Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

staffo

For simplicity I’d be very tempted to get the same hubs on 700 rims. Different hubs may require adding shims to get the discs in the same position.

andyh01

Good point, however it kind of defeats my justification of two wheelsets rather than two sets of tyres. In that I would like some "better" wheels than the stock.
I'm not sure in what why I want "better" other than higher spike count particularly on the back as be carrying a pannier so was thinking 28 front 32 rear and robust hubs and rims rather have quality and value then budget/cheap China knockoffs and something to match the 3k frame/group set.
I was also thinking of running a lower/easier cassette on the 650b then the 700c with probably a semi compact up front.

cycleclinic

With disc brake bikes you don't really need more spokes at the back than at the front. Off road riding or the kind you would do on a bokeh does not stress wheels any more than road riding as the tyre is meant to absorb the bumps.

DT Swiss alloy rims are not that great. CX-rays well they add cost. 240 hubs are overpriced for what you get. I would not bother. I never suggest them to customers as I feel like I am robbing them.

Lets break this down. the point of a second pair of wheels is if you run tubeless then you dont have to remove tubeless tyres to fit other ones. changing tubeless tyre regularly is not only a pain in the back side but tyre stretch becomes an issue as does tape lift. So two good pair of wheels one 700c for say 28mm tubeless tyres and one 650B for something like WTB resolutes would be great unless the bokeh has space for 700c 40mm tyre in which case what the point in having 650B wheels? Try talking to a wheel builder but this time dont approach with a spec (you may not have done that) just say what you need the wheels for and see what they suggest.

Hope is just one hub solution. There are others thankfully. Also in my experience if people tightened the lockrings up enough the alloy freehubs wont notch much at all. Those that think they do are not. a shimano made cassette on an alloy freehub requires about 50Nm on the lockring to stop notching. the lockring and the lockring threads will take that is they are clean and sharp, which they should be.

andyh01

Mason recommends 700x40 (45 max) and 650bx50 (2.1' max) I'll want to fit full guards been looking at Velo Orange.
My main concern is for when it's snow/ice as most of route is off road cycle path and tow path so no gritters.
I was thinking 650b gives more options, I wouldn't mind trying cycle cross and there is a local league in its second year nearby but clashes with the rugby we also do on Sundays. I wouldn't normally buy 650b but thought more useful than two 700c ? As I can see a set of 700c with ice spikes just sitting there most of time unless snow/ice around whereas 650b I might be more inclined to look more off road then otherwise I would, but I suppose I could still fit a more aggressive wider tyre on a set of 700.
I was thinking higher spoke count for carrying load on the back?
I currently weigh 80kg bikes 9.2kg plus cloths lunch ect.
So what would you suggest for the nicer 700 x28/32/35 that's somehow better than Hunt's

ugo.santalucia

I would like to point out that in cyclo cross the tyre size is limited to 33 mm... not 50

andyh01

Yes aware some events limit others including the local league here don't, can just turn up on whatever, already checked with them

ugo.santalucia

AndyH01 wrote:

Yes aware some events limit others including the local league here don't, can just turn up on whatever, already checked with them

fine, that's because they don't want to put off people who only own a MTBike, but if you have a bike that can take 700 x 33, is it not against the spirit of the sport to fit 50 mm tyres?

Frankly I don't understand the need for 650 and 50 mm tyres in general... for a while I flirted with CX bikes and mud, but I always thought 33 mm was enough... anything more demanding requires flat bars, possibly shocks and big tyres... big tyres and drop bars are incompatible IMO

andyh01

Would you go two sets of 700c instead then?
TBF only 5mm in it and these are max widths not suggesting would go that big.
Probably the 40 ish knoblerleys /ice spikes.

timothyw

There are other advantages to having both wheelsets 700c, specifically that if anything does happen to either wheel/wheelset you can mix and match as required to make do while things are repaired.

ugo.santalucia

AndyH01 wrote:

Would you go two sets of 700c instead then?
TBF only 5mm in it and these are max widths not suggesting would go that big.
Probably the 40 ish knoblerleys /ice spikes.

