Disc or caliper brakes?

dodgy

frisbee wrote:

My main reasons for looking at disc brakes for my next bike (winter/commuting) are wet weather performance and immunity to mucky roads (which result in the horrible screeching/grinding noise that you can tell are destroying your rims).

Main reason I moved over to discs.

The additional braking power in wet weather is just a bonus.

btiratsoo

I currently own an Argon 18 Krypton with Ultegra 11 speed and Exalith coated Ksyriums. I'm building an S-Works Tarmac Disc with DA DI2 and hydraulic brakes. When I finish the build I will compare the bikes and post a fair review of them both over the same routes. I will try and be impartial. I know both bikes are different but they are both carbon and the rim braked Argon might not be DA but the Ultegra brakes and Exalith coating are supposedly one of the best set ups. I'll post up in a couple of weeks.

thegreatdivide

andrewjoseph wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

You're actually suggesting that rim brakes, and road traction, on a road bike are powerful enough to flip you over the handlebars? I reckon that's probably nonsense even for a light rider in perfect braking conditions. It's absolutely utter rubbish for a heavy rider in wet conditions

I have, only reason I didn't hurt myself too badly is the busstop took the impact, not the road. For several meters I was riding on my front wheel trying to avoid the kid on his bike who hopped onto the road without looking. If I'd squeezed a bit harder/longer I'd have been on the road. I took the risk to ease off the brakes and take out a perspex sheet instead.

And yes, I was well braced, bum behind saddle to such an extent I had the brooke's logo imprinted above my pubic bone.

You can see the pro's do it often when they slow for a crash.

I would suggest if you can't do a stoppie on your bike, regardless of brake system, you need to get them sorted.

My pushed in two front teeth and upcoming £2k dental bill, broken nose and fractured hand, not to mention a cracked Prevail helmet are proof that at 66kg, cresting the top of a very slight downhill at sub 15mph, in the dry, in the spring, using Super Record caliper brakes and Fulcrum Zero wheels you CAN slam on the front and go head first over the bars and hit the tarmac.

neeb

btiratsoo wrote:

I currently own an Argon 18 Krypton with Ultegra 11 speed and Exalith coated Ksyriums. I'm building an S-Works Tarmac Disc with DA DI2 and hydraulic brakes. When I finish the build I will compare the bikes and post a fair review of them both over the same routes. I will try and be impartial. I know both bikes are different but they are both carbon and the rim braked Argon might not be DA but the Ultegra brakes and Exalith coating are supposedly one of the best set ups. I'll post up in a couple of weeks.

Great, look forward to it!

Stueys wrote:

Fairly typical forum fare, we've a group of people who all have disc bikes giving positive feedback whilst a group of people who have never riden discs furiously question them

But you said yourself that in dry conditions the DA callipers on your (best, summer?) bike are pretty much indistinguishable from the discs on your winter bike. So would you still ideally want discs on both your bikes, i.e. if/when you replace the bike with the callipers will you be going for a disc setup? Can I ask what the two bikes are, and how they compare in other ways?

It's remarkably difficult to find published weights for disc-equipped road bikes such as the Tarmac disc or the De Rosa Idol disc. Even in supposedly comprehensive reviews, like this. I'd be grateful for links if anyone can find them! :-) Now, I'm not about to argue that (say) up to 500g extra weight for discs is worth worrying about, but if it starts to get up to 1kg or more then that's potentially noticeable for light riders and genuine questions arise about whether you'd want to have discs on a bike that's mostly going to be ridden in dry summer conditions.

For me, the question is not if I buy a disc equipped bike now - sure, if I was in the market for a new winter bike or a bike for an Alpine sportive then I might seriously think about it, but there is too much uncertainty still about standards and compatibility, and I have too much of an investment in expensive non-disc compatible equipment such as wheels and a couple of powertaps. The question is more whether I hold off buying any more expensive bike stuff until the market sorts itself out, which I guess is going to be another couple of years at least. Ironically, this big disc-related marketing drive from the industry is basically going to put a halt to my normally fairly liberal spending on bike equipment for a year or three, because I'm not about to invest any substantial sums of money in frames, groupsets and wheels that may be obsolete and with a very low resale value in two years time.

meanredspider

I'd fall off my chair if discs were even as much as 500g heavier than rim brakes. When I weighed BB7s versus Ultegra the difference was about 125g from memory. Yes, there's a little in the carbon and spoke lacing at the front but nothing to talk of. And you should be able to lose weight in the rims with no need for brake tracks or wear allowance.

