Wiggo broken hearted???
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axlightness wrote:Wiggins is a 2nd rate climber. Unless all the main contenders go down with a case of death he would not make the top 10000000000000000 infinity. Go back to the track or find some climbing drugs.
So who murdered him, on the mountain finishes, when this 2nd rate climber won the TDF in 2012?
He is not a specialist climber, we all know that, but he was at or near the front on all the mountain finishes or he would not have won. Hardly a 2nd rate climber.0 -
Oh please, he got about 50m up the road and then sat up immediately once Wiggins started crying to Yates over the radio! If Froome got attacked by a teammate I'm fairly sure he wouldn't instantly fall to bits like Wiggins seems to have done, he'd be more likely try to go chasing after them himself. At the very least I think he'd keep a more level head about it.sjmclean wrote:adr82 wrote:
Is saying you want to go home in the middle of winning said TdF because a teammate did something a little silly that mildly inconvenienced you for a few seconds a sign of mental strength? He's obviously got issues.Top_Bhoy wrote:Is winning the TdF, several stage races and multiple Olympic medals really a sign of mental weakness?
<In best John McEnroe voice> You cannot be serious!!
A little bit silly? It was a pre planned attack not just in the race but also of his leadership of his team. Imagine Porte did it to Froome.
I don't see how you can call Wiggins mentally strong when a relatively small amount of tension inside the team provoked a response like it did. Can you imagine him trying to cope in the position Contador was in with Armstrong in 2009? Or even Lemond with Hinault in 1986? He'd have packed it in after a couple of stages instead of going on to win!0 -
mike6 wrote:axlightness wrote:Wiggins is a 2nd rate climber. Unless all the main contenders go down with a case of death he would not make the top 10000000000000000 infinity. Go back to the track or find some climbing drugs.
So who murdered him, on the mountain finishes, when this 2nd rate climber won the TDF in 2012?
He is not a specialist climber, we all know that, but he was at or near the front on all the mountain finishes or he would not have won. Hardly a 2nd rate climber.
I have no idea who murdered him. I thought he was still alive. If you have any information about a murder you should contact the police.0 -
adr82 wrote:
Oh please, he got about 50m up the road and then sat up immediately once Wiggins started crying to Yates over the radio! If Froome got attacked by a teammate I'm fairly sure he wouldn't instantly fall to bits like Wiggins seems to have done, he'd be more likely try to go chasing after them himself. At the very least I think he'd keep a more level head about it.sjmclean wrote:adr82 wrote:
Is saying you want to go home in the middle of winning said TdF because a teammate did something a little silly that mildly inconvenienced you for a few seconds a sign of mental strength? He's obviously got issues.Top_Bhoy wrote:Is winning the TdF, several stage races and multiple Olympic medals really a sign of mental weakness?
<In best John McEnroe voice> You cannot be serious!!
A little bit silly? It was a pre planned attack not just in the race but also of his leadership of his team. Imagine Porte did it to Froome.
I don't see how you can call Wiggins mentally strong when a relatively small amount of tension inside the team provoked a response like it did. Can you imagine him trying to cope in the position Contador was in with Armstrong in 2009? Or even Lemond with Hinault in 1986? He'd have packed it in after a couple of stages instead of going on to win!
Contador and Lemond were both the stronger riders. Armstrong and Hinault were not perfect in their defeat but they were both man enough to accept that they were not as good as their team mates. Wiggins knew we could all see that Froome was the better rider. I could see why he would want to quit, it must have felt a bit hollow. It was a weak tour.0 -
Yes, they were the stronger riders in the end, but if either one had been less strong mentally then they could very very easily have lost out to their elder teammates before they got anywhere near Paris! Physical strength only gets you so far. Nobody denies Wiggins is a superb athlete when he puts the effort into his training, but he's not someone you can rely on when the going gets tough.axlightness wrote:Contador and Lemond were both the stronger riders. Armstrong and Hinault were not perfect in their defeat but they were both man enough to accept that they were not as good as their team mates. Wiggins knew we could all see that Froome was the better rider. I could see why he would want to quit, it must have felt a bit hollow. It was a weak tour.
