Disc or caliper brakes?

thegreatdivide

Simon Masterson wrote:

Flasher wrote:

There's always much more to it than just having kit, I'm sure discs are great, however bad riding/road craft/technique is massively overlooked. Brakes have very little to do with accidents!

Smooth riding is a massive skill, shame that's not sold by Wiggle.

This, and effective braking technique. Even the basic kit of today is massively, massively, massively superior to the dreadful old Weinmanns and the like of yesteryear. There just isn't any comparison, and that's before you add steel rims to the mix.

Very much all of this.

And re the Exalith braking above. IMO, if you have your brakes set up correctly and the pads angled right, they provide the best caliper braking out there, especially in wet weather. Saying that, I've come off the back of Cols during a monsoon on Zipps and been able to brake fine too. It's just been a case of being prepared and reading the road. I have no need for disc brakes.

ai_1

thegreatdivide wrote:

Simon Masterson wrote:

Flasher wrote:

There's always much more to it than just having kit, I'm sure discs are great, however bad riding/road craft/technique is massively overlooked. Brakes have very little to do with accidents!

Smooth riding is a massive skill, shame that's not sold by Wiggle.

This, and effective braking technique. Even the basic kit of today is massively, massively, massively superior to the dreadful old Weinmanns and the like of yesteryear. There just isn't any comparison, and that's before you add steel rims to the mix.

Very much all of this.

And re the Exalith braking above. IMO, if you have your brakes set up correctly and the pads angled right, they provide the best caliper braking out there, especially in wet weather. Saying that, I've come off the back of Cols during a monsoon on Zipps and been able to brake fine too. It's just been a case of being prepared and reading the road. I have no need for disc brakes.

No-one has a need for disk brakes.
Many have a want for them and it's a more legitimate want than most if not all other kit "upgrades". Disk brakes can and will improve safety, especially for less experienced riders but not only for them.
Again and again people trot out the fact that they've gotten by without them or that technique is more important.
Neither of these changes the fact that disc brakes offer real advantages and even if you've gotten by without them doesn't mean more people won't get by even better with them. Braking performance should be limited only by tyre performance and rider skill. With calipers, it is very often limited by the cleanliness of the rim which can change at any time. With braking, predictability is as important as actual stopping ability. Rim brakes provide very poor predictability in my experience. The only significant advantage rim brakes may have is ease of maintenance. Sure disks may weigh a little more and have a minor aerodynamic penalty but it's so minor as to be pretty insignificant. Brake a moment later for a few corners and you'll more than make up the difference.

veronese68

Flasher wrote:

btiratsoo wrote:

Yes smooth riding helps. Better brakes help even more.

Help with what, when was the last time you had an accident because your bike didn't stop a metre sooner?

I ride a reasonable amount and I don't see massive pileups wherever I go, I'm guessing brakes are working ok.

I've had cars pull out on me and kids run into the road in front of me and had to do a full on emergency stop. Not once did I think I could have got away with lesser brakes. I'd much rather have really good brakes that I might not need than mediocre brakes that might not be enough one day.

ai_1

Veronese68 wrote:

Flasher wrote:

btiratsoo wrote:

Yes smooth riding helps. Better brakes help even more.

Help with what, when was the last time you had an accident because your bike didn't stop a metre sooner?

I ride a reasonable amount and I don't see massive pileups wherever I go, I'm guessing brakes are working ok.

What a load of tosh. I've had cars pull out on me and kids run into the road in front of me and had to do a full on emergency stop. Not once did I think I could have got away with lesser brakes. I'd much rather have really good brakes that I might not need than mediocre brakes that might not be enough one day.

Likewise, I've had 2 or 3 near misses where my brakes just barely got me stopped in time. One I remeber involved a car overtaking me and then pulling over to the kerb and braking hard, I was only just able to slow enough to avoid going into the back of the car. My technique was not the problem. Nor was tyre grip.....
You may not see massive pile-ups wherever you go and think that's a valid basis for guessing brakes are working okay. You are mistaken. That is not evidence. I don't see lots of things everywhere I go. There's plenty things I never see......doesn't mean they don't happen. :roll:

flasher

Veronese68 wrote:

What a load of tosh. I've had cars pull out on me and kids run into the road in front of me and had to do a full on emergency stop. Not once did I think I could have got away with lesser brakes. I'd much rather have really good brakes that I might not need than mediocre brakes that might not be enough one day.