I also think that the whole axle thing is a red herring and an unnecessary distraction. I think the manufacturers have shot themselves in the foot with this because it just causes people to hesitate to adopt discs. I believe Shimano will have adaptors from Thru axle hubs to QR in any case so going QR has no downside.

neeb

meanredspider wrote:

I'd fall off my chair if discs were even as much as 500g heavier than rim brakes. When I weighed BB7s versus Ultegra the difference was about 125g from memory. Yes, there's a little in the carbon and spoke lacing at the front but nothing to talk of. And you should be able to lose weight in the rims with no need for brake tracks or wear allowance.

I also think that the whole axle thing is a red herring and an unnecessary distraction. I think the manufacturers have shot themselves in the foot with this because it just causes people to hesitate to adopt discs. I believe Shimano will have adaptors from Thru axle hubs to QR in any case so going QR has no downside.

Disc compatible forks seem to be a lot heavier than standard ones, I've seen examples from the same brand where the standard fork is a bit over 300g and the disc version is over 500g. Then you add the 125g for the slightly heavier brakes, the extra carbon layup at the rear, spoking, then the hoses, fluid, levers etc. I've seen 500g overall quoted, but the examples of disc brake equipped bikes I've seen where weights have been provided all seem to have been pretty heavy. Admittedly that's partially because there are more endurance/steel/sportive bikes being marketed right now with discs than full-on high end road bikes.

I'm sure you are right in that there are weight savings too to be had from discs, especially in carbon clincher rims. It would just be good to have a nice table of side-by-side comparisons of disc and non-disc versions of the same bikes with the same builds (c59, Idol, Tarmac etc). Perhaps they are more than 500g heavier now but will be less than that once the tech is all sorted out and fully integrated. But trying to actually get the information is like getting blood from a stone, which helps to confirm my suspicions that the current disc tech adds considerable weight. Happy to be proved wrong!

Roberto di Velo

If I was in the market for a commuter/all-weather/winter trainer type bike, I think discs would be a no-brainer choice.

But I'm not, and I am a bit of a fair weather cyclist! My next bike is likely to be a new 'best' bike that is faster, lighter, shinier and reasonably comfortable. The question is whether it is worth going for discs in this sort of bike? Taking the example of Rose; an ultegra Xeon CGF is about £1500 and weighs about 7KG, the same CDX with discs is another £450 and weighs 7.5KG. Alternatively, you can go for a SRAM force hydro at £1700 that weighs 6.8KG (see links below).

http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/bike/rose-xe ... aid:746420
http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/bike/rose-xe ... aid:765919
http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/bike/rose-xe ... aid:746747

So are discs always the best option?

andrewjoseph

thegreatdivide wrote:

andrewjoseph wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

You're actually suggesting that rim brakes, and road traction, on a road bike are powerful enough to flip you over the handlebars? I reckon that's probably nonsense even for a light rider in perfect braking conditions. It's absolutely utter rubbish for a heavy rider in wet conditions

I have, only reason I didn't hurt myself too badly is the busstop took the impact, not the road. For several meters I was riding on my front wheel trying to avoid the kid on his bike who hopped onto the road without looking. If I'd squeezed a bit harder/longer I'd have been on the road. I took the risk to ease off the brakes and take out a perspex sheet instead.

And yes, I was well braced, bum behind saddle to such an extent I had the brooke's logo imprinted above my pubic bone.

You can see the pro's do it often when they slow for a crash.

I would suggest if you can't do a stoppie on your bike, regardless of brake system, you need to get them sorted.

My pushed in two front teeth and upcoming £2k dental bill, broken nose and fractured hand, not to mention a cracked Prevail helmet are proof that at 66kg, cresting the top of a very slight downhill at sub 15mph, in the dry, in the spring, using Super Record caliper brakes and Fulcrum Zero wheels you CAN slam on the front and go head first over the bars and hit the tarmac.

I'm 80 kg, with a big saddle bag. ;-)

flasher

andrewjoseph wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

andrewjoseph wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

You're actually suggesting that rim brakes, and road traction, on a road bike are powerful enough to flip you over the handlebars? I reckon that's probably nonsense even for a light rider in perfect braking conditions. It's absolutely utter rubbish for a heavy rider in wet conditions

I have, only reason I didn't hurt myself too badly is the busstop took the impact, not the road. For several meters I was riding on my front wheel trying to avoid the kid on his bike who hopped onto the road without looking. If I'd squeezed a bit harder/longer I'd have been on the road. I took the risk to ease off the brakes and take out a perspex sheet instead.

And yes, I was well braced, bum behind saddle to such an extent I had the brooke's logo imprinted above my pubic bone.

You can see the pro's do it often when they slow for a crash.

I would suggest if you can't do a stoppie on your bike, regardless of brake system, you need to get them sorted.

My pushed in two front teeth and upcoming £2k dental bill, broken nose and fractured hand, not to mention a cracked Prevail helmet are proof that at 66kg, cresting the top of a very slight downhill at sub 15mph, in the dry, in the spring, using Super Record caliper brakes and Fulcrum Zero wheels you CAN slam on the front and go head first over the bars and hit the tarmac.

