not tell you the range of acceptable tension just the average tension on the wheel.
for 1200N DS I use a rnage of 1150N to 1250N tighter if I can get it. You cant get that with a park guage it simply not senstive enough.

What I am saying is that you don't have to default to 1300 N on the drive side... you do if the hub has a 2:1 tension ratio, but if it's closer to 1, then you can do with less tension.
In a non dished wheel, I never load more than 1000 N, it's simply unnecessary

dangardner27

PBlakeney wrote:

Malcolm seems to have answered it but I have a quick question as I have Royce hubs.
Define loud? I was under the impression that the Royce freewheel was supposed to be loud.
Some freewheels are never silent.

Like really loud!! For the 1st 500 miles I reckon they stayed relatively quiet. As I say, now after 5 miles post injection, they make so much noise that pedestrians turn round to see whats coming if I'm eg. freewheeling through a town.

Malcolm thank you for your advice, would I be better to send the wheel to you to have a look or back to Cliff again?

pblakeney

Could be okay. I like not having to use a bell, simply stop pedalling.
Google “free hub sound comparison” for a YouTube video for examples. My Royce’s sound similar to the Tune Mag in the video.

dangardner27

Mine sound like the Extralite Hyper on this video... :shock:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z018IeCZO24

cycleclinic

I have no idea if the this hub is too loud or not. Given you font know what's wrong if anything you have to some one else look at it. You need to compare with someone else who has a Royce hub.i can hear my Royce hub when freewheeling and the extra grease does not keep it quiet for long. That's why I use a small blob of rock n roll super slick grease on the ratchet after I have changed bearings. I then leave it alone until the bearings need doing again.

Ugo tubeless ready wheels need to be built to 1300n ds tension. The reason being imwhen a tubeless tyre is fitted tension is lost. A mavic open pro ust rim built onto miche hubs has 1275N tension before a tubeless tyres is fitted and 480N NDS after the DS tension is 1050N and approx 400N NDS.

With an asymmetric rim that improves. 2:1 lacing therefore helps but more than 1000N is still needed. I build tubeless ready front wheels to 1100N now. I ha e one 2:1 wheel here. The BORG26. Tension before tyres was 1275N DS and 1185N NDS. After a tubeless tyre is mounted without air as it flat currently, it has 980N to 1080N DS tension and average 950N NDS. There a flat spot in this wheel which is why I am not using it. However that 250N lost on the DS. So it has the tension of a non tubeless front wheel now.

Its non tubeless wheels or tubular rims where I can build to 900N fron and 1100N to 1200N DS rear. Tubular track wheels can be built to 1100N rear even 1000N is fine.

That's my take anyway.

The original issue was tension variation though not how much tension there was.

pblakeney

dangardner27 wrote:

Mine sound like the Extralite Hyper on this video... :shock:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z018IeCZO24

Well, mine is 6 years old and packed with grease so maybe more worn and comparable. Are you using the Royce greasing kit rods?

dangardner27

Yep sure am PBlakeney and as per the Royce instructions....Using the Superlube PTFE that came with the kit. Maybe the grease is too thin?

pblakeney

dangardner27 wrote:

Yep sure am PBlakeney and as per the Royce instructions....Using the Superlube PTFE that came with the kit. Maybe the grease is too thin?

Doubt it. Seems thick enough to me. I don’t think it’s anything to worry about. I’d be more concerned if it went silent.

term1te

I'm thinking of building a set of wheels to be used in some hill climb events (in the mountains, 300 - 1000 m of climbing). I quite fancy some colourful Tune Mag 170/Mig 70 hubs, but seem to remember a few negative comments on here about them. The other option would be the slightly heavier DT Swiss 240s. Is the view of the forum still that the DT Swiss 240s are better as they can be more easily serviced, etc.? Or, am I wasting my money on bling, and that the lightweight Bitex or Novatec hubs are just as good? I'd be looking at rim brakes and probably 20 spokes radial up front and 24 two cross at the back.

ugo.santalucia

Term1te wrote:

I'm thinking of building a set of wheels to be used in some hill climb events (in the mountains, 300 - 1000 m of climbing). I quite fancy some colourful Tune Mag 170/Mig 70 hubs, but seem to remember a few negative comments on here about them. The other option would be the slightly heavier DT Swiss 240s. Is the view of the forum still that the DT Swiss 240s are better as they can be more easily serviced, etc.? Or, am I wasting my money on bling, and that the lightweight Bitex or Novatec hubs are just as good? I'd be looking at rim brakes and probably 20 spokes radial up front and 24 two cross at the back.

Hill climbs = shallow rims and shallow rims don't go with DT 240s.
To be honest, given the low mileage, I would go for a pair of Cheap Taiwanese light hubs, Novatec or Bitex

term1te

ugo.santalucia wrote:

shallow rims don't go with DT 240s.

Out of interest, why not?

ugo.santalucia

Term1te wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

shallow rims don't go with DT 240s.

Out of interest, why not?

It's been discussed a million times in this thread. The problem is that DT 240 has a very narrow flange opening, something like 48 mm, against a 56 mm which is the golden standard for dished wheels hub.
In practice, the bracing angles of your wheel will be very narrow and the wheel very weak. More here

https://whosatthewheel.com/2017/11/12/t ... -dynamics/

dangardner27

PBlakeney wrote:

dangardner27 wrote:

Yep sure am PBlakeney and as per the Royce instructions....Using the Superlube PTFE that came with the kit. Maybe the grease is too thin?

Doubt it. Seems thick enough to me. I don’t think it’s anything to worry about. I’d be more concerned if it went silent.

I'll limit the freewheeling then - you're probably right. I'll try to learn to like the racket!!

cycleclinic

A cheap Bitex hub is the same weight as a dt swiss 240. 240 hubs are not great.

Ugo right dont bother with them. If you really want light and colourful then carbon ti hubs are your friend but they will empty your wallet. So will tune hubs carbon ti hubs are lighter and easier to.maintain.

Still the Bitex raf/rar12 is 295g and £300 less than 240s. That buys you an awful lot of bearings.