Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

drlodge

32H Open Pros are "old style" but solid wheels, the kind of thing Harry Rowland builds. As above, look at Malcolm's Kinlin rimmed wheels which are more "modern" with wider rims and more suited I'd say to road bikes of today. 28 rear with 20/24 front is plenty if built properly with well chosen components.

cycleclinic

TimothyW. I have a 24H triplet hub now. It seems fine. To get a proper triplet hub with the correct geometry I have had to get one made. The rim that seems to work is the Kinlin XR26RT. Even though it centre drilled with Sapim HM nipple washer the spoke dont bend at the nipple any more than with a conventional hub. I think this is the only off the shelf rim that actually works for 2:1 lacing. The 31Rt might be good too but my gut tell me there will be more of a bend. Since I build 24 spoke wheels have no issues, 24 spokes does seem to be enough with the right rim/hub/spoke combination.

The 2:1 hub I have, the XR26T rim does need a stiff spoke like a sapim force or CX sprint or CX force for it to be reliable but reliable it seems to be. tension balance is 93% with the offset rim and 17.4mm/49mm flange spacing.
2:1 lacing does not build a superior wheel unless the hub geometry is like above. Using a conventional 32H hub as many use your rear wheel is less stiff (laterally) and the rim is more easily twisted than if conventional 1:1 lacing is used with a 24H hub.

2:1 lacing is not something to be bodged. done right it actually meean higher radial stiffness, slightly higher lateral stiffness and it does seem to create a wheel that feels good. It turns out that tension balance is related to radial stiffness. There a PHD on this now. light bedtime reading. Bodge it and you get an inferior wheel and thats why it has a bad rep.

timothyw

Funnily enough I'd come to the same conclusion about the XR26 - bought one from superstar and noticed that the spoke holes were very central, although that was an offset rim so not one you'd triplet lace - good to know the symmetric ones are similar.

It's a bit redundant though because Halo sell a range of rebranded Kinlin rims with 16/8 drilling anyway - eg the Devaura appears to be the XR31T - https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Halo-Devaura-7 ... 102069.htm

Anyhow, I saw that they were selling some Halo Mercury rims 16/8 for not a lot and grabbed a couple so have built up a wheel cheap to see how it goes (with novatec hub and alpine 3 spokes) - so far so good after 100 miles or so, early days yet obviously.

Do you have a picture/can you describe a bit more how the triplet hub is better?

Obviously in an ideal world the surplus holes wouldn't be there on the non drive side, but with the spokes crossed it built up easily enough and no obvious issues in use.

cycleclinic

I lace 2:1 with the asymmetric rims so your wrong there. If you have a proper 2:1 hub you use an asymmetric rim. Campagnolo understand this trick as well.

I said to use the xt26rt which is the asymmetric rim. Details.

TimothyW with all respect your first line means you dont understand 2:1 lacing. I gave the reason why with the flange spacing. If you missed that then you dont get how flange spacing influence wheel dynamics/how or responds to load or are making generalisations that dont dont hold true.

The halo rim would not suit my hub. Proper 2:1 use a hub like mine need a asymmetric rim. You cannot drill the asymmetric rim for 16/8 lacing so deep asymmetric rims are out. You have to then use a centre drilled rim that does not cause bends at the nipple.. The bitex hub may have 2:1 drilling but does not have 2:1 geometry and therefore builds an laterally less stiff wheel than the standard hub. Utterly pointless.

So the rim I am using is the correct one.

There is plenty of info on my site. Use your Google foo.

You have used a 32h hub for 2:1 lacing while that can work there is a difference between building an optimal wheel and one that just works well enough. You may have built one that works well enough but is not optimal. Therefore you dont actually know what 2:1 lacing can really do. In my view you would have a superior wheel with a 24h hub laced conventionally compared to what you have built. The mistake people make is maximise tension balance at the expense of lateral stifness. TimothyW you have fallen into that trap although you may never realise as you may never get a spoke failure.

ugo.santalucia

2:1 lacing seems the solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

I used to build 24 H and 28 H rear wheels that didn't give users any problem, spoke life was always well in excess of rim life and they did hold true indefinitely, so why exactly we need to go through all that hassle I am not sure....

