Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

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  • apv1apv1 Posts: 4
    Have a question:
    Why is my rear wheel rubbing on my brakes during hard efforts/high torque?

    Rider weight: 69kg
    Brake type: bottom bracket rim brake
    Wheel: hand built dimpled aero 58mm
    Hubs: DT240s
    Wheel condition: used once
    Lacing type: j bend spokes 20/24, radial 2 cross.

    I’ve read the slow twitch forum and the fact that my brake is at the bottom bracket makes things more confusing for me.

    The hubs don’t have play.

    I haven’t spoken to the wheel builder yet but will do soon , was hoping some internet strangers could point me in a direction so I know what to look for and ask.

    Thanks in advanced
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,898
    Doesn't seem to be anything wrong with your wheels' construction, probably the pads sit too close to the rim, a bit of lateral flex is to be expected
  • craigus89craigus89 Posts: 863
    first wheel build well Miche hubs or the Zenith offering are pretty good. Formula track hubs are a heavy lump but cheap.

    As for spokes buy double butted silver. sapim race is what I like but any double butted spoke will do the job well.

    As for rims, you get what you pay for. A pair of DT Swiss R460 rims dont cost much neither do the Kinlin XR22T's. The cheaper Kinlin XC 279 is good rim too.

    To keep the cost down I would get the formula hub, sapim race silver spokes and the kinlin rim or the DT Swiss r460's.

    Thanks for this. Are the Kinlin XR200 available in 32h variety? Do you think that they would be a bit too flexy for a fixed build?

    Also wondering if the Sapim laser spokes will be suitable rather than race to save a little weight for not much more cost, but from doing more reading perhaps not ideal for the rear particularly on a fixed wheel?

    Currently thinking as you suggest, DT R460 rims, sapim race spokes but with the Miche hubs, comes to about £190 and weigh in less than 2kg which is nice.
  • timothywtimothyw Posts: 2,421
    Use aci alpina dB spokes from cycle basket, mid section of spoke is 1.7mm so slightly lighter than sapim race and considerably cheaper.

    Not had any problems in my several builds with them.
  • bobonesbobones Posts: 975
    +1 on the ACI Alpina spokes if you're looking to keep costs down without compromising quality. 24p for silver or 45p for black with brass nipples is great value, but they're not as light as lasers.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,898
    Used to be 10p a pop for Alpina silver... I guess Brexit has hit hard on those :-)
  • craigus89craigus89 Posts: 863
    Thanks for that recommendation, will definitely go for those over the sapim race as that is quite a big saving relatively speaking.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,861
    For track wheel the Kinlin XR200 rims are fine with any spokes. sapim race or those alpinas suggested would be cheaper though and easier to build with. I have some alpina spokes and while you can buld good wheels with them I never like the spoke. They bend in way a sapim doesn't and the finish on them is not that lustourious. I'm being picky now and made a commercial decsion but for the home builder aplina spoke should be fine.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,861
    apv1 ugo maybe right about the pads being too close but that not the only reason

    You have a deep rim supported by 24 thin spokes (probably as that what everyone uses). then you lace it a hub with 17/33mm flange spacing. the cause of the rub is the spokes dont impart enough lateral stiffness to keep the rim mid point between the brake pads when you side load and bend the wheel when out of the saddle.

    Increasing the lateral stiffness of the rim will make matter worse. Using a latterally less stiff rim will reduce rub.

    Spoke count could increase but s difficult now spoke guage to increase and that makes the spokes stiffer.

    The hub however is important. the main reason why I refuse to build with DT swiss rad rim brake hubs is the shallow NDS bracing angle. 11 speed hubs are what they are. you are limited to 17mm spacing DS. however there is no valid reason not to position your NDS flange 37 or 38mm from centre. That will go along way to resolving the brake rub issue as a larger NDS bracing angle does improve by about 15% the lateral stiffness the spokes impart over what the DT swiss hub offers to the wheel and thus it helps keep the rim between the brake tracks.

    Essentially the components used dont complement each other. The to resolve this without change the hub or rim is to use thicker spokes like the Sapim CX sprint or Force. Pillar have a few options too.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,898
    DT 240 is fine for 58 mm rims, that's what it is designed for. I think the construction of the wheel is very adequate and there is not a lot of room for improvement...

    Open the pads a bit and forget about it
  • apv1apv1 Posts: 4
    Thanks both, though I feel like you two are standing of different sides of the fence. @malcom @ugo
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 23,898
    apv1 wrote:
    Thanks both, though I feel like you two are standing of different sides of the fence. @malcom @ugo

    In principle I agree with Malcolm, the wider the flange the better, but since you have very deep rims, then the DT 240 is more than adequate. You might make it stiffer by using a thicker gauge spoke, probably DT Swiss aero-comp would be the best choice, but it's an expensive upgrade (75 quid of spokes, plus another 40 or so to rebuild the wheel), when the most obvious solution is to spread the pads a little bit wider apart
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,861
    Ugo is correct about how the cost here. Dt swiss for some of there wheels use the dt 240 hub with a shell with 17/38mm spacing. I don't know if they do thos for there deep section rimmed wheels.

    The other reason is dual pivot brakes for the rear. There is no need for them. My preference has always been campagnolo single pivot brake for the rear. Sadly campag have stopped making them and modern shimano brake lever cable pull does not complement a single pivot lever well. It a shame it punters buy brakes where they can lock the wheel easily thinking that will stop them faster.

