J T-L

Gazzaputt

Binge drinker and doper on £22k per year? Spreading himself very thin then.

Art Vandelay

Gazzaputt wrote:

Binge drinker and doper on £22k per year? Spreading himself very thin then.

Just in case anyone thinks the case rests upon whether it's realistic or not that JTL imbibed 33 units of alcohol 3 days before the Worlds and his first blood passport sample - it doesn't. Read the UKAD findings and the case for the defense is soundly taken apart.

eh

I'm not blaming them as such just surprised how naive they were with a rider going from pretty much no-where to winning major races. As others have alluded even some in Sky thought it was dodgy.

His early results don't suggest anything major talent wise, just fairly decent UK pro-am level and then suddenly in 2011 and then more so in 2012 he is suddenly winning world class races :roll:

curium

eh wrote:

I'm not blaming them as such just surprised how naive they were with a rider going from pretty much no-where to winning major races. As others have alluded even some in Sky thought it was dodgy.

His early results don't suggest anything major talent wise, just fairly decent UK pro-am level and then suddenly in 2011 and then more so in 2012 he is suddenly winning world class races :roll:

I can't help wondering if EPO could do that for me...

raymondliu

Gazzaputt wrote:

Binge drinker and doper on £22k per year? Spreading himself very thin then.

He was on £22k at Sky? Thought salary levels for domestiques at World Tour teams were double that.

RichN95.

raymondliu wrote:

Gazzaputt wrote:

Binge drinker and doper on £22k per year? Spreading himself very thin then.

He was on £22k at Sky? Thought salary levels for domestiques at World Tour teams were double that.

No, that was his Endura pay.

ddraver

Guess that I'm the only one thinking that 4 glasses of wine, a few shots and a GnT or so is not that big a deal for the night one signs a life changing contract then..?

Pross

ddraver wrote:

Guess that I'm the only one thinking that 4 glasses of wine, a few shots and a GnT or so is not that big a deal for the night one signs a life changing contract then..?

Not normally but if you were taking part in a world championship race a few days later? Plus the amounts quoted seem to suggest a higher intake than that.

Art Vandelay

Pross wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Guess that I'm the only one thinking that 4 glasses of wine, a few shots and a GnT or so is not that big a deal for the night one signs a life changing contract then..?

Not normally but if you were taking part in a world championship race a few days later? Plus the amounts quoted seem to suggest a higher intake than that.

The UKAD findings clearly explain whether JTL did or did not go on this 'binge' is irrelevant. The blood values were manipulated and wouldn't have been affected by the case built up by JTL's defense.

raymondliu

ddraver wrote:

Guess that I'm the only one thinking that 4 glasses of wine, a few shots and a GnT or so is not that big a deal for the night one signs a life changing contract then..?

He said 33 units so that's double the units behind the figures you quoted there

mfin

curium wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Did he really expect people to believe that a cyclist could drink that much booze?

twitter

Edit... sorry could not see or did not see the date.

mfin

So, this really needs a second thread, because the booze is a fairy story excuse as per Contador's steak one. Forget all the booze talk on this one.

Thread two... general drinking thread, is 33 units a lot to drink? Note that in cooking lager, for example Fosters, that is about 13 pints.

Pokerface

33 units equate to about 2.5 litres of wine. Which isn't a HUGE amount - but it's a LOT to be drinking 3 days before the World Championships, especially if you're a small guy like JTL.

ddraver

Guess the BRPR team at Richard Moore's Book Launch may have made more of an impact on the free bar that we thought...

tailwindhome

Pokerface wrote:

33 units equate to about 2.5 litres of wine. Which isn't a HUGE amount - but it's a LOT to be drinking 3 days before the World Championships, especially if you're a small guy like JTL.

Yeah - But you're Irish.

2.5 litres is 3 1/3 bottles - that's a lot in anyone's book

Pokerface

TailWindHome wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

33 units equate to about 2.5 litres of wine. Which isn't a HUGE amount - but it's a LOT to be drinking 3 days before the World Championships, especially if you're a small guy like JTL.

