Disc or caliper brakes?

sigorman85

Recently sold my Planet X as I would like a new bike for the new year or spring time .. Any way I have noticed that a lot of bikes have disc brakes now hydrolic and cable.. Surely the amount of force and heat from a disc brake isn't to good for the frame ?

Few things that stand out for me is where is the brake reservoir going to be and service is going to be a pain rite?
So is it a case of sticking to what I no as calipers are pretty straight forward

I quite like the look of the new 2015 de rosa idol disc but it's early days and I'm sure there is going to be further problems as I herd sram had a recall on all of there new disc brake system

kajjal

Hydraulic disc brakes not only have a lot more braking power they also have a lot more feel / modulation. Wet weather has very little if any impact on their performance. In real terms this means you can brake a lot later and using the brakes takes almost no effort. Frames and forks are designed to take the strains. Heat is no issue unless you are very heavy and drag the brakes down a very long steep drop or the brake fluid becomes contaminated.

The downside is on road bikes they are a lot more expensive than rim brakes so you may prefer a better spec and rim brakes.

veronese68

If you ride in all weathers I'd go disc, I would say that as I have done. Dry weather only calipers are good enough.
There are a few different standards for disc brake hubs but if you go for a 135mm quick release rear and a quick release or 15mm bolt through front there are so many of them out there there will never be a problem getting replacements.

homers_double

Have ridden MTB for years and recently bought a road bike I know my next bike will be disc ready.

Modulation, feel and improved braking in wet conditions all make them a no brainer.

@ the OP, youe don't just stick a disc brake on a standardframe, the redesigned tubes will be stress tested and treated to cope with the additional forces, as for heat. Yes there is a build up in the rotor but as theses are well vented they doo cool quite quickly. That said don't use your finger at the bottom of a 5 mile hill to see how hot they got.

w00dster

I'm not overly sure there is a need for disc brakes on road bikes.
I have both, Ultegra brakes on my good weather bike and disc on my cross bike (used as a commuter, winter bike and off road rides).
That said it is relatively flat around where I ride (Bucks/Bedfordshire/Northants), but my Ultegra brakes work fine all year round. As long as they are maintained, rims and brakes cleaned after rides, then they work absolutely fine.
The disc brakes on my cross bike are good, mine are just cable brakes. They work well, stop the bike in all conditions, but I wouldn't say for road use they are a necessity or that much of an improvement over a well maintained decent set up. I have ridden MTB with Hydaulic Discs, fantastic on a MTB riding off road - but again I don't see the need for these on road. My singlespeed has 105 brakes, again work fine. More concentration is required for wet weather rides, but thats a given.
If I could only have one bike, I would go with a higher spec full groupset, minimum being Ultegra rather than disc brakes running Sora or the like.

homers_double

The grating sound my rims made on the way home from work the other day almost brought me to tears.

No such sadness with a good disc brake.

Sorry but 99% of roadies are firmly in the "rim brakes for ever camp" and will always refuse change. MTBers were like "whoa discs... now we can brake later and do mad skids and stuff"!!!

florerider

or roadies can't understand the obsession with slowing down

simon_masterson

The facts are pretty simple: disc brakes work better. Personally, I use calipers. I like calipers. They work very well and are very simple to look after. I think some of those that complain about wet braking aren't doing it very effectively (try Weinmanns with two tone pads on steel rims), but discs do definitely offer better performance. I wouldn't modify my old bikes for it any more than I would want a modern bike to take downtube shifters, but if I were in the market for a high end carbon bike and had the option, I'd definitely take it. Why wouldn't I?

But I don't buy the idea of road cyclists hanging onto rim braking any more than mechanical shifting. As soon as it's being used at grand tour level, it'll be a must-have. I have no reason to believe that it won't become standard on the top groupsets, before trickling down, at which point good frames and wheels will be disc specific and the technology available at all price points, and calipers will be something you put on 'old' bikes.

sigorman85

Anyone got a idea where the reservoir is on the shifters

TheHound

Kajjal wrote:

Hydraulic disc brakes not only have a lot more braking power

This pisses me off every time I read it. Discussions about disc brakes invariably involve that 1 ridiculous sentence over and over.

keith57

Disks for winter, commuting, touring, fatter tyres, beginners who like to ride the brakes all the time: definitely.

Summer, dry roads, want to go as fast as possible, skinny tires (21c tubs), clear roads, no cars, hardly use the brakes anyway, DA callipers can lock my front carbon wheel up anytime I want in the dry … tricky choice.

Callipers for me on my posh bike(s).