As for it being a "weak Tour", you can only beat what's put in front of you. Do you think most of the people who know Wiggins mainly through his Tour and Olympic wins know or care that Contador and Schleck weren't there or that Evans wasn't in his 2011 form? Of course they don't. They care that he was the first British winner of the Tour, and that is what most people are going to remember him for in years to come. I do think Sky could have handled the Froome situation better in 2012, but Wiggins didn't cope with it as well as you'd expect someone in his position to do, and his behaviour since that Tour hasn't really made me a fan of his.0 -
I agree with everything you just posted adr82. Good post.0
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I watched the infamous Froome attack stage from 2012 on Eurosport the other day. Froome actually comes off the front about 8km from the finish and leaves Wiggins to chase a group of 4 including Nibali. Froome hangs on the back and then later in the stage is back on the front and actually launches an attack.
In those circumstances you can hardly blame Wiggins for being angry. Left on the front to chase his main rival who is up the road with other riders sharing the work with him while Froome is apparently saving a bit of energy for his own shot at a stage win.
Again though to say Froome was the stronger rider in that tour is rewriting history. The way Froome rides is to attack hard and get a gap, the way Wiggins rides is to avoid going into the red and gradually reel riders in. I don't doubt Froome was a bit stronger on that stage but it's highly unlikely he'd have been able to sustain that attack and put significant time into Wiggins. If someone wants to consider it a hollow victory they want to have a look at the gap Wiggins had over Froome and tell us where Froome was going to make that up when Wiggins had a str'ong team behind him which he has earned the right to lead with some fantastic results earlier in the year. Froome might have got a little closer in the final GC but a neutral would say it's unlikely he'd have taken the win.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
I agree, but this just adds more weight to the view that Wiggins totally overreacted. He should have known Froome wasn't somehow going to swan off up the mountain and put 10 minutes into him. Instead he panicked.DeVlaeminck wrote:Again though to say Froome was the stronger rider in that tour is rewriting history. The way Froome rides is to attack hard and get a gap, the way Wiggins rides is to avoid going into the red and gradually reel riders in. I don't doubt Froome was a bit stronger on that stage but it's highly unlikely he'd have been able to sustain that attack and put significant time into Wiggins. If someone wants to consider it a hollow victory they want to have a look at the gap Wiggins had over Froome and tell us where Froome was going to make that up when Wiggins had a str'ong team behind him which he has earned the right to lead with some fantastic results earlier in the year. Froome might have got a little closer in the final GC but a neutral would say it's unlikely he'd have taken the win.0 -
DeVlaeminck wrote:I watched the infamous Froome attack stage from 2012 on Eurosport the other day. Froome actually comes off the front about 8km from the finish and leaves Wiggins to chase a group of 4 including Nibali. Froome hangs on the back and then later in the stage is back on the front and actually launches an attack.
In those circumstances you can hardly blame Wiggins for being angry. Left on the front to chase his main rival who is up the road with other riders sharing the work with him while Froome is apparently saving a bit of energy for his own shot at a stage win.
Again though to say Froome was the stronger rider in that tour is rewriting history. The way Froome rides is to attack hard and get a gap, the way Wiggins rides is to avoid going into the red and gradually reel riders in. I don't doubt Froome was a bit stronger on that stage but it's highly unlikely he'd have been able to sustain that attack and put significant time into Wiggins. If someone wants to consider it a hollow victory they want to have a look at the gap Wiggins had over Froome and tell us where Froome was going to make that up when Wiggins had a str'ong team behind him which he has earned the right to lead with some fantastic results earlier in the year. Froome might have got a little closer in the final GC but a neutral would say it's unlikely he'd have taken the win.
Wholeheartedly agree with this...! There's a lot of re-writing history on here... even Vuelta 11, Froome beating BW in the time trial, suggests on it's own that he lost form there after crashing out of the TdF.
Froome is clearly the main GC contender at Sky now, and I think BW accepts this. I just think this whole episode is a shame because he's shown on 'performance' that he's good enough to ride the tour... What their personal relationship is like (ie. does Froome trust him etc) no one can really know on here...0 -
putneypeddler wrote:Froome is clearly the main GC contender at Sky now, and I think BW accepts this. I just think this whole episode is a shame because he's shown on 'performance' that he's good enough to ride the tour... What their personal relationship is like (ie. does Froome trust him etc) no one can really know on here...
If you watch the Brailsford video, he does say it's not only about Froome.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
True,
guess it's the same thing really - impossible to tell from here if there's disharmony, and/or if the team is split between 2 camps0 -
DeVlaeminck wrote:I watched the infamous Froome attack stage from 2012 on Eurosport the other day. Froome actually comes off the front about 8km from the finish and leaves Wiggins to chase a group of 4 including Nibali. Froome hangs on the back and then later in the stage is back on the front and actually launches an attack.
