Disc or caliper brakes?

meanredspider

sigorman85 wrote:

I've just placed a order for the de rosa idol 2015 with 11speed ultegra

Disc or not?

sigorman85

Disc

flasher

meanredspider wrote:

LOL at the "heavier clunker" comment!

Glad you liked that, it does look a lovely bike and very rare too.

meanredspider wrote:

Seriously, though, Alpe D'HuZes is an entirely different proposition from riding "a few Alp's [sic]". For starters there are around 5000 people on the hill at the same time. Mixed with that the road is open so cars, vans and lorries, escorted by motorbikes, are descending with the riders and are much slower through the hairpins. Mix in with it that most of the riders are Dutch and, by definition, generally not familiar with 12km 8-12% descents and brakes are suddenly a lot more important. Fortunately the rain that had been forecast the week before didn't materialise (I can't begin to imagine what the descents would have been like). There's also the mental angle - that's a long descent: all the time you're descending you're thinking "in a few minutes I'm turning straight around and riding back up this". The quicker you get down the less time you have to think about this, the more time you have to do the 6 climbs.

Faced with the same choice again (and I've said I'll do AD6 again this year though I'm not sure I'm going to be able to) I'd absolutely make the same decision. And it's ALL about the brakes. I adore descending (my riding buddies refer to me as "Bomber" for that very reason) - I love leaving my braking as late as possible and carving through the corners (I race cars too). Give me disc brakes every time.

I have to say that sounds like a good reason to stay away and choose another time to ride it, the same reason that I don't do and can't stand sportives............but that's another story.

meanredspider

Flasher wrote:

Glad you liked that, it does look a lovely bike and very rare too.


I have to say that sounds like a good reason to stay away and choose another time to ride it, the same reason that I don't do and can't stand sportives............but that's another story.

Thank you for the comments on the bike - I adore it and I rarely recommend Volagi on bike threads because I also love how rare it is :oops: . But I can thoroughly recommend them - lovely bunch of people and great great bikes.

Alpe D'HuZes (AD6) isn't a sportif but a Dutch cancer charity event - 6 times up the Alpe in a day. In many ways it's much much harder than Sportives or races that I've done. Physically it's obviously challenging to all but the fittest folk. But, beyond that, it's also mentally and emotionally challenging. Mentally because you're covering the same ground over and over. And emotionally because it's all about cancer and that's very overt - far more so than your typical charity ride. Each hairpin has hundreds of candles lit to lost loved ones and huge banners. People ride for mothers, fathers, siblings, sons, daughters, spouses. My son is a cancer survivor and I've lost lots of people in the last 4 years. I cried quite a few times on my way up. It's a tough tough day. The motto of the charity is "Giving up is not an option" - very apt. Like many others, I had the names of those I was riding for on the crossbar - there was never a moment that I doubted I'd make it to the top of that 6th climb.

meanredspider

sigorman85 wrote:

Disc

Great choice. I'm sure you'll love the bike too - looks lovely

sigorman85

I live on portland and for anyone that knows it the hill to the top isn't pleasant so when coming back down I have to get on the brakes as there are a few hair pin corners with cars and lorrys so I would like the extra braking power if it's there or not il find out sooner rather than later

ben@31

How many roadie critics of hydraulic disc brakes have actually tried them?

I've gone from road bikes with rim brakes over the past few years and I too were convinced disc brakes were a gimmick.

A few weeks ago I bought my first MTB with hydraulic disc brakes. Rode it for the past few days.

Then went out on my road bike again, part of the route was down a hill.

What a f'ing difference braking down a hill ! Going back to the road bike rim brakes, feels like something is wrong and they're not working. The difference is phenomenal.

I eat my hat and now stand corrected.

sigorman85

Least you admit it some people won't

Dippydog3

My winter road bike has disc brakes.

They make my Ultegra rim brakes on my summer bike feel as effective as grabbing your wheel with gloves to slow down. Disc wins.
The bike frame is easier to clean, but the rotors and pads are more fussy to clean. Draw.
The wheel is slower to fit, as it has thru axles. Rim wins.
They are harder to set up and adjust than pads, but don't seem to need much fiddling with. Draw.
Weight and aero are not significantly different. Draw.
No rim wear. Disc wins.