Will be getting a disk bike for cruddy weather on the Audax style bike, with mudguards

iron-clover

There are pros and cons to each really- I would like a disk equipped 'cross bike in the near future for cross riding/ racing and general workhorse duties once the cross season is finished.

The biggest advantages I see of disks:
- Better modulation for the cost of the unit, generally better braking power but not a given.
-More reliable in the wet
-Won't grind away your rims
(The last 2 being most important for me!)

Disadvantages:
- Pads much less convenient to replace than cartridge rim brake blocks, and much more expensive.
-Hydraulic lines sound like a comparative nightmare to service when air inevitably gets into them.
- Cable disks seem to be a pain to align with the rotor as wheel is replaced, pad wears etc (or at least were on my old mtb)
-Pads are wrecked if you get lube in them, you have to cover or remove the pads when spraying the chain with lube (a right pain if you do this every week).
-Currently limited choice of disk wheels on the market, and the odd position of QR vs Thru axle hubs for now, it would be annoying to say the least if you ended up with a disk capable frame that takes the betamaxx style loser if it goes one way in a couple of years.

Personally I find standard brakes are good enough for what I want them to do, even cheapo Tiagra calipers, and I don't mind having to replace a cheap (<£80) wheelset every couple of years once the rims wear out as well as the brake cartridges as they are comparatively easy for me to service. It could be that modern disk brakes are much easier to work with nowerdays, but if they are still as fiddly to work with as the couple of mechanical calipers I had to work with back in the day then rim brakes still have a lot going for them on the maintenance front.

kajjal

TheHound wrote:

Kajjal wrote:

Hydraulic disc brakes not only have a lot more braking power

This pisses me off every time I read it. Discussions about disc brakes invariably involve that 1 ridiculous sentence over and over.

It's true they have several times more braking power which is where the better modulation and control comes from. Braking is about controlled power and feel not locking up wheels.

TheHound

Kajjal wrote:

TheHound wrote:

Kajjal wrote:

Hydraulic disc brakes not only have a lot more braking power

This pisses me off every time I read it. Discussions about disc brakes invariably involve that 1 ridiculous sentence over and over.

It's true they have several times more braking power which is where the better modulation and control comes from. Braking is about controlled power and feel not locking up wheels.

Wrong and misleading.

Power and modulation are 2 entirely separate entities.

Power is limited by the tire's contact patch. Which is why slamming on the front brake on rim brakes will send you over the bars, or doing so on the rear will cause that to skid (assuming it's dry conditions).

Modulation is far better with discs for sure.

stueys

Keith57 wrote:

Disks for winter, commuting, touring, fatter tyres, beginners who like to ride the brakes all the time: definitely.

Summer, dry roads, want to go as fast as possible, skinny tires (21c tubs), clear roads, no cars, hardly use the brakes anyway, DA callipers can lock my front carbon wheel up anytime I want in the dry … tricky choice.

Callipers for me on my posh bike(s).

Will be getting a disk bike for cruddy weather on the Audax style bike, with mudguards

This. Disc brakes on my winter bike which also has full guards and nice 28 wide tyres. Works brilliantly when it's wet (ie all the time now) and continues to work brilliantly even when the wheels are covered in winter crap (ie all the time now).

Nice DA calipers on my nice bike. Would I swap for discs on my nice bike? Nope, I prefer the look of calipers and they are also lighter. They also work just as well as discs in the dry.

But if I only had one bike that I used in all conditions, then it would have discs on it. Once you've ridden discs in the wet you don't want to go back to calipers.

Ber Nard

iron-clover wrote:

There are pros and cons to each really- I would like a disk equipped 'cross bike in the near future for cross riding/ racing and general workhorse duties once the cross season is finished.

The biggest advantages I see of disks:
- Better modulation for the cost of the unit, generally better braking power but not a given.
-More reliable in the wet
-Won't grind away your rims
(The last 2 being most important for me!)

Disadvantages:
- Pads much less convenient to replace than cartridge rim brake blocks, and much more expensive.
They're easy to replace, even with the wheel in. And with hydros that adjust for pad wear, there's no need to adjust the brake to get the lever pull back to where it was.
-Hydraulic lines sound like a comparative nightmare to service when air inevitably gets into them.
Sounds like it but isn't in practice. Bleeds are seldom needed.
- Cable disks seem to be a pain to align with the rotor as wheel is replaced, pad wears etc (or at least were on my old mtb)
Mostly affects single piston callipers which I can see going the way of the Dodo and largely down to poor initial installation.
-Pads are wrecked if you get lube in them, you have to cover or remove the pads when spraying the chain with lube (a right pain if you do this every week).
If you watch what you're doing you're not going to get chain lube on a disc brake calliper - it's on the other side of the bike. Spraying lube on a rim brake pad isn't clever either.
-Currently limited choice of disk wheels on the market, and the odd position of QR vs Thru axle hubs for now, it would be annoying to say the least if you ended up with a disk capable frame that takes the betamaxx style loser if it goes one way in a couple of years.
A fair point but look at the number of BB "standards" there are. You just stick with the one you've got. All axle types are still supported in the MTB world.