Ai_1 wrote:

Likewise, I've had 2 or 3 near misses where my brakes just barely got me stopped in time. One I remeber involved a car overtaking me and then pulling over to the kerb and braking hard, I was only just able to slow enough to avoid going into the back of the car. My technique was not the problem. Nor was tyre grip.....
You may not see massive pile-ups wherever you go and think that's a valid basis for guessing brakes are working okay. You are mistaken. That is not evidence. I don't see lots of things everywhere I go. There's plenty things I never see......doesn't mean they don't happen. :roll:

So that's two of you that haven't actually had an accident.

cookeeemonster

To the OP. There are a million and one threads on rim vs disc brakes on the road forum, always descend into this sort of thing (pantomime).

My shimano hydraulic disc brakes are wonderful...just...fantastic. I ride in all weathers in london...they are a godsend. Not much more I can say.

Some people dont need or want them, but if you ride in the wet and/or in traffic then they'll make your life easier and more enjoyable, go for it!

veronese68

Flasher wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

What a load of tosh. I've had cars pull out on me and kids run into the road in front of me and had to do a full on emergency stop. Not once did I think I could have got away with lesser brakes. I'd much rather have really good brakes that I might not need than mediocre brakes that might not be enough one day.

Ai_1 wrote:

Likewise, I've had 2 or 3 near misses where my brakes just barely got me stopped in time. One I remeber involved a car overtaking me and then pulling over to the kerb and braking hard, I was only just able to slow enough to avoid going into the back of the car. My technique was not the problem. Nor was tyre grip.....
You may not see massive pile-ups wherever you go and think that's a valid basis for guessing brakes are working okay. You are mistaken. That is not evidence. I don't see lots of things everywhere I go. There's plenty things I never see......doesn't mean they don't happen. :roll:

So that's two of you that would like to do their best to avoid an accident.

FTFY :roll:

ai_1

Flasher wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

What a load of tosh. I've had cars pull out on me and kids run into the road in front of me and had to do a full on emergency stop. Not once did I think I could have got away with lesser brakes. I'd much rather have really good brakes that I might not need than mediocre brakes that might not be enough one day.

Ai_1 wrote:

Likewise, I've had 2 or 3 near misses where my brakes just barely got me stopped in time. One I remeber involved a car overtaking me and then pulling over to the kerb and braking hard, I was only just able to slow enough to avoid going into the back of the car. My technique was not the problem. Nor was tyre grip.....
You may not see massive pile-ups wherever you go and think that's a valid basis for guessing brakes are working okay. You are mistaken. That is not evidence. I don't see lots of things everywhere I go. There's plenty things I never see......doesn't mean they don't happen. :roll:

So that's two of you that haven't actually had an accident.

Pathetic. You deserve no further response.

flasher

Veronese68 wrote:

FTFY :roll:

Ai_1 wrote:

Pathetic. You deserve no further response.

Whatever, I'm not anti discs, use what you like, what I have a problem with is the naive idea that spending money on 'stuff' makes you a better safer cyclist, this obviously isn't the case.

Look at cars, better brakes hasn't made the road safer, it's made people faster because they can leave braking to the last possible moment.

mr_evil

Flasher wrote:

There's always much more to it than just having kit, I'm sure discs are great, however bad riding/road craft/technique is massively overlooked. Brakes have very little to do with accidents!

Smooth riding is a massive skill, shame that's not sold by Wiggle.

Using rim brakes in the rain, good "riding/road craft/technique" involves having to apply the brakes at regular intervals even when you don't want to slow down, just to scrape water off the rim so you have at least some braking power available when you really need it. Even then, stopping distance is still much further than for disc brakes.

ai_1

Flasher wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

FTFY :roll:

Ai_1 wrote:

Pathetic. You deserve no further response.