So for me disc wins and therefore my next summer bike will have them.

You may have different priorities.

Jon_1976

ben@31 wrote:

How many roadie critics of hydraulic disc brakes have actually tried them?

I've gone from road bikes with rim brakes over the past few years and I too were convinced disc brakes were a gimmick.

A few weeks ago I bought my first MTB with hydraulic disc brakes. Rode it for the past few days.

Then went out on my road bike again, part of the route was down a hill.

What a f'ing difference braking down a hill ! Going back to the road bike rim brakes, feels like something is wrong and they're not working. The difference is phenomenal.

I eat my hat and now stand corrected.

I don't think thats a fair comparison. The centre of gravity is more rearwards on a mtb so you can apply the front brake more heavily without being fired over the handle bars. I've locked the front wheel on a mtb (fair enough it was on a wet road with knobbly mtb tyres). Unless the road is really wet, greasy or icy you'll be flying over the bars before you exceed the grip of the front wheel, on a road bike. Ive had this happen and it wasn't fun lol.

meanredspider

Dippydog3 wrote:

My winter road bike has disc brakes.

They make my Ultegra rim brakes on my summer bike feel as effective as grabbing your wheel with gloves to slow down. Disc wins.
The bike frame is easier to clean, but the rotors and pads are more fussy to clean. Draw.
The wheel is slower to fit, as it has thru axles. Rim wins.
They are harder to set up and adjust than pads, but don't seem to need much fiddling with. Draw.
Weight and aero are not significantly different. Draw.
No rim wear. Disc wins.

So for me disc wins and therefore my next summer bike will have them.

You may have different priorities.

I'd agree with most of this. I really don't think thru axles are necessary - I don't have them and certainly wouldn't specify them on a new bike: I've never once thought I need them.
I've also never needed to spend any time setting up the calipers - even less with hydraulic.

kajjal

ben@31 wrote:

How many roadie critics of hydraulic disc brakes have actually tried them?

I've gone from road bikes with rim brakes over the past few years and I too were convinced disc brakes were a gimmick.

A few weeks ago I bought my first MTB with hydraulic disc brakes. Rode it for the past few days.

Then went out on my road bike again, part of the route was down a hill.

What a f'ing difference braking down a hill ! Going back to the road bike rim brakes, feels like something is wrong and they're not working. The difference is phenomenal.

I eat my hat and now stand corrected.

This is exactly what I find. I went out on my mountain bike in the recent winds as it is more stable and the brakes were a big improvement. Back in the road bike and it feels like some one has stolen my brakes, especially downhill.

nibby

Have just gone fully Hydraulic on a new cx bike.

The reason was that I nearly killed myself coming down Wrynose Pass before xmas on the winter bike with tiagra. It was wet and I ended up having to walk down most of the way after the brakes shall we say were less than good

The difference is night and day.

It's the future. I reckon we will see them being used by the pros within 2 yrs.

If you ride during the winter and or in the wet and like to do big steep descents then for me it's a no brainer.

flasher

nibby wrote:

It's the future. I reckon we will see them being used by the pros within 2 yrs.

We'll see.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/01/ ... ing_357319

meanredspider

Flasher wrote:

We'll see.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/01/ ... ing_357319

Interesting that his concern is partly centred on disc brakes being so much better for effectiveness than rims.

nibby

Ha ha... I remember them saying the same thing about electronic shifting "it'll never happen" they said

Flasher wrote:

nibby wrote:

It's the future. I reckon we will see them being used by the pros within 2 yrs.

We'll see.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/01/ ... ing_357319

How Far is too Far

Strange that a good few posts on here say there rim brakes are as good as disks ;-)

I have Sram Force Hydro on my CX bike and it does seem to stop quick when I want it to.

kajjal

meanredspider wrote:

Flasher wrote:

We'll see.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/01/ ... ing_357319

Interesting that his concern is partly centred on disc brakes being so much better for effectiveness than rims.

His concern makes sense if you consider the high speed they go at and the tight spacing. If a rider in front has disk brakes and brakes very hard the rim brake riders will not be able to brake in time and go right through him.

meanredspider

Kajjal wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Flasher wrote:

We'll see.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/01/ ... ing_357319

Interesting that his concern is partly centred on disc brakes being so much better for effectiveness than rims.

