Commonwealth Games Road Race Spoiler Thread
Comments
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Pross wrote:Am I the only person who doesn't like Armistead? Really wish Pooley had won.
I didn't mind her until yesterday, but what she did was monumentally selfish, as well as being tactically dumb. You just don't chase down your team mate who has a probable winning margin, particularly as Pooley had busted a gut to give Armistead an armchair ride. As for the dumb bit, Armistead's attack could easily have brought some or all of the group up with her, and having expended so much energy to attack it's probable Armitstead would have been beaten, as well as ruining Pooley's chances.
Regardless of any pre race plan, the smart, unselfish rider adapts any plan to suit the race situation that develops. Unfortunately Armitstead would appear to be neither. The smart move to maximise chances of an England win would have been for Armitstead to sit back and only attack if anyone else did or if the group started to close on Pooley, and Armitstead would have most probably still got her win as she was way stronger than the others, thanks to Emma. Otherwise, if noone else attacked and Pooley maintained her lead, then Pooley wins.
Of course Armitstead was only concerned with winning herself, even if this meant risking the chances of an England win. After yesterday's race I'm with you Pross. And she was hardly overflowing with thanks to Emma post race either.No longer a Wiggo fan0 -
wiggofan wrote:Pross wrote:Am I the only person who doesn't like Armistead? Really wish Pooley had won.
I didn't mind her until yesterday, but what she did was monumentally selfish, as well as being tactically dumb. You just don't chase down your team mate who has a probable winning margin, particularly as Pooley had busted a gut to give Armistead an armchair ride. As for the dumb bit, Armistead's attack could easily have brought some or all of the group up with her, and having expended so much energy to attack it's probable Armitstead would have been beaten.
Regardless of any pre race plan, the smart, unselfish rider adapts any plan to suit the race situation that develops. Unfortunately Armitstead would appear to be neither. The smart move to maximise chances of an England win would have been for Armitstead to sit back and only attack if anyone else did or if the group started to close on Pooley, and Armitstead would have most probably still got her win as she was way stronger than the others, thanks to Emma. Otherwise, if noone else attacked and Pooley maintained her lead, then Pooley wins.
Of course Armitstead was only concerned with winning herself, even if this meant risking the chances of an England win. After yesterday's race I'm with you Pross. And she was hardly overflowing with thanks to Emma post race either.
Emma Pooley went on record as saying she was working for Armitstead, and that had been the plan for the entire team. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/commonweal ... s/28628858
Given Emma was retiring, what motive would she have to not tell the truth? I think she's a terrific rider, and I have a lot of respect for her speaking her mind, why would she change now?
Oh, and the fact that Armitstead made the move they planned, it worked perfectly, and she won. Far from the "selfish and dumb" portrayal you're making.
They're both tremendous racers. I know a lot of people wanted there to be a fairytale sendoff for Emma Pooley, but it wasn't to be.0 -
Just fyi, that soundbite was taken shortly after the line while she was half in tears. Regardless, Lizzie's tactics were not on. The race situation did not dictate that. If she had any respect for Pooley she would have let her take the gold.Contador is the Greatest0
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frenchfighter wrote:Just fyi, that soundbite was taken shortly after the line while she was half in tears. Regardless, Lizzie's tactics were not on. The race situation did not dictate that. If she had any respect for Pooley she would have let her take the gold.
Emma Pooley's Twitter account doesn't support your position.
PooleyEmma: What a wonderful last race! V proud to have been part of a great @weRengland team &help @L_ArmiTstead to victory @Glasgow2014 Not sure (1/2)
If she wasn't happy about it, she didn't need to say anything. This was hours after the race.
Also, and this is a genuine question, how would a competitive athlete feel about having a medal "gifted" to them?0 -
She is too nice a lady to talk bad about anyone else. It's not a matter of gifting - it is ab out not chasing your own teammate down. You would only have to counter when they are caught.Contador is the Greatest0
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mikenetic wrote:Emma Pooley went on record as saying she was working for Armitstead, and that had been the plan for the entire team. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/commonweal ... s/28628858
Given Emma was retiring, what motive would she have to not tell the truth? I think she's a terrific rider, and I have a lot of respect for her speaking her mind, why would she change now?
Oh, and the fact that Armitstead made the move they planned, it worked perfectly, and she won. Far from the "selfish and dumb" portrayal you're making.
They're both tremendous racers. I know a lot of people wanted there to be a fairytale sendoff for Emma Pooley, but it wasn't to be.