Is it a case of search for perfection when perfection is not required?

cycleclinic

It does solve some problems ugo. While I can build reliable 24 spoke wheels with conventional hub I have to over build them with a deep rim and heavy spokes to ensure the wheel is latterally and radially stiff enough that once a tubeless tyre is fitted there is enough spoke tension so high loads cant slacken spokes.

With 2:1 lacing the tensions are more balanced so the rim used does not have to so tank like to still have a wheel that stable when placed under load.
You can also end up with a latterally stiffer wheel but a few % as the NDS flange is pushed far out to the left. The one I have just built with a 55mm deep rim has tensions 1275N DS and 980N NDS using a symmetric rim.
With the asymmetric kinlin XR26T tension are 1275N DS and 1180N NDS. I leave the tension that high because once a tubeless tyre is fitted the tension drop quite a bit.

The wheel also just feel right.

Also the tension imblance on a rim actually decreases radial stiffnes (an lateral stiffness by a smaller ammount) so 2:1 lacing actually improves the whee. There is a relationship between tenion and radial/lateral stiffness but the tension imblance is more important. In additon the tension imbalance is one reason why I think rims crack so reduceing that could reduce that risk.

There is a thesis wirtten by a chap called Matt Ford that goes into all of this in great detail. The conclusions do explain why 2:1 lacing works. I always knew it did but could never really explain why.

Still there nothing wrong with conventional 1:1 lacing.

cycleclinic

Here some light reading.

https://github.com/dashdotrobot/phd-the ... _v1.0.pdfl

timothyw

Malcolm, so basically your argument is that triplet lacing should only be done with hubs that push the non-drive flange out considerably wider than usual?

Which in turn drops the non drive tension further thus favouring the use of an offset rim against a symmetrical one. (Indeed, perhaps requiring it with centre drilled rims to avoid extreme nipple angle).

My google-fu is fine, but your blog post here doesn't use the word triplet anywhere (or diametric for that matter, which is how Token refer to their wheels using the 2:1/triplet lacing pattern) - https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/blogs/news ... -1-testing - although it does seem to explain your thinking.

thecycleclinic wrote:

The halo rim would not suit my hub. Proper 2:1 use a hub like mine need a asymmetric rim. You cannot drill the asymmetric rim for 16/8 lacing so deep asymmetric rims are out. You have to then use a centre drilled rim that does not cause bends at the nipple..

You might want to reread what you are saying here because it appears to be nonsense - you are saying that a (Halo) rim with angled drilling is going to be less suitable for a 2:1 build than one with center drilled holes? Nope. If the nipples can sit correctly with center drilled holes, they will be even better with ones at an angle, even after you factor in 3mm of offset (which only affects bracing angle by perhaps half a degree in any case).

Further, I'd say that 'needing' an asymmetric rim is rather strong when you're still getting non drive spokes at 80% of drive tension on a symmetric rim with your hubs. You perhaps need an offset rim with centre drilled spoke holes, but that's another argument.

thecycleclinic wrote:

The bitex hub may have 2:1 drilling but does not have 2:1 geometry and therefore builds an laterally less stiff wheel than the standard hub. Utterly pointless.

Well, perhaps not pointless if the somewhat reduced drive side tension leads to a reduced chance of spoke bed failure on the rim, something you specifically refer to in your blog post. This is of interest to me as I've had to discard two kinlin builds due to their rim's failing on the drive side spoke holes.

thecycleclinic wrote:

You have used a 32h hub for 2:1 lacing while that can work there is a difference between building an optimal wheel and one that just works well enough. You may have built one that works well enough but is not optimal. Therefore you dont actually know what 2:1 lacing can really do. In my view you would have a superior wheel with a 24h hub laced conventionally compared to what you have built. The mistake people make is maximise tension balance at the expense of lateral stifness. TimothyW you have fallen into that trap although you may never realise as you may never get a spoke failure.