Personally I find standard brakes are good enough for what I want them to do, even cheapo Tiagra calipers, and I don't mind having to replace a cheap (<£80) wheelset every couple of years once the rims wear out as well as the brake cartridges as they are comparatively easy for me to service. It could be that modern disk brakes are much easier to work with nowerdays, but if they are still as fiddly to work with as the couple of mechanical calipers I had to work with back in the day then rim brakes still have a lot going for them on the maintenance front.

kajjal

TheHound wrote:

Kajjal wrote:

TheHound wrote:

Kajjal wrote:

Hydraulic disc brakes not only have a lot more braking power

This pisses me off every time I read it. Discussions about disc brakes invariably involve that 1 ridiculous sentence over and over.

It's true they have several times more braking power which is where the better modulation and control comes from. Braking is about controlled power and feel not locking up wheels.

Wrong and misleading.

Power and modulation are 2 entirely separate entities.

Power is limited by the tire's contact patch. Which is why slamming on the front brake on rim brakes will send you over the bars, or doing so on the rear will cause that to skid (assuming it's dry conditions).

Modulation is far better with discs for sure.

Braking power has nothing to do with traction on the road. The braking force on discs is several times that of rim brakes and that is where the feel or modulation comes from. How effectively you can stop is due to traction and the control / feel you have over the braking force. Using disc brakes I can brake a lot later with a lot more control than rim brakes.

peat

Keith57 wrote:

DA callipers can lock my front carbon wheel up anytime I want in the dry … tricky choice.

That's the whole point, you want to be able to brake as hard as possible without locking. Hydraulic discs allow you to feel the limit alot easier. With calipers, you have to pull on so hard that you haven't a chance to release them in time, the the right degree.

Certainly, in my experience, when the rim brake develops a bit of temperature, they become very 'grabby'.

---

My next roadie will have discs, no question. The pros far outweigh the cons and i'm used to working with them from my various MTB's. I'm a way off needing a new bike unfortunately, but by that time hopefully they will have the integration a little more sorted than they are now and the prices will have come down.

roux_guy

Being a new 'roadie', my first road bike came with Tektro calipers and pads and needless to say, I was a huge admirer of disc brakes for road bikes! I've since replaced the calipers with Shimano B650s and the pads with Swiss Stop greens and, unsurprisingly, now I'm no where near as convinced - rim brakes can be pretty damn good :-).

kajjal

Roux_guy wrote:

Being a new 'roadie', my first road bike came with Tektro calipers and pads and needless to say, I was a huge admirer of disc brakes for road bikes! I've since replaced the calipers with Shimano B650s and the pads with Swiss Stop greens and, unsurprisingly, now I'm no where near as convinced - rim brakes can be pretty damn good :-).

Did the same on my wife's bike which was a huge improvement. The stock Tektro brakes on some bikes are very poor.

keith57

Peat wrote:

Keith57 wrote:

DA callipers can lock my front carbon wheel up anytime I want in the dry … tricky choice.

That's the whole point, you want to be able to brake as hard as possible without locking. Hydraulic discs allow you to feel the limit alot easier. With calipers, you have to pull on so hard that you haven't a chance to release them in time, the the right degree.

Certainly, in my experience, when the rim brake develops a bit of temperature, they become very 'grabby'.

---

My next roadie will have discs, no question. The pros far outweigh the cons and i'm used to working with them from my various MTB's. I'm a way off needing a new bike unfortunately, but by that time hopefully they will have the integration a little more sorted than they are now and the prices will have come down.

What I really meant is that a good rim setup, latest DA in my case, gives me brilliant braking, modulation, stopping power, etc. The limiting factor is the size of the contact patch on the road, which is quite small on a road bike compared to touring or mountain bikes. Also, when descending, mountain bikers are on the brakes all or most of the time. On the road, ridden by an experienced rider, the brakes just don't get used the same amount and are used to scrub off a small amont of speed from time to time. If you feel you need disks on a pure sports road bike then I think it says something about your riding style ;-) I am talking about ridding where traffic isn't an issue and brakes are mostly used on long fast descents. In an urban environment then things are probably a lot different. So for my style of riding, in the dry, rims have definite pro's over disks.