I'm 80 kg, with a big saddle bag. ;-)

Don't talk nonsense, you've already been told that it's just not possible, you must have discs otherwise you're behind the shopping curve

andrewjoseph

Flasher wrote:

andrewjoseph wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

andrewjoseph wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

You're actually suggesting that rim brakes, and road traction, on a road bike are powerful enough to flip you over the handlebars? I reckon that's probably nonsense even for a light rider in perfect braking conditions. It's absolutely utter rubbish for a heavy rider in wet conditions

I have, only reason I didn't hurt myself too badly is the busstop took the impact, not the road. For several meters I was riding on my front wheel trying to avoid the kid on his bike who hopped onto the road without looking. If I'd squeezed a bit harder/longer I'd have been on the road. I took the risk to ease off the brakes and take out a perspex sheet instead.

And yes, I was well braced, bum behind saddle to such an extent I had the brooke's logo imprinted above my pubic bone.

You can see the pro's do it often when they slow for a crash.

I would suggest if you can't do a stoppie on your bike, regardless of brake system, you need to get them sorted.

My pushed in two front teeth and upcoming £2k dental bill, broken nose and fractured hand, not to mention a cracked Prevail helmet are proof that at 66kg, cresting the top of a very slight downhill at sub 15mph, in the dry, in the spring, using Super Record caliper brakes and Fulcrum Zero wheels you CAN slam on the front and go head first over the bars and hit the tarmac.

I'm 80 kg, with a big saddle bag. ;-)

Don't talk nonsense, you've already been told that it's just not possible, you must have discs otherwise you're behind the shopping curve

This incident was on my first Gen boardman comp with crap tektro brakes.

I've got disks on my now 5 yr old custom road/ Tourer, so I'm a trend setter, not a follower. ;-)

ugo.santalucia

This thread has derailed... there is no doubt in my mind that a better set of brakes can only be a good thing. It takes a bit of getting used to them, but I would rather have modern brakes than 1970s Weinmann. IF disc brakes are better than caliper, then it can only be a good thing. Flipping over the bars is a possibility but also clearly an operator error. I would not be worried about having better brakes just in case this resulted in flipping over the bars... if you have stronger brakes, you learn how to use them... the extra power will come in handy eventually.

Would you buy a car with 30 bhp so you are sure you don't exceed the national speed limit? Clearly not, you buy one that has 100 and learn ho to use it

Brakes get better, tyres get bigger and better, it all goes hand in hand...

dodgy

If disc brakes were standard on all bikes, even 100 years ago, and tomorrow someone invented rim brakes. What would take up be like?

neeb

dodgy wrote:

If disc brakes were standard on all bikes, even 100 years ago, and tomorrow someone invented rim brakes. What would take up be like?

The weird thing is that I can actually imagine that situation and the marketing people trying to convince everyone that rim brakes were better..

"With the innovative new rim brake technology you can dispense entirely with the extra weight of the disks by using the rim of the wheel itself as the braking surface - it's already there, and it provides a much larger surface area, thus heat is dissipated much better. The callipers can be positioned and shaped to fit in better with the airflow over the bike, so saving precious aerodynamic watts, and of course there are no disks to disrupt the airflow either. Furthermore, hydraulic systems are not required for efficient operation so the STI levers can be made much lighter and slimmer, and the system is easier to install and maintain".

People would doubtless soon discover the considerably inferior performance in the wet, but that didn't stop people buying carbon rims over alu, did it?

ugo.santalucia

Rim brakes were sold as an upgrade to tyre breaks. For some reason drums were never very popular on road bikes, weight probably...

neeb

Actually now I come to think about it, maybe the marketing of the whole carbon wheel thing was just to make rim braking worse and so pave the way for the marketing of disc brakes...

btiratsoo

neeb wrote:

Actually now I come to think about it, maybe the marketing of the whole carbon wheel thing was just to make rim braking worse and so pave the way for the marketing of disc brakes...

It is all a massive conspiracy.

frisbee

btiratsoo wrote:

neeb wrote:

Actually now I come to think about it, maybe the marketing of the whole carbon wheel thing was just to make rim braking worse and so pave the way for the marketing of disc brakes...

It is all a massive conspiracy.

Round wheels are a conspiracy, triangular wheels are all a non-professional cyclist needs, preferably made from granite.

neeb

btiratsoo wrote:

neeb wrote:

Actually now I come to think about it, maybe the marketing of the whole carbon wheel thing was just to make rim braking worse and so pave the way for the marketing of disc brakes...

It is all a massive conspiracy.

Just for the record, while I'm sure that the marketing people DO conspire to sell us as much stuff as possible, i wasn't being serious - I wouldn't credit them with that much strategic planning ability...