In those circumstances you can hardly blame Wiggins for being angry. Left on the front to chase his main rival who is up the road with other riders sharing the work with him while Froome is apparently saving a bit of energy for his own shot at a stage win.
Again though to say Froome was the stronger rider in that tour is rewriting history. The way Froome rides is to attack hard and get a gap, the way Wiggins rides is to avoid going into the red and gradually reel riders in. I don't doubt Froome was a bit stronger on that stage but it's highly unlikely he'd have been able to sustain that attack and put significant time into Wiggins. If someone wants to consider it a hollow victory they want to have a look at the gap Wiggins had over Froome and tell us where Froome was going to make that up when Wiggins had a str'ong team behind him which he has earned the right to lead with some fantastic results earlier in the year. Froome might have got a little closer in the final GC but a neutral would say it's unlikely he'd have taken the win.[/quote
Will we never know if Froome would have won. But unleashed early It is quite possible he could have put some serious time into Wiggins IMO.0 -
axlightness wrote:Will we never know if Froome would have won. But unleashed early It is quite possible he could have put some serious time into Wiggins IMO.
No-one else was able to ride off and put serious time into Wiggins and his team and in most cases were fighting to hang on to the pace being set by Wiggins' real work horses in that race (EBH on the lower slopes and Rogers / Porte at the business end) so why does anyone think Froome would have achieved it? I think people are confusing a constant, high pace that was being set with a 'steady' tempo. Some of the best climbers around tried to attack early on and made a short gain before getting pulled back so the best I think Froome would have achieved was much the same as Nibali did i.e. a few seconds over the last couple of kilometres.0 -
IMO
2012 Wiggo vs 2012 Froome would be a good race.
2012 Wiggo vs 2013 Froome would be a landslide on either route.
2012 Wiggo + 2012 Froome vs 2013 Froome would be awesome on either route.0 -
Pross wrote:axlightness wrote:Will we never know if Froome would have won. But unleashed early It is quite possible he could have put some serious time into Wiggins IMO.
No-one else was able to ride off and put serious time into Wiggins and his team and in most cases were fighting to hang on to the pace being set by Wiggins' real work horses in that race (EBH on the lower slopes and Rogers / Porte at the business end) so why does anyone think Froome would have achieved it? I think people are confusing a constant, high pace that was being set with a 'steady' tempo. Some of the best climbers around tried to attack early on and made a short gain before getting pulled back so the best I think Froome would have achieved was much the same as Nibali did i.e. a few seconds over the last couple of kilometres.
Exactly this. Especially when you consider Froome was placed behind Wiggo at the foot of most climbs to conserve his energy as much as possible until it was his JOB! to drop Wiggo off at the finish line. On balance during 2011 and 2012 there wasnt actually that much between them. Froome made the significant leapfrog during the autumn/winter of 2012 imo with the main goal of taking leadership from Wiggo and present stronger numbers to Sur Dave (and fair play to him). Ironically he was only battling against himself as Wiggo was so bad in 2013. Either way 2013 Froome was untouchable. My only concern is that he may have burnt himself out. You only have to look at Cadel Evans, Wiggo and Nibali's performance a year after winning a grand tour clean. It is just too much physically and the body needs to recover.0 -
I think that what is needed to resolve the 'conflict' between Wiggins and Froome is a really good manager. Obviously Brailsford, despite his 'management guru' image, is not up to the job."an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.0
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Well it depends what you think his job is. If it's just for Sky to win the Tour then he's doing pretty well. If it's to get the best out of Wiggins and Froome then he's only doing half a job. I think the truth is if you look at anyone you can find failures - and for Brailsford the way Wiggins' career has gone since the 2012 Tour could be classed as a management failure - but that hardly means he is not up to the job.
Judging them on their failures is an odd way to judge someone - surely you look at the sum of their successes ? It would be possible to look at Sir Alex Ferguson and say he made a bad buy in Veron and failed to win the title in 2012 and whenever else therefore - it wouldn't really sum up his career though would it ?[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
BenderRodriguez wrote:I think that what is needed to resolve the 'conflict' between Wiggins and Froome is a really good
Fixed
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Pross wrote:BenderRodriguez wrote:I think that what is needed to resolve the 'conflict' between Wiggins and Froome is a really good
Good idea! Just as long the fight is filmed for distribution on YouTube, it takes place on a tiled floor and both Froome and Wiggins are required to wear cycling shoes with any 'anti-slip' fittings on the cleats removed.