TheHound

^^^^

My point. You can have all the braking power in the world. But it has no where to go.

So saying disc brakes are more powerful is down right wrong and misleading.

kajjal

TheHound wrote:

^^^^

My point. You can have all the braking power in the world. But it has no where to go.

So saying disc brakes are more powerful is down right wrong and misleading.

Disc brakes are more powerful, the braking force at the disc is several times greater than on the rims for rim brakes. Another issue with rim brakes is wet weather really impacts their use which is not the case for disc brakes. Also if you really pull rim brakes on the cable stretch reduces their effectiveness still further, hydraulic disks also don't have this problems.

From the additional power range and consistent braking force also comes the much better feel and modulation with little physical effort from the rider. This means you can brake a lot more effectively as you not only have the power but also the control, leading to better control of the bike all round. This is more obviously a benefit for mountain biking and commuting but you really notice the difference even on a road ride through the country lanes on steep drops twisting through villages.

A road bike works fine with rim brakes and often will be cheaper or higher spec'ed than the equivalent disc braked bike but that does not mean disc brakes are not more powerful and don't work better especially in the wet or if you need to brake hard a lot while keeping control of the bike.

btiratsoo

I can't fail to see how disc brakes on a road bike are a bad thing. I am 104kg and ride in all weathers in and around Southampton/ Winchester and the South Downs. I have Mavic Ksyrium SLRs with the fancy Exalith coating and grooved brake track. The brakes are Ultegra (new 11 speed) with Mavic Exalith pads. The brakes are pathetic in the wet and not amazing in the dry, even using the pads to disperse the water before actually braking I find stopping to be very difficult.
It was hammering with rain a couple of weeks ago and I just carried on moving when I braked for a junction. Luckily it was a turn off so I just cruised passed. It was like the rims were oiled. I have yet to try discs on a road bike but I can't wait to test ride one and compare.

How Far is too Far

Try having to brake in an emergence at 40+ Mph when going down a steep hill.

A good disk set up will and does stop you quicker. I have tried it. Sram Red Caliper Vs Sram Force Hydro. Not a scientific test but I braked at the same speed on the same hill at the same sign post. The disk bike stopped in just over half the distance the calliper bike stopped. Same tyres same rider, dry road etc.

flasher

There's always much more to it than just having kit, I'm sure discs are great, however bad riding/road craft/technique is massively overlooked. Brakes have very little to do with accidents!

Smooth riding is a massive skill, shame that's not sold by Wiggle.

btiratsoo

Flasher wrote:

There's always much more to it than just having kit, I'm sure discs are great, however bad riding/road craft/technique is massively overlooked. Brakes have very little to do with accidents!

Smooth riding is a massive skill, shame that's not sold by Wiggle.

Yes smooth riding helps. Better brakes help even more.

flasher

btiratsoo wrote:

Yes smooth riding helps. Better brakes help even more.

Help with what, when was the last time you had an accident because your bike didn't stop a metre sooner?

I ride a reasonable amount and I don't see massive pileups wherever I go, I'm guessing brakes are working ok.

btiratsoo

Smooth is the wrong word. Aware would have been a better choice.

TheHound

Kajjal wrote:

TheHound wrote:

^^^^

My point. You can have all the braking power in the world. But it has no where to go.

So saying disc brakes are more powerful is down right wrong and misleading.

Disc brakes are more powerful, the braking force at the disc is several times greater than on the rims for rim brakes. Another issue with rim brakes is wet weather really impacts their use which is not the case for disc brakes. Also if you really pull rim brakes on the cable stretch reduces their effectiveness still further, hydraulic disks also don't have this problems.

From the additional power range and consistent braking force also comes the much better feel and modulation with little physical effort from the rider. This means you can brake a lot more effectively as you not only have the power but also the control, leading to better control of the bike all round. This is more obviously a benefit for mountain biking and commuting but you really notice the difference even on a road ride through the country lanes on steep drops twisting through villages.

A road bike works fine with rim brakes and often will be cheaper or higher spec'ed than the equivalent disc braked bike but that does not mean disc brakes are not more powerful and don't work better especially in the wet or if you need to brake hard a lot while keeping control of the bike.

Ok, sure lol.

simon_masterson

Flasher wrote:

There's always much more to it than just having kit, I'm sure discs are great, however bad riding/road craft/technique is massively overlooked. Brakes have very little to do with accidents!

Smooth riding is a massive skill, shame that's not sold by Wiggle.

This, and effective braking technique. Even the basic kit of today is massively, massively, massively superior to the dreadful old Weinmanns and the like of yesteryear. There just isn't any comparison, and that's before you add steel rims to the mix.