His concern makes sense if you consider the high speed they go at and the tight spacing. If a rider in front has disk brakes and brakes very hard the rim brake riders will not be able to brake in time and go right through him.

For sure - my comment is in the context of many rim brake fans saying that they are as good as discs. His concern is that disc brakes are too good to mix with rim brakes. I think most of us that have ridden both systems know that discs are better so it's interesting to hear someone saying what he said...

ai_1

Jon_1976 wrote:

ben@31 wrote:

How many roadie critics of hydraulic disc brakes have actually tried them?

I've gone from road bikes with rim brakes over the past few years and I too were convinced disc brakes were a gimmick.

A few weeks ago I bought my first MTB with hydraulic disc brakes. Rode it for the past few days.

Then went out on my road bike again, part of the route was down a hill.

What a f'ing difference braking down a hill ! Going back to the road bike rim brakes, feels like something is wrong and they're not working. The difference is phenomenal.

I eat my hat and now stand corrected.

I don't think thats a fair comparison. The centre of gravity is more rearwards on a mtb so you can apply the front brake more heavily without being fired over the handle bars. I've locked the front wheel on a mtb (fair enough it was on a wet road with knobbly mtb tyres). Unless the road is really wet, greasy or icy you'll be flying over the bars before you exceed the grip of the front wheel, on a road bike. Ive had this happen and it wasn't fun lol.

Nonsense.
You're actually suggesting that rim brakes, and road traction, on a road bike are powerful enough to flip you over the handlebars? I reckon that's probably nonsense even for a light rider in perfect braking conditions. It's absolutely utter rubbish for a heavy rider in wet conditions. If you went over the bars braking I would suggest it's because you hadn't braced your arms, pulled the brakes hard, your arms bent shifting your weight forward, thus dumping you over the bars. That's unpleasant and dangerous but it's rider error, not an unavoidable consequence of pulling the front brake hard.

So, you're actually trying to convince us that the reason road bikes don't stop so well is because we can't use the full power of our existing rim brakes for fear of being ejected over the bars - absurd!

This is not a sound argument against rim brakes or a sound criticism of ben@31's comments. Incidentally, I agree his is not an apples to apples comparison but he never claimed it was.

sigorman85

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/10/disc- ... ture-hold/

andrewjoseph

Ai_1 wrote:

You're actually suggesting that rim brakes, and road traction, on a road bike are powerful enough to flip you over the handlebars? I reckon that's probably nonsense even for a light rider in perfect braking conditions. It's absolutely utter rubbish for a heavy rider in wet conditions

I have, only reason I didn't hurt myself too badly is the busstop took the impact, not the road. For several meters I was riding on my front wheel trying to avoid the kid on his bike who hopped onto the road without looking. If I'd squeezed a bit harder/longer I'd have been on the road. I took the risk to ease off the brakes and take out a perspex sheet instead.

And yes, I was well braced, bum behind saddle to such an extent I had the brooke's logo imprinted above my pubic bone.

You can see the pro's do it often when they slow for a crash.

I would suggest if you can't do a stoppie on your bike, regardless of brake system, you need to get them sorted.

neeb

Despite all of the debate and hype about discs, one thing that is remarkably difficult to find is objective comparisons between high-end road bikes with and without discs, from the point of view of people who have used both extensively for training and fast road riding. Clearly a major reason for this is that because disc brakes aren't used yet in pro or amateur road racing, people who race generally don't own them. Although there are some reviews of disc road bikes in magazines and on websites I basically don't trust any of them due to the massive amount of marketing being thrown at discs.

Obviously disc brakes work better than rim brakes. Equally obviously that extra functionality is going to be very useful in some situations (descending, riding in the wet, and especially descending in the wet), and almost completely pointless in others (riding on flat / rolling roads in dry summer conditions). The question is whether any disadvantages are sufficiently small that you would want to have discs on any bike, or on all of your bikes.

