J T-L

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Comments

  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,436
    adr82 wrote:
    r0bh wrote:
    For those who don't want to read it all: 2 year ban starting from Jan 1 2014, disqualified from his results in the ToB and WCs in 2012 and fined £15K+.

    That's not really the interesting bit though. JTL's defence is that he had a massive binge drinking session 2 days before the test that showed abnormalities, and it was subsequent dehydration/alcohol poisoning that caused the strange values. It strikes me that it would be reasonably straightforward to reproduce these circumstances under controlled conditions to provide firm evidence to submit to the tribunal? That they didn't do this speaks volumes to me...
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,182
    ^If someone else pays, I'm up for a night out in Bristol.
  • Paulie W
    Paulie W Posts: 1,492
    r0bh wrote:

    A pretty interesting read. He argued that he got very very drunk two days before the test and three days before the WCs when celebrating his new Sky Contract with his girlfriend. This substantial alcohol consumption and resulting dehydration explained both the irregularities in the ABP according to the haematologist who acted as his expert. The panel didnt accept the dehydration story as this seems to have required him not to drink for 24 hours+ while suffering a hangover (and just in advance of the WCs), nor did they accept his expert's argument which did not stand up to scientific scrutiny from the 'prosecution' experts.
  • Paulie W
    Paulie W Posts: 1,492
    RichN95 wrote:
    Did he really expect people to believe that a cyclist could drink that much booze?

    It was the mixing of wine, gin and vodka that I didnt buy.
  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,436
    Paulie W wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Did he really expect people to believe that a cyclist could drink that much booze?

    It was the mixing of wine, gin and vodka that I didnt buy.

    I just don't see why if this is your defence against a charge that is going to end your career why not reproduce the circumstances under lab conditions to get some proper evidence that a binge drinking session can skew the blood values as observed. Without this it stands up about as well as Bertie's dodgy steak/Tyler's vanishing twin as an excuse.
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,182
    The other interesting bits are:

    He thought that 1 1/2 bottles of wine plus chasers was a good idea 2 days before his debut (and 19th place) at the worlds; and his gross income for 2012 was £22k. Rather an expensive night out.

    This case is most interesting because it is based on the anomoly of his first blood value (followed by normal subsequents). He may have thought that this would mean he couldn't be nicked on a adverse if he had no established passport (and indeed this was part of the defense) and this case sets a precedent I think.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    The other interesting bits are:

    He thought that 1 1/2 bottles of wine plus chasers was a good idea 2 days before his debut (and 19th place) at the worlds; and his gross income for 2012 was £22k. Rather an expensive night out.
    And at Clifton prices too.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • dave milne
    dave milne Posts: 703
    Secret pro doesn't mince his words on this subject

    http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/08/the-s ... er-season/
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    If he is telling the truth, either he is an alcoholic or he is incredibly stupid and unprofessional. It's a shame - I was behind him but I think that now my mind has swung.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • Art Vandelay
    Art Vandelay Posts: 1,982
    This just about scrapes in to the top 20 for worst excuses for being nailed as a doper. Shame for all those like Zak Dempster still defending him.
  • Paulie W
    Paulie W Posts: 1,492
    I'm trying to imagine how this worked. He gets told he has abnormal values from that test. Assuming he knows this is a result of doping: does he then seek out an expert to come up with possible ways of explaining this that dont involve doping and the alcohol binge story is born? Does he go to an expert saying that he actually went on an alcohol binge just before the test hoping that it can be used as a defence and said expert finds some ultimately limited evidence to support this?
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    The other interesting bits are:

    He thought that 1 1/2 bottles of wine plus chasers was a good idea 2 days before his debut (and 19th place) at the worlds; and his gross income for 2012 was £22k. Rather an expensive night out.

    This case is most interesting because it is based on the anomoly of his first blood value (followed by normal subsequents). He may have thought that this would mean he couldn't be nicked on a adverse if he had no established passport (and indeed this was part of the defense) and this case sets a precedent I think.

    It should also put an end to those who continued to use this as "evidence" that Sky are doping (but no doubt they'll find a way to twist it to their point of view).

    It also shows how difficult it can be to recruit with confidence from the lower echelons as there is no baseline to work with.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    Paulie W wrote:
    I'm trying to imagine how this worked. He gets told he has abnormal values from that test. Assuming he knows this is a result of doping: does he then seek out an expert to come up with possible ways of explaining this that dont involve doping and the alcohol binge story is born? Does he go to an expert saying that he actually went on an alcohol binge just before the test hoping that it can be used as a defence and said expert finds some ultimately limited evidence to support this?

    There was a documentary on dubious 'expert witnesses' recently with undercover filming (I think it was someone claiming to have been caught badger baiting) and the expert was basically saying 'now, if this had happened then you would have a strong defence. Is that what happened?'. Obviously, I'm not saying that this is what happened here and I'm sure the expert gave an honest opinion based on what he had been told but it will always be an issue with an expert witness process where each side is paying the fee of their person.
  • nic_77
    nic_77 Posts: 929
    This just about scrapes in to the top 20 for worst excuses for being nailed as a doper.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaShawn_Me ... d_Champion
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Floyd Landis and Dennis Mitchell (US athlete) both blamed binge drinking for positive tests too.