Whatever, I'm not anti discs, use what you like, what I have a problem with is the naive idea that spending money on 'stuff' makes you a better safer cyclist, this obviously isn't the case.

Look at cars, better brakes hasn't made the road safer, it's made people faster because they can leave braking to the last possible moment.

You may not be anti-disk brakes but you appear to be anti rational, constructive discussion.
Who are these people with the "naive idea that spending money on 'stuff' makes you a better safer cyclist"?
Also, I haven't got figures, nor do I know if they exist but I doubt very much that improved car brakes haven't improved road safety for motorists. Seatbelts, airbags, and other car safety improvements also give drivers an added sense of safety which may contribute to increased speeds and risk taking. Do you think all of these are therefore worthless?
The quality of some of the arguments on this forum is seriously poor. Again and again we have someone pretending A is false because B is sufficient when in fact A & B compliment each other and are not in competition.
On this thread we're told good brakes are unnecessary because you just need to have good braking technique (and you actually seem to be implying better brakes are more dangerous!). In other threads I've been told hi-viz clothing and reflectors are pointless because lights work better and wide range cassettes are pointless because novice riders should just get fitter. Idiotic arguments that can only have their roots in ignorance, prejudice, fear of change or trolling.

Make a rational argument if you have one. I'm perfectly willing to be convinced I'm missing something. But, you haven't made a case.

mr_evil

Ai_1 wrote:

...Also, I haven't got figures, nor do I know if they exist but I doubt very much that improved car brakes haven't improved road safety for motorists. Seatbelts, airbags, and other car safety improvements also give drivers an added sense of safety which may contribute to increased speeds and risk taking. Do you think all of these are therefore worthless?..

He does have a point here. I'm not going to spend too much time digging up statistics, but ABS has not improved safety. Many other safety improvements in cars have also had no effect, or much less effect than you would expect, usually explained by risk compensation.

It's quite likely that risk compensation affects cyclists too, but I'm aware of no studies that confirm this. Nonetheless I would much rather have good brakes so that I can be responsible for my own safety, rather than crashing due to inadequate equipment.

flasher

Ai_1 wrote:

You may not be anti-disk brakes but you appear to be anti rational, constructive discussion.
Who are these people with the "naive idea that spending money on 'stuff' makes you a better safer cyclist"?
Also, I haven't got figures, nor do I know if they exist but I doubt very much that improved car brakes haven't improved road safety for motorists. Seatbelts, airbags, and other car safety improvements also give drivers an added sense of safety which may contribute to increased speeds and risk taking. Do you think all of these are therefore worthless?
The quality of some of the arguments on this forum is seriously poor. Again and again we have someone pretending A is false because B is sufficient when in fact A & B compliment each other and are not in competition.
On this thread we're told good brakes are unnecessary because you just need to have good braking technique (and you actually seem to be implying better brakes are more dangerous!). In other threads I've been told hi-viz clothing and reflectors are pointless because lights work better and wide range cassettes are pointless because novice riders should just get fitter. Idiotic arguments that can only have their roots in ignorance, prejudice, fear of change or trolling.

Make a rational argument if you have one. I'm perfectly willing to be convinced I'm missing something. But, you haven't made a case.

I'm not trying to convince anything to anyone, it's a discussion and my point of view is that people are only too willing to spend money on stuff rather than look at their own technique as heaven forbid they may not be as good as they like to believe.

Maybe one day all road bikes will be fitted as standard with discs and Di2, I don't have a particular problem with that, but do you think that once we have all that Shimano/SRAM etc. will pack their bags and shut up shop, no they'll continue to come up with new 'stuff that's safer/faster/lighter/aero and we really wouldn't want to be left behind would we?

For me cycling is about simplicity, others see it differently, good for you

ugo.santalucia

Flasher wrote:

I'm not trying to convince anything to anyone, it's a discussion and my point of view is that people are only too willing to spend money on stuff rather than look at their own technique as heaven forbid they may not be as good as they like to believe.