Initialised

I've been riding road with discs for nearly 2 years, the last 9 months I've been using hydraulics.

- Pads much less convenient to replace than cartridge rim brake blocks, and much more expensive.

Not really, they are very easy to replace and require less adjustment (will depend on the caliper). Most Shimano and TRP systems take the same pads so generic unbranded pads are fairly cheap and branded are cheap anyway.

-Hydraulic lines sound like a comparative nightmare to service when air inevitably gets into them.

DOT-3 (SRAM/AVID) is a pain to bleed and needs to be done every so often, mineral oil (TRP/Shimano) is easy, pretty much fit and forget, it can be messy but isn't difficult and doesn't need doing often. Typically if you change your frame (need shorter or longer cables) of snap a joint in a crash.

- Cable disks seem to be a pain to align with the rotor as wheel is replaced, pad wears etc (or at least were on my old mtb)

Depends, single pull cable discs take a lot of adjustment over the life of the pads, dual pull (TRP Spyre) should stay aligned.

-Pads are wrecked if you get lube in them, you have to cover or remove the pads when spraying the chain with lube (a right pain if you do this every week).

I found that if I sprayed GT 85 over the chain I'd have poor braking on the start of the next ride but it came back quickly using the breaking in technique as you do with new pads. Now I take the chain off the bike to clean it to prevent this.

-Currently limited choice of disk wheels on the market, and the odd position of QR vs Thru axle hubs for now, it would be annoying to say the least if you ended up with a disk capable frame that takes the betamaxx style loser if it goes one way in a couple of years.

Yes, there may be a standards war but 135mm with standard QR will be around for ever, 19mm thru axle is probably a good bet as well. You can often get away with MTB 29err wheels, especially if you want to make the most of the enhanced braking performance with a bigger contact patch from a wide rim without adding tyre weight.

meanredspider

Agree with all above. I don't even think about my disc brakes from a maintenance point of view. In fact, with discs and Di2, about the only thing I need to concern myself with is keeping the chain in order.

veronese68

I also agree with all of that. Can't remember the last time I looked at my brakes, now that I think about it I should probably have a look to see how much material there is left.

homers_double

After this mornings ride I need to see how much rim material is left...

sigorman85

And here they come !!!

http://road.cc/content/buyers-guide/141 ... road-bikes

btiratsoo

Hello all

As I posted a while ago I would attempt to do a comparison between Ultegra 11 speed calliper brakes with Ksyrium SLRs and the new 140mm hydraulic road discs from Shimano.

In short, the discs are phenomenal!

In the dry, there isn't much difference if I'm completely honest. There is something there but I don't really know how to describe it. I suppose the best way is to say that they are more positive.

In the wet however, there is absolutely no comparison. Discs hands down. Not from a power perspective but from a crap on the rim perspective. They just work, consistently - no ifs, no buts. You want to stop, you squeeze the lever and you stop.

I will attempt to write a bike mag style comparison after a few more miles with plenty of garbage reasoning and exotic adjectives after a few more miles.

noodleman

No amount of arguing about the pro's and cons will convince anyone until they try them. I'm a recent convert and i see no downside whatsoever except a slight weight penalty.

ai_1

noodleman wrote:

No amount of arguing about the pro's and cons will convince anyone until they try them. I'm a recent convert and i see no downside whatsoever except a slight weight penalty.

I think the pros and cons will convince plenty people. However there are also a cohort with rather entrenched views who really really seem to reject change on principle. Those may only be convinced by trying them, or perhaps not even then. Thankfully that group is almost certainly too small to influence adoption of disk brakes.

neeb

I think it's an increasingly small and entrenched minority that would argue that disks don't have benefits. But that's not the point, the question is whether they are the best solution for ALL bikes, and if not, what bikes.

Basically, the significant advantages come in the wet, but if your "best" bike is hardly ever ridden in the wet, do you really want the faff, weight and complexity of disks on it?

Maybe in 5 years time all road bikes will have disks, or maybe the high end race machines will stick with calipers and we will all have a wet weather bike and a dry bike instead of a summer bike and a winter bike. It will all depend on the UCI I suppose...

noodleman

Although it is an advantage to have disc brakes in the wet, there are other useful benefits too. Out of true wheels don't cause brake rub, no more carbon rim wear, no worries about innertubes going pop from overheated rims and much more progressive, controllable braking in the dry. It simply is better.

keezx

Nothing against a brake system, but it's the conversion to motorbikes without motor that i do not like.
I don't want motorbike brakes, in my racing career (10 years) I hardly wore out 1 set brake pads
I don't want motorbike axles.
I don't want electrics.
I don't want hydraulics.

Fuck the Americans, why can't they leave the bicycle to be a bicycle.

gweeds

Brake stop the wheel. Tyres stop the bike.