    For Mitchell it was 'five bottles of beer'
    For Landis a couple beers and shots of Jack Daniels
    For Tiernan-Locke it was a bottle and half of wine, six or seven gins before moving on to the vodka.

    It just goes to show that Brits and Americans have very different ideas as to what a 'binge' is.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • narbs
    narbs Posts: 593
    Any reason why the daily leader's testing at the ToB didn't include EPO testing?
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,182
    nic_77 wrote:
    This just about scrapes in to the top 20 for worst excuses for being nailed as a doper.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaShawn_Me ... d_Champion

    :D
  • mechanism
    mechanism Posts: 891
    edited August 2014
    That point about the defence expert witness is interesting
    Dr. Hampton... is clearly a very experienced and knowledgeable haematologist, but he does not have the depth of experience or expertise in the field of blood doping possessed by the experts deployed against him

    Perhaps not surprising then that he didn't come up with a very credible defence.
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    I thought it was test for doping, not alcohol.

    Surely you can get absolutely hammered and still pass the test, in the case that you are clean, mind.
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,182
    narbs wrote:
    Any reason why the daily leader's testing at the ToB didn't include EPO testing?

    Was only cat 1, becomes HC this year.
    Little (no?) blood testing below HC.
  • Jez mon
    Jez mon Posts: 3,809
    You can test for EPO in urine though as far as i know.

    I'm still kinda surprised he was (presumably) doping so late into the year. Why not stop when you've made a name for yourself, and presumably signed the big contract...
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,182
    Yes, you are right, I should have typed 'EPO' rather than blood.
    EPO glow times are short and probably wouldn't of shown anyway, because by the time red cell counts are up the EPO has mostly gone, this is why passports are needed. The panel conclude that it was probaly EPO and/or blood doping.

    Detection for epo is technically more difficult than for eg steroids, and isn't usually done at lower levels.
  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,436
    Jez mon wrote:
    You can test for EPO in urine though as far as i know.

    I'm still kinda surprised he was (presumably) doping so late into the year. Why not stop when you've made a name for yourself, and presumably signed the big contract...

    His contract with Sky was negotiated after his ToB win (see para 26 in the final decision)
  • Jez mon
    Jez mon Posts: 3,809
    r0bh wrote:
    Jez mon wrote:
    You can test for EPO in urine though as far as i know.

    I'm still kinda surprised he was (presumably) doping so late into the year. Why not stop when you've made a name for yourself, and presumably signed the big contract...

    His contract with Sky was negotiated after his ToB win (see para 26 in the final decision)

    IIRC he was linked before... I'm sure he could have had a dip in form towards the end of the season and still have had a very impressive season!
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • eh
    eh Posts: 4,854
    Well it's all a little sad and was obviously never going to come to a happy conclusion. The excuse as others have noted is fairly pathetic. I'm just still amazed the alarm bells didn't ring loud for Sky before they signed him. Maybe it's my cynical nature, but if something is too good to be true then it usually is.
  • narbs
    narbs Posts: 593
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    Yes, you are right, I should have typed 'EPO' rather than blood.
    EPO glow times are short and probably wouldn't of shown anyway, because by the time red cell counts are up the EPO has mostly gone, this is why passports are needed. The panel conclude that it was probaly EPO and/or blood doping.

    Detection for epo is technically more difficult than for eg steroids, and isn't usually done at lower levels.

    Cheers, I was just a little surprised.
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    eh wrote:
    Well it's all a little sad and was obviously never going to come to a happy conclusion. The excuse as others have noted is fairly pathetic. I'm just still amazed the alarm bells didn't ring loud for Sky before they signed him. Maybe it's my cynical nature, but if something is too good to be true then it usually is.

    Yes, but its really easy to be wise after the event. He has been a talented athlete for a long time, its not like he sprang from nowhere and won a monument.
    He cheated to get a contract, he was found out, and now he has been sacked. Nothing more to say realy. Trying hard to blame Sky for something that he did before they got him is a bit rich. :roll:
  • curium
    curium Posts: 815
    RichN95 wrote:
    Did he really expect people to believe that a cyclist could drink that much booze?

    twitter
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    RichN95 wrote:
    Floyd Landis and Dennis Mitchell (US athlete) both blamed binge drinking for positive tests too.

    For Mitchell it was 'five bottles of beer'
    For Landis a couple beers and shots of Jack Daniels
    For Tiernan-Locke it was a bottle and half of wine, six or seven gins before moving on to the vodka.

    It just goes to show that Brits and Americans have very different ideas as to what a 'binge' is.

    Haha.
    People in this country drinking like that and mix and match grape and grain is pretty stupid.
    Is it beer o clock yet :roll:
    Contador is the Greatest
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    curium wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Did he really expect people to believe that a cyclist could drink that much booze?

    twitter

    Lol sounds like he has a problem. Maybe he was driving his vauxhall corsa with batman body kit at the time.
    Contador is the Greatest