Maybe one day all road bikes will be fitted as standard with discs and Di2, I don't have a particular problem with that, but do you think that once we have all that Shimano/SRAM etc. will pack their bags and shut up shop, no they'll continue to come up with new 'stuff that's safer/faster/lighter/aero and we really wouldn't want to be left behind would we?

For me cycling is about simplicity, others see it differently, good for you

I think you are right in principle.

DIsc brakes are pushed by the industry, clearly because there is no longer room for improvement in rim calipers. They have not gone better for at least a decade. Once you remove innovation and improvement, there is no reason for brands like Shimano to be on the market, as they cannot compete with Chinese copies that do the same job. Hence the push for systems which have a greater deal of technology and are leass easy to copy to the same level of quality, like hydraulic disc brakes. There is lots of room for improvement there... we are still at the beginning, we still use steel rotors!

Unlike other innovations, which seem to offer very little for your money (11 speed, electronics etc..) I think hydraulics and discs have the potential to bring something better... worth it? It's up to you to decide, but it is clear rim calipers will be wiped out within a decade, just like they did in MTB and like they are currently doing in CX

stueys

Well this has been one of the more impressive thread collapses... We've moved on from people arguing that smooth riding not decent brakes is all that's needed to a discussion on why better brakes on cars (metal objects that weigh over a tonne and travel at many metres a second...) are a bad thing :shock:

Not sure whether to laugh or cry....

Anyway, back on topic, I've got both dura calipers and hydro discs on two bikes.
1. Discs comprehensively outperform calipers in the wet, or marginal conditions (ie where rims may get dirty, etc). This is really beyond a debate
2. In the dry I'm not seeing more than a marginal difference, but I'm comparing top end callipers

If you're buying a new bike for all weather use, I'd genuinely question not going discs. The difference is significant. The debate on whether the difference is needed or not is done to personal choice. We've all ridden calipers in the wet for years, we've all had 'interesting' moments doing so. I've yet to have a single interesting moment on discs.

veronese68

In response to Flasher that wasn't the way it came across. I agree with some of what you say about progress just for the sake of it. However, given the unpredictability of our environment I would say having good brakes that work is a definite advantage. I ride my bike in all weathers, frequently with a lot of traffic around me. Given the choice between brakes that just work or brakes that work if it's dry or if they feel like it I know which I would prefer.
I've been riding for many years and no amount of road craft or skill can protect you from the really determined phucktard. I'll do what I can to improve the odds in my favour. As with a helmet debate I don't know disc brakes have saved me, but there have been a couple of occasions that I've come to a stop having avoided something and been very glad that I had discs.
But as I wrote on the first page, if you only ride in the dry you may not need them. Unfortunately I live in the UK and riding would be severely curtailed if I never rode in the wet.

ai_1

Flasher wrote:

....I'm not trying to convince anything to anyone, it's a discussion and my point of view is that people are only too willing to spend money on stuff rather than look at their own technique as heaven forbid they may not be as good as they like to believe.

Okay, well I agree there's a definite willingness to spend money on the latest. I'm not sure that's at the expense of technique though. If it were a choice between the two I'd agree with you but for plenty people it's not.

Flasher wrote:

...Maybe one day all road bikes will be fitted as standard with discs and Di2, I don't have a particular problem with that, but do you think that once we have all that Shimano/SRAM etc. will pack their bags and shut up shop, no they'll continue to come up with new 'stuff that's safer/faster/lighter/aero.....

No, of course I accept that innovation, or development at least, will continue.I see where you're coming from but I don't really think that's the point. Business will always look for solutions to sell. Some will address a real weakness or opportunity, others will add diversity without any major benefits and yet others will have no real value. I consider disk brakes for bicycles to be very firmly in the first category.
I bought a new bike this year, it's neither an aero frame nor Di2 equipped. I'd have liked an aero frame all else being equal but all else was not equal. Di2 is interesting and has some advantages but also some disadvantages and to be honest I subscribe somewhat to your idea that cycling should be simple. So I skipped that. I looked for a bike with disk brakes that fulfilled most of my other criteria but couldn't find one. Thankfully that looks like changing before I buy another bike in a few years. My point is, some people will buy whatever's marketed at them. Others will step back and consider which are the developments actually worth adopting and at what cost.