You've either failed to understand or failed to properly read my previous post, particularly the second paragraph. The article you link says the pre race plan was for Pooley to launch "a concerted solo effort in an attempt to break up the leading pack and prevent a bunch sprint, enabling Armitstead to seize the initiative". However, Emma's attack didn't break up the pack. It was much more successful than that - the pack didn't break up at all because noone could go with her! It was at this point that the pre race plan should have been modified along the lines I described (second paragraph again) to reflect the race situation that now presented itself. However, whether due to selfishness, tactical shortcomings, or both, Armitstead still attacked, when the smart call would have been to do as I said above (yep, you've guessed it, that second para again).
As for what Pooley has gone on the record as saying, I wouldn't have expected her to say anything else. As Frenchfighter says, she's too much of a class act to say anything critical of her team mates.No longer a Wiggo fan0 -
It's all very well to suggest that Armistead made a tactically incorrect call to chase Pooley but the only real measure of how dumb a tactic might be is the outcome - in this case a 1-2 for England. Her selfishness is not really for us to call is it - this was not a trade team where favours can be returned in the next race. We might think it would be nice for Emma to have won but if you're Lizzie and it's been agreed that the team will race for you (and that opportunity isnt coming again for another 4 years) and you've gauged your effort on that basis it's a bit much to expect her not to give it a go - had someone gone with her then it would have been reasonable at that point to ease off.0
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wiggofan, any chance you can explain why your hypothetical race outcome was more certain to happen than any of the other potential outcomes? Like Pooley running out of legs (since she still had half a lap to go, including the steepest hill), or getting a puncture, or crashing, or someone else attacking, or Armitstead losing in the sprint? You're just guessing with the benefit of hindsight like all the rest of us. All this armchair-DS'ing is a bit stupid and seems to be mostly motivated by a dislike of Armitstead. Let the result speak for itself.
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Paulie W wrote:It's all very well to suggest that Armistead made a tactically incorrect call to chase Pooley but the only real measure of how dumb a tactic might be is the outcome - in this case a 1-2 for England.
Woolly headed nonsense. If I said to you I would like you to throw a dice (die if you prefer) and get one six, and I give you the choice of throwing the dice once or twice, you'd be pretty stupid not to take the option of throwing the dice twice. If you take the one dice option and get a six, that doesn't mean you made the best call. You just got lucky.No longer a Wiggo fan0 -
Everyone who watches women's racing knew that Lizzie would beat those against her 9/10 times in any scenario.Contador is the Greatest0
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mikenetic wrote:Also, and this is a genuine question, how would a competitive athlete feel about having a medal "gifted" to them?
A teammate not chasing you when you make a solo break isn't being gifted the win. It is earned by going on the attack and rival teams failing to catch you.
Armistead comes across as very aloof, she didn't really want to get involved in the fun and games the others were having on the podium at the Nationals and whilst all the other riders (including Pooley, King and Trott) were happily chatting with the public afterwards Lizzie went straight off to get changed and didn't acknowledge anyone. I also heard people say she left her medal behind but don't know if there's any truth in that.0 -
wiggofan wrote:Paulie W wrote:It's all very well to suggest that Armistead made a tactically incorrect call to chase Pooley but the only real measure of how dumb a tactic might be is the outcome - in this case a 1-2 for England.
Woolly headed nonsense. If I said to you I would like you to throw a dice (die if you prefer) and get one six, and I give you the choice of throwing the dice once or twice, you'd be pretty stupid not to take the option of throwing the dice twice. If you take the one dice option and get a six, that doesn't mean you made the best call. You just got lucky.
But that is a meaningless analogy as there is no consequence to me choosing one or two throws - in the race there were consequences to the decision to chase or not and the only meaningful evidence of these consequences in this instance is the outcome not your speculation on that outcome.0 -
Was driving during the last lap but listened in on 5Live and both Rowsell and Pendleton called what happened before it did - that Pooley would be the false attack, there would be a bit of energy wasted by the contenders to try and bring her back then Armitstead would make her own unmarked attack thereafter. Neither seemed outraged or surprised by the outcome. I didn't see it as I said (was en route to Glasgow for the afternoon) but I will take their judgement ahead of some of those put forward here! All this talk of selfishness - if the Team England plan was to ride for Armitstead, surely Pooley riding off into the sunset ignoring the prearranged tactic (according to Rowsell) would be equally so?0
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adr82 wrote:wiggofan, any chance you can explain why your hypothetical race outcome was more certain to happen than any of the other potential outcomes? Like Pooley running out of legs (since she still had half a lap to go, including the steepest hill), or getting a puncture, or crashing, or someone else attacking, or Armitstead losing in the sprint? You're just guessing with the benefit of hindsight like all the rest of us. All this armchair-DS'ing is a bit stupid and seems to be mostly motivated by a dislike of Armitstead. Let the result speak for itself.