Yeah - But you're Irish.

2.5 litres is 3 1/3 bottles - that's a lot in anyone's book

These days 3 glasses of wine would do me in, let alone 3 bottles!

squired

Presumably it would be relatively easy to replicate the result, albeit in controlled conditions to demonstrate that his theory had merit. However, given that the data seems to suggest doping I'm not certain why they needed to wait so long before doing anything. In fact, should the UCI have not gone to Sky before the end of that year to indicate that his initial blood reading showed serious abnormalities? I can understand the dehydration theory, but my knowledge of haematology is somewhat lacking compared to my student days, so I'm not sure how exactly it would have reduced his reticulocyte levels so much given that dehydration would have in theory increased them along with his erythrocyte count.

Lanterne_Rogue

Just read the decision. I particularly enjoy the repeated observation that it's not what they'd expect to see from a 'professional' athlete - am I the only one to suspect a large degree of snark in this?

DeVlaeminck

TailWindHome wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

33 units equate to about 2.5 litres of wine. Which isn't a HUGE amount - but it's a LOT to be drinking 3 days before the World Championships, especially if you're a small guy like JTL.

Yeah - But you're Irish.

2.5 litres is 3 1/3 bottles - that's a lot in anyone's book

Yeah unless you are a regular drinker it's a huge amount. I remember during the 86 world cup three of us had about 5 pints of snakebite each (well we were teenagers) then went back to a house to watch an England match and got through a full bottle of his parents' whisky, then a full bottle of vodka and then a bottle of Pimms as that was all he had left in the drinks cabinet. I reckon that's about the same amount JTL is claiming to have drunk. That was Friday night and I was still being sick Sunday tea time - we walked back to mine and I had to call the parents of the other two as they were incapable of getting home unaided.

argyllflyer

squired wrote:

Presumably it would be relatively easy to replicate the result, albeit in controlled conditions to demonstrate that his theory had merit. However, given that the data seems to suggest doping I'm not certain why they needed to wait so long before doing anything. In fact, should the UCI have not gone to Sky before the end of that year to indicate that his initial blood reading showed serious abnormalities? I can understand the dehydration theory, but my knowledge of haematology is somewhat lacking compared to my student days, so I'm not sure how exactly it would have reduced his reticulocyte levels so much given that dehydration would have in theory increased them along with his erythrocyte count.

The first dodgy reading would mean nothing unless compared to blood later collected. Was more blood was taken in 2012? Or was it not until 2013 season began that they took more?

Lanterne_Rogue

argyllflyer wrote:

squired wrote:

Presumably it would be relatively easy to replicate the result, albeit in controlled conditions to demonstrate that his theory had merit. However, given that the data seems to suggest doping I'm not certain why they needed to wait so long before doing anything. In fact, should the UCI have not gone to Sky before the end of that year to indicate that his initial blood reading showed serious abnormalities? I can understand the dehydration theory, but my knowledge of haematology is somewhat lacking compared to my student days, so I'm not sure how exactly it would have reduced his reticulocyte levels so much given that dehydration would have in theory increased them along with his erythrocyte count.

The first dodgy reading would mean nothing unless compared to blood later collected. Was more blood was taken in 2012? Or was it not until 2013 season began that they took more?

The full document detailing the decision suggests that there were four more samples taken over the next five months to build up a longitudinal profile, and it took until September next year for three experts to review it and conclude that the first result was dodgy.

I think quite a few people were expecting the cause to have been an earlier test suddenly looking suspect - the surprise is that he was still at it so close to the end of the season.

joelsim

There are about 3 units in a pint of lager, 2 in a small glass of wine and 1 per measure of spirit.

So, 33 units is 11 pints, approx 2 bottles of wine.