Time will tell. One big advantage that I have (in the most literal terms) is that I am a serial killer of wheels. This means that I can build a selection of wheels, and if I use them on the commute long enough then they will fail. How long that takes, and how they fail, is interesting to me (and gives me an excuse to build more wheels, which I enjoy...)

I've had all sorts this year - rim failure, hub flange failure on a 36 spoke build, and more traditional repeated drive side spoke failure.

This 2:1 build is basically a side project alongside a more conventional rebuild with a DT rr511 replacing a kinlin, and a disc wheel rebuilt with alpine 3 spokes in place of comps... and a couple of others I won't even get into.

The correct link for that thesis is here, incidentally, you put an extra l on the end:
https://github.com/dashdotrobot/phd-the ... s_v1.0.pdf

cycleclinic

Triplet bunches the spokes into groups of 3 like g3 lacing. 2:1 is what you and I have done .

That's how i am defining it .

Asymmetric rim better defines the type of rim than offset. Offset will refer to the spoke offset from the centre. For kinlin that's 3mm. With the halo 16/8 rim tension balance would be 73%. So given the xr26rt rim allows the spokes to enter the nipples straight then this is the right rim. The xr31rt or rt cannot be made to work as well. I have talked to kinlin about this. For my hub it's the wrong rim. I have tried.
The xr26rt rim is asymmetric with a 3mm offset and central.

Yes 2:1 needs the nds flange pushed out otherwise your lateral wheel stiffnes is lower. More than 50% of the stiffness imparted by the spokes comes from the nds due to the larger bracing angle. Cut the number of nds spokes though and you have a problem. With std hub geometry and 2:1 lacing brake rub is likely to be more of an issue.

Campag understand this. The tipping is around 46mm from centre. That's were with 2:1 lacing you get the same lateral stiffness as you would with say a shimano dura ace 9000 hub.
However an asymmetric rim is required then to equalise spoke tensions. My hub pushes the flange out further to 49mm but with a 3mm asymmetric rim you get a 93% tension balance. With a symmetric rim you get 73% which is good enough bit if you can do better then why not. Campagnolo is asymmetric rims in there wheels because there hubs have the nds flange 45 or 46mm from centre. I think campagnolo have done the same sums I have.

My experience tells me improving tension balance at the expense of lateral stiffness is a mistake. You can trade the two to some extend and be fine. Problems start when you relentlessly focus on one forgetting about the other.

My blog post refer to the cause of rim failure. It's not tension per say but tension imbalance. Reducing the tension is not actually what you should do with 2:1 lacing. The tension you use in a wheel actually depends on the buckling tension of the rim. There is no gain to dropping the tension if the tension is already optimal based on the rims buckling tension. The more even tension tension balance should prevent rim failures.
Your rim failures may be the result of over tensioning. that is sometimes done by some for heavier rider or for wheel killers. It is also the wrong approach. The fact you have had a hub flange failure indicates this. If your getting spoke failures the solution is not more tension but a stiffer wheel to reduces the length changes the spoke experience when loaded.

Rear wheel tension for modern rims should be around 1200N DS whether conventionally or 2:1 laced.

Campagnolo, fulcrum and shimano all use 2:1 lacing with hub geometries similar to mine. I have not reinvented the wheel, neither have these other brands it well worn physics.

kingstonian

davetex wrote:

Can anyone recommend some 50mm ish carbon rims? Keen to build up a pair of deeper wheels for crits

I've had a set from DCR for a year now, can't fault them at all. Fast, have had no issues whatsoever with crosswinds despite a few ridiculously windy rides in Holland and Cambridgeshire !!! They do both rim and disk brake, so cover either angle.

bobones

What's the story with these nipples? Is this par for course with aluminium or is there some other force at work?

They came from 3 year old Chinese carbon wheels that don't see a lot of rain, but they are washed with TFR solution and other car washing detergents.