Spot on. We have no Idea what the race plan was, only the team knows that. It would seem, though, It worked perfectly.
All the indicators after the race and since would suggest they were all working for Armistead, more her course than Pooley's.
If the doubters had not stated even before the discussion that they did not like Armistead, and stated as fact that "Oh Emma would say that". You have no idea what she would say in any situation unless you have spent quality time with her.
England got a great one two with two class athletes, but it seems its never enough for some, there is always a whinge.0 -
Many gifted athletes are not particularly nice people. Others are just uncomfortable with playing the usual media games or don't come across well when they do. Not sure what relevance this has to the race except proving that most of the discussion of the result is more down to this public perception of Armitstead than anything else.Pross wrote:Armistead comes across as very aloof, she didn't really want to get involved in the fun and games the others were having on the podium at the Nationals and whilst all the other riders (including Pooley, King and Trott) were happily chatting with the public afterwards Lizzie went straight off to get changed and didn't acknowledge anyone. I also heard people say she left her medal behind but don't know if there's any truth in that.0 -
Pross wrote:Armistead comes across as very aloof, she didn't really want to get involved in the fun and games the others were having on the podium at the Nationals and whilst all the other riders (including Pooley, King and Trott) were happily chatting with the public afterwards Lizzie went straight off to get changed and didn't acknowledge anyone. I also heard people say she left her medal behind but don't know if there's any truth in that.
Athlete who wanted to win and didn't in being a bit grumpy shocker.
An open question to all the people who think that Pooley should have been "allowed" to go for Gold. At the point Armitstead attacked did any of you genuinely think that Pooley's attack was a race winning one?0 -
Lot of arguing going on in the Clinic about Lemond doing something similar at the Worlds in 1982
Proves he's soft on doping or something.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
adr82 wrote:Pross wrote:Armistead comes across as very aloof, she didn't really want to get involved in the fun and games the others were having on the podium at the Nationals and whilst all the other riders (including Pooley, King and Trott) were happily chatting with the public afterwards Lizzie went straight off to get changed and didn't acknowledge anyone. I also heard people say she left her medal behind but don't know if there's any truth in that.[/quote]
Many gifted athletes are not particularly nice people. Others are just uncomfortable with playing the usual media games or don't come across well when they do. Not sure what relevance this has to the race except proving that most of the discussion of the result is more down to this public perception of Armitstead than anything else.
Armistead has always come over, to me anyway, as a perfectly reasonable and sensible young lady, I would be surprised if these tales are true. Anyway, are you suggesting she made a huge effort to chase Pooley down, never an easy feat at the best of times, for a medal she was not interested in, and deliberately left it behind? :shock:0 -
I think Pross was talking about the Nationals in Glasgow last year, not this race. Seems to me that if you don't have any evidence for something there's no point in saying it though.mike6 wrote:adr82 wrote:Pross wrote:Armistead comes across as very aloof, she didn't really want to get involved in the fun and games the others were having on the podium at the Nationals and whilst all the other riders (including Pooley, King and Trott) were happily chatting with the public afterwards Lizzie went straight off to get changed and didn't acknowledge anyone. I also heard people say she left her medal behind but don't know if there's any truth in that.[/quote]
Many gifted athletes are not particularly nice people. Others are just uncomfortable with playing the usual media games or don't come across well when they do. Not sure what relevance this has to the race except proving that most of the discussion of the result is more down to this public perception of Armitstead than anything else.
Armistead has always come over, to me anyway, as a perfectly reasonable and sensible young lady, I would be surprised if these tales are true. Anyway, are you suggesting she made a huge effort to chase Pooley down, never an easy feat at the best of times, for a medal she was not interested in, and deliberately left it behind? :shock:0 -
I haven't commented on the tactics yesterday (other than to say that had Armistead elected to not chase Pooley then it wouldn't have been classed as 'gifting' the race). Ultimately it was a team event and they got first and second which has to be a success.