    Have you heard the latest boost spacing for road bikes. FFS
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • drlodgedrlodge Posts: 4,824
    I get my wheels from Malcolm now. First it was Harry Rowland but he only builds with a small selection of components. Ugo built me a couple of sets but since he's moved out of the area I find Malcolm to be very good. Its the design - or selection of components - where a good wheel builder comes into his own. I get wheels that are fit for my purpose, at a decent price, are reliable and easily fixed should something break or wear out.
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
    Find me on Strava
  • roubaixmbroubaixmb Posts: 182
    drlodge wrote:
    I get my wheels from Malcolm now. First it was Harry Rowland but he only builds with a small selection of components. Ugo built me a couple of sets but since he's moved out of the area I find Malcolm to be very good. Its the design - or selection of components - where a good wheel builder comes into his own. I get wheels that are fit for my purpose, at a decent price, are reliable and easily fixed should something break or wear out.

    That's the discount on your next set sorted :D
  • timothywtimothyw Posts: 2,421
    You'll need that discount if you happen to want Open Pro carbon rims.... rrp £545 each. Ouch.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 9,832
    The best bit about handbuilts is that once you have paid for decent hubs then future repairs or upgrades are cheap compared to off the shelf complete wheelsets.
    Assuming well maintained hubs.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • beanstalkbeanstalk Posts: 143
    apv1 wrote:
    Have a question:
    Why is my rear wheel rubbing on my brakes during hard efforts/high torque?

    Rider weight: 69kg
    Brake type: bottom bracket rim brake
    Wheel: hand built dimpled aero 58mm
    Hubs: DT240s
    Wheel condition: used once
    Lacing type: j bend spokes 20/24, radial 2 cross.

    I’ve read the slow twitch forum and the fact that my brake is at the bottom bracket makes things more confusing for me.

    The hubs don’t have play.

    I haven’t spoken to the wheel builder yet but will do soon , was hoping some internet strangers could point me in a direction so I know what to look for and ask.

    Thanks in advanced
    https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Debunki ... _3449.html

    They call it rim stiffness vs. spoke stiffness.
    Your wheel with the stiff deep section rim and low spoke count would be "rim stiff" causing the rim as a whole canting sideways and rubbing the pads.
    The other extrema would be a very shallow rim profile that only deforms at the contact point to the street.
  • mrb123 wrote:

    They are...
    just last week I was in Italy and a friend on factory wheels managed to bust not one, but two spokes on a steep climb. I just about managed to tweak his spokes so that the wheel could run through the chain stays, so that he could limp home... needless to say, the wheels were just out of warranty and now in the bin (one of the spokes pulled through the hub, so terminal damage).
    It's the usual buy cheap, buy twice and in some cases not even that cheap... :wink:
  • step83step83 Posts: 3,377
    Any thoughts on 650b disc rims? looking to re use my old Hope Pro4 32h hubs. Looking at around 50c tyre wise, lots of spokes as it'll be used for winter and likely bike packing. Tubeless would be nice but not a deal breaker.
  • step83 wrote:
    Any thoughts on 650b disc rims? looking to re use my old Hope Pro4 32h hubs. Looking at around 50c tyre wise, lots of spokes as it'll be used for winter and likely bike packing. Tubeless would be nice but not a deal breaker.

    Why do you feel the need for 50 mm tyres?
  • step83step83 Posts: 3,377
    step83 wrote:
    Any thoughts on 650b disc rims? looking to re use my old Hope Pro4 32h hubs. Looking at around 50c tyre wise, lots of spokes as it'll be used for winter and likely bike packing. Tubeless would be nice but not a deal breaker.

    Why do you feel the need for 50 mm tyres?

    Well, nice to have the option, will usually be 35c-40c. A lot of the woods round me the fire roads are basically sand so the added volume helps.
  • Make sure you have the clearances... if so, then 650b wheels are inherently more robust than 700c wheels
  • step83step83 Posts: 3,377
    More than fine clearance wise, wheel wise it'll take 700c x 45mm or 650B x 52mm as a max. Just not sure rim wise, I'm happy building but last time I did it was a set of 26" mavics with these hubs when they originally came out. Not really clued up on these more modern rims!
  • anjasolaanjasola Posts: 124
    A big shout for wheelsmith.co.uk, first class service.
  • step83 wrote:
    More than fine clearance wise, wheel wise it'll take 700c x 45mm or 650B x 52mm as a max. Just not sure rim wise, I'm happy building but last time I did it was a set of 26" mavics with these hubs when they originally came out. Not really clued up on these more modern rims!

    Same thing
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,861
    You can use rims up 23mm or so internal width. Kinlin Tl23 is nice and cheap 40mm is the min useable tyre width for these though. It's an mtb rim so 50mm tyres are best or wider.

    Kinlin do the TL21 which 21mm internal width. There are more expensive rims some are lighter Stans and mtb for example) but you have to decide if you cheap and good or more expensive and lighter.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • sopworthsopworth Posts: 190
    Hi,
    Just a bit of advice before I start. I'm going to commence my first wheel build later. I've got a hub (DT Swiss 350), Velocity major tom rim and DT competition spokes. I'm confident I have the procedure in my mind and on paper, but before I start I wanted to know if folk use motor oil, grease or lube etc on their spoke nipples and on the rim around the holes?
    I was intending to use motor oil.
    Also - do I need a spoke tension gauge?
    Thank you.
  • edward.sedward.s Posts: 93
    I used wet lube on threads and holes. Seems to work OK. Some use Linseed oil.

    In all honesty, while it probably does help the spokes not to bind in the holes etc, Its probably not 100% necessary. Lots of tension relieving during the build is what will keep the wheel true.

    I regard a tension meter as necessary. Some don't, but I don't have the experience and feel to do it by sound only. The park one works well enough for me.

    For reference, I've only built a total of 8 wheels from scratch, and trued a fair few more. So far, some of those 8 wheels have 2000 miles on them and all have remained true.
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