So, if you have a full-on race-geometry road bike with disks, how does it ride? Are you just as fast on familiar flat/rolling routes in dry conditions as on a similar non-disc bike? Does the bike handle just as well and feel just as lively? How does that beefier fork smooth out the potholes? People talk a lot about the theoretical magnitude of any disadvantages due to extra weight, poorer aerodynamics and the effect on handling of the different layups required to handle the stresses of disc braking, but at the end of the day if there are significant differences they should be fairly apparent in practice from the way the bike feels and your overall times /average speeds on familiar routes in normal summer conditions. At the end of the day if road bikes with discs are even marginally slower or don't handle as well as non-disc bikes then that's going to become apparent sooner or later, and a lot of people aren't going to adopt them however much they are hyped. But if they perform just as well and also brake better then they will doubtless take over completely in due course.

stueys

Discs will ultimately take over. I don't think neccesarily because of the performance advantage but mainly because it liberates the wheel manufacturers to actually design an aero trailing edge right to the edge of the rim without the compromises of a square braking track. The same consideration will also allow some weight to be taken from the wheel rim. THats tangible advantage.

Performance wise my DA9k calipers are just as good as the hydro discs I have on my winter bike in the dry both in terms of performance and modulation/feel. Wet or dirty rims are a different world as you would expect, I wouldn't not have discs on my winter bike now.

dodgy

Took my Kinesis Tripster ATR into the North Wales hills today, I now openly laugh at the mere suggestion that disc brakes aren't superior. Because they are, in just about every measurable way.

There, I said it.

meanredspider

neeb wrote:

So, if you have a full-on race-geometry road bike with disks, how does it ride? Are you just as fast on familiar flat/rolling routes in dry conditions as on a similar non-disc bike? Does the bike handle just as well and feel just as lively? How does that beefier fork smooth out the potholes? People talk a lot about the theoretical magnitude of any disadvantages due to extra weight, poorer aerodynamics and the effect on handling of the different layups required to handle the stresses of disc braking, but at the end of the day if there are significant differences they should be fairly apparent in practice from the way the bike feels and your overall times /average speeds on familiar routes in normal summer conditions. At the end of the day if road bikes with discs are even marginally slower or don't handle as well as non-disc bikes then that's going to become apparent sooner or later, and a lot of people aren't going to adopt them however much they are hyped. But if they perform just as well and also brake better then they will doubtless take over completely in due course.

Well, I'd say my Volagi and Foil are somewhat comparable from a quality/cost point of view. Whilst I don't consider myself anything like "elite" let alone pro in my cycling abilities, I also know that I'm not slow. When I bought the Foil 18 months ago, I expected it to quicker than the V (even if only by a small margin) over the undulating segments near me. In fact, I can't get a cigarette paper between them. I also chose the V for AD6 - the weight penalty going up was more than compensated by the braking coming down and the bike carves through the hairpins beautifully. The Foil is absolutely fine for the flat of N Holland where the brakes are only really needed for red lights in Amsterdam (and, no, not THOSE red light :roll: ). Ironically, though, the weight penalty that my current mechanical discs have on the V would also be irrelevant on the flat.

The bottom line is, in a like-for-like choice, I'd always take discs.

sigorman85

Wow this has turned into sonething

stueys

sigorman85 wrote:

Wow this has turned into sonething

Fairly typical forum fare, we've a group of people who all have disc bikes giving positive feedback whilst a group of people who have never riden discs furiously question them

Roberto di Velo

At the risk of interrupting this circular argument, I wondered if anyone had any experience of Sram's hydraulic rim brakes?

I've seen them offered as an option and wondered whether they were a decent halfway house. Agree that discs are probably the way forward, with the only real downside being cost and to a lesser extent, weight.

frisbee

Roberto di Velo wrote:

At the risk of interrupting this circular argument, I wondered if anyone had any experience of Sram's hydraulic rim brakes?

I've seen them offered as an option and wondered whether they were a decent halfway house. Agree that discs are probably the way forward, with the only real downside being cost and to a lesser extent, weight.

My main reasons for looking at disc brakes for my next bike (winter/commuting) are wet weather performance and immunity to mucky roads (which result in the horrible screeching/grinding noise that you can tell are destroying your rims).

So I'm not sure that hydraulic rim brakes are an option.