No doubt it wasn't helped by the EPO which probably helped the alcohol to get to his brain more efficiently.

rob churchill

argyllflyer wrote:

squired wrote:

Presumably it would be relatively easy to replicate the result, albeit in controlled conditions to demonstrate that his theory had merit. However, given that the data seems to suggest doping I'm not certain why they needed to wait so long before doing anything. In fact, should the UCI have not gone to Sky before the end of that year to indicate that his initial blood reading showed serious abnormalities? I can understand the dehydration theory, but my knowledge of haematology is somewhat lacking compared to my student days, so I'm not sure how exactly it would have reduced his reticulocyte levels so much given that dehydration would have in theory increased them along with his erythrocyte count.

The first dodgy reading would mean nothing unless compared to blood later collected. Was more blood was taken in 2012? Or was it not until 2013 season began that they took more?

Well, no. In this case the first reading was 'wildly abnormal' for any human being, and it stands on its own as evidence of doping.

His haemoglobin was extremely high, and his reticulocyte count (new red cells, not yet matured) was extremely low. This is what you expect to see in someone who has recently finished a course of EPO, or who has had a recent transfusion. The EPO/transfusion increases the haematocrit and amount of haemoglobin, but because the body now has a surplus of red blood cells it stops producing new ones, so the reticulocyte count goes very low (from being very high while the EPO is stimulating new red cell production)

JTL claimed that the binge drinking followed by ~32hours without taking water (which is less believable than the binge) dehydrated him and so concentrated his blood, causing the high haemoglobin. He also claimed that the toxic effect of the alcohol temporarily prevented red cell production in his bone marrow, causing the low reticulocyte count.

The WADA experts countered that while alcohol does dehydrate you, it doesn't result in a reduction of blood plasma volume and so doesn't cause the concentration of blood. And they also showed that even a course of chemotherapy couldn't cause as dramatic and rapid cessation of red cell production as he's attributing to alcohol poisoning. So no part of his defence was credible.

rob churchill

Interestingly, the UKAD report says that Sky did their own test just two days after the test on which JTL was convicted. The OFF score in the official test was 155, which is 'wildly abnormal' and the Sky test came out at 127. The UKAD report seems to imply that this is below the level that would trigger further investigation, but still quite abnormal.

But I have no familiarity with this test and I have no idea whether the result Sky got (they wouldn't have known the result of the official test at that time) should have rung alarm bells or reassured them.

mroli

I was really hoping there would be a plausible excuse that I could have a bit of sympathy with. Nah. Nothing there for me. Gutted.

disgruntledgoat

mroli wrote:

I was really hoping there would be a plausible excuse that I could have a bit of sympathy with. Nah. Nothing there for me. Gutted.

I hope he tells UKAD what he did, how and with who.

I also hope somebody is looking after him.

joelsim

disgruntledgoat wrote:

mroli wrote:

I was really hoping there would be a plausible excuse that I could have a bit of sympathy with. Nah. Nothing there for me. Gutted.

I hope he tells UKAD what he did, how and with who.

I also hope somebody is looking after him.

+1

Jez mon

Joelsim wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

mroli wrote:

I was really hoping there would be a plausible excuse that I could have a bit of sympathy with. Nah. Nothing there for me. Gutted.

I hope he tells UKAD what he did, how and with who.

I also hope somebody is looking after him.

+1

Plus another. He hasn't got anything to gain by keeping quiet surely

danlikesbikes

Jez mon wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

mroli wrote:

I was really hoping there would be a plausible excuse that I could have a bit of sympathy with. Nah. Nothing there for me. Gutted.

I hope he tells UKAD what he did, how and with who.

I also hope somebody is looking after him.

+1

Plus another. He hasn't got anything to gain by keeping quiet surely

Not being sarcastic but would it help or hinder him in the eyes of any team if he fess'd up who/what/when/where/why or are teams shallow that as long as he wasn't using anything banned whilst riding for them then they'd happily sign a coming back rider?

Pross

Well there's not a shortage of doped riders who got taken back after their ban ran out. Often with the same team! JTL is finished though, not enough history at top level and too old.