The incidents I mentioned above were purely a comment on why I find it hard to like Lizzie (there's been plenty of others reported but the above were what I witnessed myself other than the medal possibly being left behind). She seems to lack a bit of grace, not only in defeat but also in victory. I understand that a lot of successful sports people are like that but I would say it contrasts heavily with Pooley in particular and that is probably why people wanted Pooley to win.0 -
argyllflyer wrote:Was driving during the last lap but listened in on 5Live and both Rowsell and Pendleton called what happened before it did - that Pooley would be the false attack, there would be a bit of energy wasted by the contenders to try and bring her back then Armitstead would make her own unmarked attack thereafter. Neither seemed outraged or surprised by the outcome. I didn't see it as I said (was en route to Glasgow for the afternoon) but I will take their judgement ahead of some of those put forward here! All this talk of selfishness - if the Team England plan was to ride for Armitstead, surely Pooley riding off into the sunset ignoring the prearranged tactic (according to Rowsell) would be equally so?
yeah I dont really understand the confusion, Lizzie was always plan A for the gold medal in my mind, blimey half the rest team have been saying as much in the media for the past week even if you havent followed womens racing over the years, and certainly the other teams had Lizzie marked. But Lizzie & Emma have worked together like that so many times in road teams, Worlds, Olympics etc, I just dont think youd do that for so long if you didnt get on with the other person taking the glory, and they werent appreciative of your help and efforts back with you. that Lizzie doesnt feel the need to emote more directly via the medium of twitter, who knows maybe she does that old fashioned thing of actually saying the things she needs to directly to those people close around her
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The thing about championships like the Olympics and Commonwealths is that more reward is given for 2nd and 3rd than other races. Therefore it's more important for a nation to take 1st and 2nd (or 3rd) than a team to take the 1-2 in pretty much any other race. The tactics are therefore different to any other race.
The way I read the race, had Armistead not attacked, the bunch looked like it could catch Pooley as she was starting to look laboured (evidenced by Armistead catching her quickly and riding straight past her). Armistead attacking made the others have to chase her hard up the climb. This effort blew them to bits and gave Pooley the chance to stay out. Had the effort been more steady for the bunch up the climb they could have worked to catch Pooley. I think Armistead read the race very well.0 -
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I've only "met" Lizzie once. I was marshalling at the Olympics TT and she turned up on the home straight, was really lovely, posed for photos and chatted for ages with various people including a fellow marshall from Otley. I have no idea what she is "really" like - but I'm a fan... Especially bearing in mind she is 25 years old - I think people expect too much from some of our young sportsmen/women...http://www.georgesfoundation.org
http://100hillsforgeorge.blogspot.com/
http://www.12on12in12.blogspot.co.uk/0 -
r0bh wrote:An open question to all the people who think that Pooley should have been "allowed" to go for Gold. At the point Armitstead attacked did any of you genuinely think that Pooley's attack was a race winning one?
Honest answer is I thought it was possible she would hold on but not certain. With Armitstead sitting on the others I was starting to believe Pooley "could" win it. Yes clearly the tactic was for Pooley to draw the sting out of the opposition but normally a rider in that position would also have the chance to win the race if they could hold on.
I don't think the tactic whereby Armitstead attacked was quite cricket. Yes you have a plan A and yes having Pooley work for Armitsead made sense but what you are aiming for is an England win not necessarily an Armitstead win. I'm not going to say Armitstead was out of order - if that plan was prearranged then fair enough - if Pooley was happy to go with that who am I to say she shouldn't have been - all I can say is if I was a world class rider like Pooley I wouldn't have agreed to that in advance.
I do like Armitstead - I like her independence and the fact she is what Brian Cookson would describe as "difficult" and maybe that single minded will to win for herself comes as part of that but yeah I would have preferred her not to attack Pooley like that - it would have been more admirable than the win.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
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wiggofan wrote:Pross wrote:Am I the only person who doesn't like Armistead? Really wish Pooley had won.
I didn't mind her until yesterday, but what she did was monumentally selfish, as well as being tactically dumb. You just don't chase down your team mate who has a probable winning margin, particularly as Pooley had busted a gut to give Armistead an armchair ride. As for the dumb bit, Armistead's attack could easily have brought some or all of the group up with her, and having expended so much energy to attack it's probable Armitstead would have been beaten, as well as ruining Pooley's chances.
Regardless of any pre race plan, the smart, unselfish rider adapts any plan to suit the race situation that develops. Unfortunately Armitstead would appear to be neither. The smart move to maximise chances of an England win would have been for Armitstead to sit back and only attack if anyone else did or if the group started to close on Pooley, and Armitstead would have most probably still got her win as she was way stronger than the others, thanks to Emma. Otherwise, if noone else attacked and Pooley maintained her lead, then Pooley wins.
Of course Armitstead was only concerned with winning herself, even if this meant risking the chances of an England win. After yesterday's race I'm with you Pross. And she was hardly overflowing with thanks to Emma post race either.
Are you rayjay?0 -