Flasher wrote:

...and we really wouldn't want to be left behind would we?...

I have no problem not owning the latest of everything.....
Again, I agree with you on this one in principle but I don't agree it applies in this case.
For me, at least, disk brakes are a solution to the poorest performing function of a bicycle and a very overdue development. I'm a mechanical engineer and an aerodynamicist by training. I like simple, elegant and effective solutions. Rim brakes, whether caliper, cantilever or V-brakes are very simple but they're not particularly elegant or effective. Disk brakes are a little more complex and not supremely elegant but they're a superior solution in my opinion. Tthat's why I think they have a place on bicycles, not because Shimano told me so....

ovi

just watched Namur elite mens cylocross on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYoMxANUoyI and most teams are using cantilevers with I think only Giant pushing disc brakes.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/uci-cyclo-cross-world-cup-namur-2014/elite-men/photos/330207
I wouldn't change for the sake of it but would consider disk on a new cyclocross bike and road bike I would stick to a caliper setup. There is a lot of braking force going through your spokes with a disk setup.

ugo.santalucia

ovi wrote:

There is a lot of braking force going through your spokes with a disk setup.

... yet in 5 years I've never broken any...

ovi

...then ride faster and harder.

kingstonian

ovi wrote:

just watched Namur elite mens cylocross on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYoMxANUoyI and most teams are using cantilevers with I think only Giant pushing disc brakes.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/uci-cyclo-cross-world-cup-namur-2014/elite-men/photos/330207
I wouldn't change for the sake of it but would consider disk on a new cyclocross bike and road bike I would stick to a caliper setup. There is a lot of braking force going through your spokes with a disk setup.

Isn't the braking force mainly in the hub?

ovi

Kingstonian wrote:

ovi wrote:

just watched Namur elite mens cylocross on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYoMxANUoyI and most teams are using cantilevers with I think only Giant pushing disc brakes.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/uci-cyclo-cross-world-cup-namur-2014/elite-men/photos/330207
I wouldn't change for the sake of it but would consider disk on a new cyclocross bike and road bike I would stick to a caliper setup. There is a lot of braking force going through your spokes with a disk setup.

Isn't the braking force mainly in the hub?

No its closer to the rim, the closer to the hub the more leverage the spokes and forks have to cope with.If you Google Buell front brake you will see that they only use one rotor which is attached to the rim and allows for thinner spokes which makes the wheel lighter where all other performance bikes use two rotors connected to the hub to get the same performance as the Buell setup.

this is me on a track day http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/43/506824.jpg and if you notice I'm only using two fingers for braking.

meanredspider

I've not read all the pages of this thread but I've ridden a disc-specific road bike for 4 years nearly (Volagi Liscio) in a massive range of conditions: pretty much anything and everything a Western European rider is likely to see.

Faced with the choice of bikes for doing Alpe D'HuZes (6x up Alpe D'Huez in a day) I could have chosen my lighter Scott Foil HMX or taken the heavier Volagi armed with disc brakes. There was never a moment of doubt in my mind that I'd take the Volagi for the advantage that the brakes offer.

There's a lot of crap and speculation about disc brakes from people without any extensive experience of using them on a road bike. Most people that try them properly don't go back.

meanredspider

ovi wrote:

No its closer to the rim, the closer to the hub the more leverage the spokes

The spokes don't cope with leverage - the are in tension - that's the key difference between front disc hubs and rim hubs - front disc hubs are laced like rear hubs to allow for that tension. The forces under braking are nothing compared to shock loads from bumps in the road.

ugo.santalucia

I've built over 200 disc wheels 28 and 32 spokes, 2 and 3 cross for 700c rim size and AFAIK nobody has broken a spoke yet. It is a non issue

flasher

meanredspider wrote:

Faced with the choice of bikes for doing Alpe D'HuZes (6x up Alpe D'Huez in a day) I could have chosen my lighter Scott Foil HMX or taken the heavier Volagi armed with disc brakes. There was never a moment of doubt in my mind that I'd take the Volagi for the advantage that the brakes offer.