"an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.0 -
If Wiggins had indicated his enthusiasm to support Froome in the TdF and then reneged during the race, that would surely spell the end of his career and the opportunity to do the 2016 Olympics as his swan song? Brailsford I suspect will still hold considerable influence in the corridors of power of GB cycling. Would Wiggins want to put his career on the line prematurely and risk tarnishing his legacy?
Despite everything, I suspect the loathing each guy has for the other and the cliques within the team, is just too far for management to bridge (or risk).0 -
axlightness wrote:mike6 wrote:axlightness wrote:Wiggins is a 2nd rate climber. Unless all the main contenders go down with a case of death he would not make the top 10000000000000000 infinity. Go back to the track or find some climbing drugs.
So who murdered him, on the mountain finishes, when this 2nd rate climber won the TDF in 2012?
He is not a specialist climber, we all know that, but he was at or near the front on all the mountain finishes or he would not have won. Hardly a 2nd rate climber.
I have no idea who murdered him. I thought he was still alive. If you have any information about a murder you should contact the police.
Ha ha, i'm laughing so much I can hardly type this, you should do stand up. :roll:0 -
Top_Bhoy wrote:If Wiggins had indicated his enthusiasm to support Froome in the TdF and then reneged during the race, that would surely spell the end of his career and the opportunity to do the 2016 Olympics as his swan song? Brailsford I suspect will still hold considerable influence in the corridors of power of GB cycling. Would Wiggins want to put his career on the line prematurely and risk tarnishing his legacy?
Could climb off 'injured'.0 -
It makes me laugh when people say Wiggins can't climb. We all remember 2012 and Froome's interesting take on the mountains and more recently, don't get me wrong, Cali was hardly full of top notch riders but don't disrespect some of the climbers in that field, Wiggins bossed them this year and is apparently passed it too.0
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There must be examples of better climbers supporting their overall team leaders in the Tour...
Heras > Armstrong
Rondon > Indurain
Anyone > Ulrich
It's about all terrains though.
Froome didn't play the game (IMO) and now Wiggins and he wouldn't touch each other with a barge pole.
From the post above I would want to see a flatter Tour in 2014 with the two of them squaring up on rival teams.0 -
jimmythecuckoo wrote:
Froome didn't play the game (IMO) and now Wiggins and he wouldn't touch each other with a barge pole.
From the post above I would want to see a flatter Tour in 2014 with the two of them squaring up on rival teams.
Bumwash. They didn't get on before Froome did anything to upset Wiggins.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
They didn't get on before...Based on what exactly?
And when people talk about cliques who are they on about, who is on who's side???
It's professional sport, it's a team game, u don't have to get on to do well...
All those who think wiggins is frail need to go and look at his palmares especially 2012 and stop being pig headed, you don't win what he has in cycling being weak.
Froome has also shown he is not infallible of late but it doesn't mean he is weak.
Personally think it's a travesty wiggins won't be riding the tour, as well as many other rider such as Quintana, barguil etc. it was bad enough he didn't get an opportunity to ride as defending champion...he should be given an opportunity to ride in front of home fans, he has at the very least earned the right to that IMO.0 -
bigcgilmour wrote:They didn't get on before...Based on what exactly?
Take or leave the source, but in his book Froome describes rooming with Wiggo at the 2011 Vuelta and their relationship was non-existent to such an extent that the arrangement was cut short and a swap was made. Wiggo, Froome says, ignored him every time he spoke.0 -
If dave is quick, he can name the full sky team tonight, minus wiggins.
The news will be Thursdays chip paper, given that England and rat boy Suarez will hog the back pages tomorrow.0 -
jimmythecuckoo wrote:There must be examples of better climbers supporting their overall team leaders in the Tour...
Heras > Armstrong
Rondon > Indurain
Anyone > Ulrich
It's about all terrains though.
Froome didn't play the game (IMO) and now Wiggins and he wouldn't touch each other with a barge pole.
From the post above I would want to see a flatter Tour in 2014 with the two of them squaring up on rival teams.
Ouch Jimmy that's a bit harsh on Ulrich. He wasn't a shabby climber, there's plenty of footage of Der Kaiser fully juiced and in the big ring monstering up climbs.0 -
iainf72 wrote:jimmythecuckoo wrote:
Froome didn't play the game (IMO) and now Wiggins and he wouldn't touch each other with a barge pole.
From the post above I would want to see a flatter Tour in 2014 with the two of them squaring up on rival teams.
Bumwash. They didn't get on before Froome did anything to upset Wiggins.
Surely Froome shouldn't have been at the 2012 Tour then?0
