Vuelta a Andalucia 2015 *Spoilers*

iainf72

Joelsim wrote:

Realistically those who were around in 2007/8/9 have to keep their passport levels as they were then, don't they?

You don't really understand how the passport works. It's about what's natural - in 07 many people would've been flagged as dodgy with the passport. As a matter of fact, the anti doping guys used to have a good idea of how many people were on EPO from blood tests (unnatural off-score etc) but they couldn't open cases based on it. The passport now allows this to happen so has driven a significant change.

One sure fire way to get snagged by the passport is have uniform numbers.

No_Ta_Doctor

iainf72 wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Realistically those who were around in 2007/8/9 have to keep their passport levels as they were then, don't they?

You don't really understand how the passport works. It's about what's natural - in 07 many people would've been flagged as dodgy with the passport. As a matter of fact, the anti doping guys used to have a good idea of how many people were on EPO from blood tests (unnatural off-score etc) but they couldn't open cases based on it. The passport now allows this to happen so has driven a significant change.

One sure fire way to get snagged by the passport is have uniform numbers.

While I don't want to back joelsims "they're all at it" he does have a point re the bio passport. He didn't say riders had to keep a uniform level - that certainly gets you snagged for a violation. But initial readings are used to establish baselines for riders, including acceptable variation. If the levels and patterns you establish in the bad old days change too much - eg you now have more variation than you used to - then you could feasibly be caught out.

iainf72

No tA Doctor wrote:

While I don't want to back joelsims "they're all at it" he does have a point re the bio passport. He didn't say riders had to keep a uniform level - that certainly gets you snagged for a violation. But initial readings are used to establish baselines for riders, including acceptable variation. If the levels and patterns you establish in the bad old days change too much - eg you now have more variation than you used to - then you could feasibly be caught out.

Sure, but acceptable variation isn't based solely on what you've exhibited in the past. It'll be 90% what's considered normal with a bit of variation for individuals. You could dope under the radar but not in a big way, and certainly not like you could in 07

tim000

isnt this what caught out JTL. doped before joining sky , but stopped at sky . so passport numbers dropped .

ocdupalais

Bert claims he could have gone harder on stage 3; but equally it could be argued he lost 2 seconds freewheeling over the line to do his silly pistol victory salute. Compare this with Froome's lunges for the line on both occasions.

Yates nearly let the GC slip in last year's Tour of Turkey by doing the same thing.
It's the sort of thing juniors get shouted at for.

RichN95.

OCDuPalais wrote:

Bert claims he could have gone harder on stage 3; but equally it could be argued he lost 2 seconds freewheeling over the line to do his silly pistol victory salute. Compare this with Froome's lunges for the line on both occasions.

Yates nearly let the GC slip in last year's Tour of Turkey by doing the same thing.
It's the sort of thing juniors get shouted at for.

Back in 1989 I was in the US while the Tour was on and LeMond had won a stage and breakfast TV sports guy criticised him for easing up before the line celebrating as it may have cost him valuable seconds. Know-it-all me thought "Don't be stupid man, no-one wins the the Tour by a few seconds"

frenchfighter

OCDuPalais wrote:

Bert claims he could have gone harder on stage 3; but equally it could be argued he lost 2 seconds freewheeling over the line to do his silly pistol victory salute. Compare this with Froome's lunges for the line on both occasions.

Yates nearly let the GC slip in last year's Tour of Turkey by doing the same thing.
It's the sort of thing juniors get shouted at for.

The same thought crossed my mind. The salute matters more than the win though

joelsim

No tA Doctor wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Realistically those who were around in 2007/8/9 have to keep their passport levels as they were then, don't they?

You don't really understand how the passport works. It's about what's natural - in 07 many people would've been flagged as dodgy with the passport. As a matter of fact, the anti doping guys used to have a good idea of how many people were on EPO from blood tests (unnatural off-score etc) but they couldn't open cases based on it. The passport now allows this to happen so has driven a significant change.

One sure fire way to get snagged by the passport is have uniform numbers.

While I don't want to back joelsims "they're all at it" he does have a point re the bio passport. He didn't say riders had to keep a uniform level - that certainly gets you snagged for a violation. But initial readings are used to establish baselines for riders, including acceptable variation. If the levels and patterns you establish in the bad old days change too much - eg you now have more variation than you used to - then you could feasibly be caught out.

Exactly. So those readings when the passport was first introduced were the first points on the chart. So, it probably follows that the readings of individuals can't vary too much from those or the system will flag them up. Everyone has their own levels of normality which are then put within the framework. Then the limits are set to make a false strike less than 1/1000 chance. Chemistry.

andyp

But there are other indicators which would flag up manipulation, even if the passport holder hadn't changed their doping regime, as they would fall outside the expected, normal values.

It's a very sophisticated tool, and one worth reading up on.

ocdupalais

andyp wrote:

But there are other indicators which would flag up manipulation...

It's a very sophisticated tool, and one worth reading up on.

Blimey, guvnor - I thought I was reading about that Rifkind fella again and no mistake.

Macaloon

OCDuPalais wrote:

andyp wrote:

But there are other indicators which would flag up manipulation...

It's a very sophisticated tool, and one worth reading up on.

Blimey, guvnor - I thought I was reading about that Rifkind fella again and no mistake.

A sad tale indeed. Came a cropper down the revolution, following a dodgy Chinese wheel we're led to understand. Decent engine but not too bright.

frenchfighter

http://53x12.com/do/show?page=indepth.view&id=154

St 3:
Contador climbed the 8 Km at 9% at 1800m/h (6.20 w/kg), with Froome not far at 1777 m/h (6.13 w/kg). All the other rivals were much further back.
St 4:
VAM was a stratospheric 2059 m/h (6.86 w/kg), with Alberto climbing at 1938 m/h (6.46 w/kg).