There's a lot of crap and speculation about disc brakes from people without any extensive experience of using them on a road bike. Most people that try them properly don't go back.

So you have a lovely light race bike but chose to ride the heavier clunker ( ) that makes no sense to me, I've ridden a few Alp's including Alpe d'Huez and never felt that I needed better brakes.

Although I understand that some feel the need for 'better brakes' my brother is a great climber but a terrible descender, he has a fear of heights and can't ride along side the safety rail, generally he's slower going down than up as he's on the brakes permanently!

bobmcstuff

Flasher wrote:

Although I understand that some feel the need for 'better brakes' my brother is a great climber but a terrible descender, he has a fear of heights and can't ride along side the safety rail, generally he's slower going down than up as he's on the brakes permanently!

As I understand it from MRS's other posts about that event there's an awful lot of other people on the descent at the same time, so it doesn't matter how good a descender you are, there's load of other people potentially behaving erratically to account for.

Also I'd imagine fatigue on the later descents would have an influence.

meanredspider

Flasher wrote:

So you have a lovely light race bike but chose to ride the heavier clunker ( ) that makes no sense to me, I've ridden a few Alp's including Alpe d'Huez and never felt that I needed better brakes.

LOL at the "heavier clunker" comment!

Seriously, though, Alpe D'HuZes is an entirely different proposition from riding "a few Alp's [sic]". For starters there are around 5000 people on the hill at the same time. Mixed with that the road is open so cars, vans and lorries, escorted by motorbikes, are descending with the riders and are much slower through the hairpins. Mix in with it that most of the riders are Dutch and, by definition, generally not familiar with 12km 8-12% descents and brakes are suddenly a lot more important. Fortunately the rain that had been forecast the week before didn't materialise (I can't begin to imagine what the descents would have been like). There's also the mental angle - that's a long descent: all the time you're descending you're thinking "in a few minutes I'm turning straight around and riding back up this". The quicker you get down the less time you have to think about this, the more time you have to do the 6 climbs.

Faced with the same choice again (and I've said I'll do AD6 again this year though I'm not sure I'm going to be able to) I'd absolutely make the same decision. And it's ALL about the brakes. I adore descending (my riding buddies refer to me as "Bomber" for that very reason) - I love leaving my braking as late as possible and carving through the corners (I race cars too). Give me disc brakes every time.

thegreatdivide

Flasher wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

What a load of tosh. I've had cars pull out on me and kids run into the road in front of me and had to do a full on emergency stop. Not once did I think I could have got away with lesser brakes. I'd much rather have really good brakes that I might not need than mediocre brakes that might not be enough one day.

Ai_1 wrote:

Likewise, I've had 2 or 3 near misses where my brakes just barely got me stopped in time. One I remeber involved a car overtaking me and then pulling over to the kerb and braking hard, I was only just able to slow enough to avoid going into the back of the car. My technique was not the problem. Nor was tyre grip.....
You may not see massive pile-ups wherever you go and think that's a valid basis for guessing brakes are working okay. You are mistaken. That is not evidence. I don't see lots of things everywhere I go. There's plenty things I never see......doesn't mean they don't happen. :roll:

So that's two of you that haven't actually had an accident.

"I’ve been working for 18 years. In 1975, no-one died. In 1976, no-one died. In 1977, no-one died. In 1978, no-one died. In 1979, no-one died. In 1980, someone died. In 1981, no-one died. In 1982, there was the incident with the pigeon. In 1983, no-one died. In 1984, no-one died. In 1985, no-one died. In 1986...I mean I could go on."

sigorman85

I've just placed a order for the de rosa idol 2015 with 11speed ultegra