The head sheared off one on a ride, which I replaced, but when the same happened a few weeks later I thought I'd better check them all. Lots of white powdery lumps shook out of the rims and a good few nipples broke when I loosened them. The spokes themselves are in perfect condition.

I am going to replace these with Sapim aluminium nipples, but I was reading about possible galvanic reaction between carbon, steel and aluminium so perhaps better to use brass?

timothyw

Yeah, if you don't want to do it again in another three years use brass.

ugo.santalucia

pretty much all alloy nipples end up like that if you actually use the wheels. Get brass

cycleclinic

Washers help alot with carbon rims. Alloy nipples and carbon rims will set up a nice circuit which the steel washer reduces due to the lower difference in chemical reactivity between steel and aluminium.

The anodising on sapim nipples does appear to be more consistent than others too. In addition the use of thread lick on the spokes reduces corrosion.

Alloy nipples also shear when the spokes are too short. With alloy nipples the spikes must come to the tip of the nipple driver flats or better still to the top of the nipple. Wheels that flex show more nipple failures too so alloy nipples are best used with stiff wheels.

More than 50%of my wheels use alloy nipples and yet I manage to avoid failures. The number of failures is very small running at under 1% of wheels. There is nothing wro g with alloy nipples, they just have to be used correctly.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

More than 50%of my wheels use alloy nipples and yet I manage to avoid failures. The number of failures is very small running at under 1% of wheels. There is nothing wro g with alloy nipples, they just have to be used correctly.

It's a matter of where you draw the line. For me 1% is a lot... for anything that is less than 5 years old, I would like that number to be zero.
Bear in mind that 1% is probably more like 10 or 20% among those who actually ride their bike regularly, rather than buying a pair of wheels to do 300 miles per year when it's sunny.
In my experience, most of those who buy a bespoke set of wheels have more than one bike and more than one pair of wheels per bike.
I have one bike (plus a Brompton) with one set of wheels, can't allow myself nonsense like alloy nipples, soft and chewy freehubs & co.

cycleclinic

I said less than 1%. Maybe one or two cases a year with wheels that are getting a bit anyway. Out of a few hundred wheelsets per year that's a low failure rate. So your estimation ugo is way off.

davetex

Different application, but with fixings on carbon dinghy spars we'd always use a paste to prevent galvanic corrosion, this stuff https://www.amazon.co.uk/Duralac-Anti-C ... B00LB6EUEO

Not sure how practical it'd be on a carbon rim.

fstrownyver

I would enjoy a black colour scheme libros gratis
with some red thrown in. What are my choices? My bike is matt black (boring) But I did think about adding the mavic ksyrium sl's on the bike at first but as stated wanted something new. (I am a bike tart. I admit it )

ugo.santalucia

fstrownyver wrote:

I would enjoy a black colour scheme with some red thrown in. What are my choices? My bike is matt black (boring) But I did think about adding the mavic ksyrium sl's on the bike at first but as stated wanted something new. (I am a bike tart. I admit it )

Hope hubs in red with black spokes and rims? Some would even build with red anodised nipples, but personally I wouldn't bother

timothyw

Halo offer their rims in a few different colours, as mentioned upthread I believe them to be rebranded Kinlin (eg Devaura is the XR31t)

https://www.halowheels.com/category/components/rims/

cycleclinic

only 20F and 24 16:8 rear though. I happen to have triplet hubs as well but in black.

/it will be a gloss red too and you may not like that. Remember red hubs are not to everyone tastes and will make your wheel hard to sell on.

davetex

So first go at building a front disc wheel, possibly dumb questions, is there an advantage to using an asymmetric rim on the front when using discs? Presumably it would help even out the tension caused by the different in flange spacing from the disc tabs.

Michael432000

Hi.

Looking for wheels for my lovely old Colnago C40. Been let down by two companies who took my money but could not provide the Ambosio Excellight rims I wanted. Though I still think I can get them in 28 hole front and rear. Apparently these rims are good quality, light, and they fit the period.

Getting fed up with all the aggravation. How about just settling for some Campag Neutrons ready made? Or any other rim and spoke count suggestions?