Funny enough, I never felt the need to have more than one set of wheels on a given bike... I once built myself a second set, but sold it within a few months

andyh01

Happy New Year all!
What did you do in snow/ice on the one set of wheels?
As this is instead of a second car I need to be able to commute year round and mostly off road so to start with at least the main concern is what to if/when snow /ice/frost forms on the ungritted cycle paths.

ugo.santalucia

AndyH01 wrote:

Happy New Year all!
What did you do in snow/ice on the one set of wheels?
As this is instead of a second car I need to be able to commute year round and mostly off road so to start with at least the main concern is what to if/when snow /ice/frost forms on the ungritted cycle paths.

2 bikes... one for commuting with spikes and one for leisure. Generally I would put them on and leave them on for the deepest winter, using the leisure bike on those days when they are clearly not necessary. More recently I have decided I can no longer be bothered to ride on ice, so I just drive on those (few so far) days when it's iffy.
Bus + Brompton is another option... bus in the morning, Brompton on the way back.

andyh01

My plan is one bike, two wheels, possibly borrow a car if really too bad but experience shows bike better in those conditions anyway
Bus don't go direction guess be two or three busses.

ugo.santalucia

AndyH01 wrote:

My plan is one bike, two wheels, possibly borrow a car if really too bad but experience shows bike better in those conditions anyway
Bus don't go direction guess be two or three busses.

Bike might be better, but other drivers can still slide on the ice and bring your commute to a sudden halt in dramatic fashion, if it's as bad as you say. To be honest, I'd rather crash in a car, if I really have to.
Also, in my case driving means I can take a longer way round along busy dual carriageways, which are well gritted and safe. Cycling, I am bound to share a dodgy B road with traffic or take non gritted lanes, which occasionally are ice rinks.

This winter has been very kind, thus far

andyh01

Indeed although I think mid Jan/Feb will be bad.
Last time it really snowed and I was thinking n bike I was gingerly riding on the paths safer option then ice skating with cars.

I've seen actually that bike treks stock the Bokeh so I'll give them a call tomorrow, see what they can do as a bike shop.

cycleclinic

It easier to avoid a sliding car on a bike with I've tyres because you can steer and brake. Driving on snow and ice is more dangerous in a car. The logic expressed here is faulty.

As an owner of many wheels I also find I rarely swap wheels between bikes. If your commuting all year round then you should have a decidicated bike for that. I have a commuter bike and another old MTB with spiked tyres on for ice. An old MTB makes a good commutor if the commute is not too long.

andyh01

Commute is 10 miles
I want to upgrade the wheels anyway I think, don't know why,, as not much difference in price with/without the stock hunt I might as buy with wheels, I at not sure whether 700c or 650b. If 700c then I guess I could use just these for a bit, save up more and get a nice summer set next year, then use the Hunts as dedicated mud/ice. Or get 650b and a nice 700c as well off the bat and use these until snow falls then swap onto the 650b

moonshine

I'm looking at a new set of summer wheels for my Cervelo c3. What is the opinion on a set of tubeless FarSports carbon 45mmx28mm disk rims with no brake track built on dt swiss 350s 24h disk hubs with Sapim cx sprint spokes for just over £500 delivered?

torino

Building a The Hydra on Hope Pro4 hub, front only as I got the rear from a pro-builder. Standard stuff, 3x with Sapim Race and brass nipples. 32H. Wondering how tight the disc side spokes should be. Currently around 105kgf, pretty much uniform. Not sure if I tighten them a bit more or if it is just fine. Rear wheel is tight as hell, 125kgf, pretty uniform.

Builder used some nipple washers for the rear wheel, so I've also used in the front wheel (PITA to build those since I got 2 or 3 washers inside the rim and it was a nightmare to take them out).

ugo.santalucia

torino wrote:

Building a The Hydra on Hope Pro4 hub, front only as I got the rear from a pro-builder. Standard stuff, 3x with Sapim Race and brass nipples. 32H. Wondering how tight the disc side spokes should be. Currently around 105kgf, pretty much uniform. Not sure if I tighten them a bit more or if it is just fine. Rear wheel is tight as hell, 125kgf, pretty uniform.

Builder used some nipple washers for the rear wheel, so I've also used in the front wheel (PITA to build those since I got 2 or 3 washers inside the rim and it was a nightmare to take them out).

Depends on the non disc side. If the rim is asymmetric, that allows for similar tensions on both sides, in which case your 105 KgF might be enough, if not, then the non disc side might end up having too low tension, in which case you need to increase it.