I’m 64kg ex-racer.

Thank you.

timothyw

davetex wrote:

So first go at building a front disc wheel, possibly dumb questions, is there an advantage to using an asymmetric rim on the front when using discs? Presumably it would help even out the tension caused by the different in flange spacing from the disc tabs.

Tension balance is much better on front disks than it is on most rears nowadays (off the top of my head I think the tension is something close to 70% ie then less tense side is at 70% of the tension of the other side, for rears this is often below 50% on the non drive side)

So it is fine to use asymmetric rims but I wouldn't say there was any advantage to it really, just use whatever you have or can get....

craigus89

I'm thinking of doing a first wheel build soon for a fixie project and I'm looking for reccomendations on materials. It's only a fixie for the odd commute and as a general hack, but it seems like a good opportunity for an attempt at a first build.

Being for a fixie I need to use robust bits, the only thing I think I've decided is for Miche Primato hubs - cheaper reccomendations are welcome though. I want to keep the cost as low as I can, but at the same time don't want to skimp unneccesarily. I could pick up a wheelset off Wiggle for £130 odd quid, so if I could keep the cost to £150 for the bits that would be ideal, this may be ambitious though as I will need nipples, washers etc too, and a couple of tools.

I need to do some more reading, I've got Roger Musson's book already.

pblakeney

Michael432000 wrote:

Hi.

Looking for wheels for my lovely old Colnago C40. Been let down by two companies who took my money but could not provide the Ambosio Excellight rims I wanted. Though I still think I can get them in 28 hole front and rear. Apparently these rims are good quality, light, and they fit the period.

Getting fed up with all the aggravation. How about just settling for some Campag Neutrons ready made? Or any other rim and spoke count suggestions?

I’m 64kg ex-racer.

Thank you.

I went from Ambrossio Excellence to H Son Plus Archetype in silver for my Master and must say that I am a happy bunny. I'm sure thecycleclinic can advise...

cycleclinic

The ambrosio importers have packed up and gone. I am thinking about importing them and I might get the excelights however for now forget about having wheels with them.

I can check tomorrow if JD whiskers have any left. If they do then I can get them. However the ambrosio excelight while a decent rim is very similar to the old mavic open pro. Regardless of how light you are with a shallow narrow rim the only spoke count worth having is 32H or 36h. 28H rear risk spoke failures also when building everytime you stress the wheel it will go out of true. That not confidence inspiring when it comes to send them on there merry way.

As for other rims well for narrow and shallow there is the Mavic open pro in CD finish. this looks wonderful. But for something that looks quite classy there is the H plus son TB14 which is 14mm deep and 23mm wide. Its a nice box section rim. The archetype has already been mentioned and looks good on most older bikes.

HED do the other classy looking rim and that the belgium + but its quite expensive. It's not period either.

The Velocity A23 would work well too. the finish looks a bit cheap though but it works fine as a rim. The other modern rim that is pretty decent is the DT Swis R460. I may not be period but it does the job. The kinlins I like alot possibly wont look right on this bike so I am leaving them out.

Of course you should be having the ambrosio nemesis tubular rims but the only 32H rims I have at present have some marks. I have some 36H rims and a couple of montreals. The nemesis is a tubular rim and tubs suit the C40. I would.

The mavic open pro T is the tubular remake of the reflex. This would also work. HED do the belgium C2 and I have a pair in 24H drilling. This given the rim can be made to work well (tubular rim are stiffer than there clincher counterparts).

I even have a pair of velocity escapes and some old Mavic GP4's.


So tubular or clincher. Your probbaly not thinking tubeless.

Ah I have a couple of DT Swiss rims that would work. A 28H R415 for the front and R440 28H for the rear. DT swiss did used to make some good rims. what happened?

Heres what the grey archetypes look like. the TB14 are the same but box shape and shallower.

baby of cow called

A tubular build for inspiration and the H Plus Son TB14's would look similar.

baby of cow called

cycleclinic

first wheel build well Miche hubs or the Zenith offering are pretty good. Formula track hubs are a heavy lump but cheap.

As for spokes buy double butted silver. sapim race is what I like but any double butted spoke will do the job well.

As for rims, you get what you pay for. A pair of DT Swiss R460 rims dont cost much neither do the Kinlin XR22T's. The cheaper Kinlin XC 279 is good rim too.

To keep the cost down I would get the formula hub, sapim race silver spokes and the kinlin rim or the DT Swiss r460's.

Michael432000

thecycleclinic wrote:

The ambrosio importers have packed up and gone. I am thinking about importing them and I might get the excelights however for now forget about having wheels with them.

I can check tomorrow if JD whiskers have any left. If they do then I can get them. However the ambrosio excelight while a decent rim is very similar to the old mavic open pro. Regardless of how light you are with a shallow narrow rim the only spoke count worth having is 32H or 36h. 28H rear risk spoke failures also when building everytime you stress the wheel it will go out of true. That not confidence inspiring when it comes to send them on there merry way.

As for other rims well for narrow and shallow there is the Mavic open pro in CD finish. this looks wonderful. But for something that looks quite classy there is the H plus son TB14 which is 14mm deep and 23mm wide. Its a nice box section rim. The archetype has already been mentioned and looks good on most older bikes.

HED do the other classy looking rim and that the belgium + but its quite expensive. It's not period either.

The Velocity A23 would work well too. the finish looks a bit cheap though but it works fine as a rim. The other modern rim that is pretty decent is the DT Swis R460. I may not be period but it does the job. The kinlins I like alot possibly wont look right on this bike so I am leaving them out.

Of course you should be having the ambrosio nemesis tubular rims but the only 32H rims I have at present have some marks. I have some 36H rims and a couple of montreals. The nemesis is a tubular rim and tubs suit the C40. I would.

The mavic open pro T is the tubular remake of the reflex. This would also work. HED do the belgium C2 and I have a pair in 24H drilling. This given the rim can be made to work well (tubular rim are stiffer than there clincher counterparts).

I even have a pair of velocity escapes and some old Mavic GP4's.


So tubular or clincher. Your probbaly not thinking tubeless.

Ah I have a couple of DT Swiss rims that would work. A 28H R415 for the front and R440 28H for the rear. DT swiss did used to make some good rims. what happened?

Heres what the grey archetypes look like. the TB14 are the same but box shape and shallower.

baby of cow called

A tubular build for inspiration and the H Plus Son TB14's would look similar.

baby of cow called

Hi thecycleclinic. Thank you for your comprehensive reply. Unfortunately your reply came just too late and I have a couple of excellight rims on there way in 28h. The two companies who I paid in advance for a 32h rear couldn’t come up with the goods. The guy who’s going to build them assures me the 28h will build up ok so let’s wait and see.

Thinking about it now the Nemesis tubular would have been a great choice. I have a friend of similar weight, 10 stone, who built up a pair of Ambrosio Crono F20 tubulars with a 28h front and rear, CK hubs, and he seems ok with them. The Crono rim is only 360g too compared to the 430g on the excellite.

cycleclinic

Seems OK on them for now. He might long term but it depends ont he rider not there weight. F20 in general are too light to build a reliable rear wheel in 28H. even in 32h they are iffy. The difference in lateral and radial stiffness between a 32H nemesis and F20 rim is real.

The 28h excelights will build up and be rideable and you may get on with them in the sense they wont give you problems but a 32h rear wheel with a similar rim will feel more direct when putting the power down.

the best wheels are the ones which you dont notice and feel effortless under you. I had that feeling tonight on my FIR tubular rims (shallow 400g rims) built with 32F/32R spoke count with alpina 2.0/1.7/2.0mm spokes on chorus hubs. Utterly sublime as I dont know they are there.

too many assume lighter is better. dont fall into that trap.

Ambrosio dont make the F20 anymore. the lightest tubular rim on the market is the mavic Open Pro T. that comes in CD finish which is classy.