What matters is the average tension on the wheel... say you have 120/60 and that works fine (average 90), if you lower to 100, then you end up with 50 on the other side and an average of 75, which might be too low

torino

I see. I will check but probably the non-disc side is about 60 on average. To be on the safe side I will increase disc side to 115, and thats it.

For me the most difficult part of wheelbuilding is knowing when to stop tightening those spokes! I guess experience helps a lot here.

ugo.santalucia

torino wrote:

I see. I will check but probably the non-disc side is about 60 on average. To be on the safe side I will increase disc side to 115, and thats it.

For me the most difficult part of wheelbuilding is knowing when to stop tightening those spokes! I guess experience helps a lot here.

Tension depends on a lot of factors... a heavy or very strong rider will require more tension than a lighter or less powerful rider. A wheel with fewer spokes will require more tension per spoke than one with more spokes.

Also, I suspect you are using a Park Tool, whose calibration is generally way off (typically over reads tension), which doesn't help.

Some general rules about wheelbuilding

https://whosatthewheel.com/2017/11/12/t ... -dynamics/

torino

I have a reference wheel that has 1250N average on rear drive-side.

I always use the same type of spokes (dt comp or sapim race), and measure tensions by first calibrating the park tool tensionmeter against the reference wheel.

The Tensioner app also is used for cross validating the readings. I’ve found that their their readings are quite accurate considering also that no calibration is necessary.

Probably my readings are within +-5% of the true value.

ugo.santalucia

torino wrote:

Probably my readings are within +-5% of the true value.

Optimistic...
I'd be happy if mine were within 15% of the correct value and I use a DT Tensio...

torino

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Optimistic...
I'd be happy if mine were within 15% of the correct value and I use a DT Tensio...

I've never touched one, but I think it is the same deflection based mechanism as the Park Tool? The Park tool suffers from severe variations depending on how you handle it, or how fast you release the spring, or whether you are using your right or left hand... So you need to be very consistent in the way you measure, and of course use the same technique on the reference wheel. The conversion values on the TM mean nothing. The Tensio is much better quality stuff for sure. Do you calibrate it often?

On the other hand, the app gives extremely consistent readings, no matter how you tone the spoke (hard, soft, left or right hand, any finger, etc.). It may be biased, but it is precise. But if you are measuring against a reference wheel with the same spoke types, and you assume (this is the key point here!) that the reference wheel is correct, then you are fine.

The problem is that if I want to build a wheel with anything other than races or comps then I need another reference wheel. Or just trust the absolute readings from the app, which I think are pretty close, at least for races.

Maybe someone could offer reference wheels with 2 or 3 spoke types...

furrag

Bought a second hand Speed Concept about 4 years ago. Came with a wheelset, DT Swiss 240s hubs, 32 spokes, and a rim with no decals on. The rim is now cracked, so I need to replace it, but I can't ID it.

The rim has B41 469 stamped into it beside a spoke hole on the tape side, but there is no positive search for this.

I believe it may well be a Mavic Open Pro based on:
Double eyelets
Box rim in nature
Measurements of rim depth, ID and OD

So do I buy an Open Pro and get a shop to rebuild? Or do I choose another shallow alloy rim for training purposes (I have a set of deeps), and get them to buy new spokes too?

My issue is that I loved the wheels. I've had numerous other shallow rims, and these just felt robust. If the latter, recommendations would be nice for a rim & spokes.

ugo.santalucia

DT 240 don't suit shallow rims... poor flange geometry means they are best suited to deeper rims. I would cut the spokes and rebuild on a 30 mm rim... Kinlin 31 or similar

cycleclinic

Tension the hydra front wheel as much as you like. I would tension like s rear wheel. No reason not too.

I have a calibration jig to check my guages. The problem with getting good tension readings is twist. Twist affects the tension reading inflating or reducing it. Plucking the spoke reveals this.

As for the DT rims. Ugo is right about the DT hub but a kinlin XR22t or the Mavic open pro UST rim build fine on the 240hub in 32h drilling. Done this and the wheel is fine. Since you have the hub already you might as well use it.

furrag

Cheers chaps. How's a DT Swiss RR511 as an alternative to the XR31T?

timothyw

They're very similar. The DT Swiss is a tiny bit less wide - I've never used them but had the previous model rr585 which was very solid - I wouldn't have any reservations about using them.